This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Metalworking methods and great tips are included for various types of steel and common metals. Also discussed are tips for uncommon metals. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. 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(c) Copyright 2003 - 2015 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== From: bonkers Date: Tue Feb 8, 2000 11:05am Subject: Re: brass chip troubles Original Message----- From: Keith Yundt kyundtx~xxj... >Last night I was machining a brass cylinder for a brass model manhole I >am making, and ran into something I have not experienced before. The >brass is not typical 360, I think it is much harder but don't know the >exact type--It is actually pipe. I had it gripped from the inside with >the 3jaw chuck on one end, and the steady rest about 6" down the bed, >and was machining close to it but the chips kept imbedding themselves >in the finish and making it all rough. The best I could do was feed >very quickly and make deeper cuts, which helped, but did not eliminate >the problem. I tried both HSS and carbide bits, and the carbide worked >best by far. In the end I used emery cloth to get it smooth. Is this >problem just the type of brass I am using? The pipe is about 2" in >diameter. Maybe my steady rest was just not tight enough? On a more >positive note, I finally got my milling attachment for the lathe and >just love it. The vertical lock works well, and I am very happy with >the quality of it. The only thing I didn't like was on the rotary >column attachment there is a little plastic magnifier, which I found to >be rather hard to read, so I made a little aluminum wedge with a mark >on it instead. Thanks again, Keith. Keith.....The pipe you're using is most likely 'schedule 40'. Not really suitable for machining. Take care, J.B. Neiswander ------- From: Rich Dean Date: Tue Feb 8, 2000 12:32pm Subject: Re: brass chip troubles Keith: Brass pipe is made of "Red Brass". You must use a cutting fluid as it is a gummy metal to machine like softer alloys of aluminum. I use dark thread cutting oil for lube, but WD-40 may work too. Rich D. ------- From: Dan statman Date: Tue Feb 8, 2000 4:37pm Subject: Re: Source for aircraft grade titanium needed [sherline] >Dan there is a web site called www.titanium.com they claim to have it >many forms. Saw your web site,is that stuff as hard to machine as i've >heard? good luck steve It certainly is harder to machine than 316 stainless, but not impossible. On a 1" outside diameter you can turn about 0.005" at a time. It gives a nice finish as long as the tool is properly sharpened. I form my own tools from 5% Co HSS blanks. They work pretty well, but you have to keep them sharp. I just ordered the 3/8" tool holder from Sherline to accept the insert style cutters, and I might get some longer life that way. The eBay thing for the stock titanium doesn't work, since nobody ever puts up uniform bar stock, keyword titanium on the search list gives a bunch of hits for golf club, baseball cards, etc. etc., so its not really feasible that way. titanium.com won't sell small quantities. I have used Titanium Industries before, but they have a $300 minimum order, and I just need a few small pieces for now. Dan. ------- From: Dan statman Date: Sat Mar 4, 2000 1:35pm Subject: Re: Aircraft Titanium supply source Tom, The aircraft grade is sometimes called grade 5 and it is an alloy consisting of 6%Al and 4%Vanadium (also called 6-4 titanium). This grade is the hardest grade, it is stronger than steel and as light as aluminum. Pure titanium, Grade 2, is available at 99.9% purity. It is not as hard as grade 5, but it is hard. Grade 2 titanium is very abrasive and it is much more difficult to obtain a clean machine cut. Although grade 5 is harder than grade 2 it is not as abrasive and produces very clean cuts when the tooling is sharp. I prefer to grind my own tool bits and I use 1/4" HSS with 5% Cobalt. These last a reasonably long time, and they are easy to resharpen and custom grind. A Sherline lathe can only shave about 0.005" of aircraft titanium in a single pass. Titanium Industries does have a web site, search at Yahoo (or another search engine) I cannot remember the URL. They have a $350 minimum order. ------- From: Rich D. Date: Tue Sep 12, 2000 12:58pm Subject: Re: Black anodizing of aluminum Tony Zampini wrote: > >From reading other posts, I see that some of you are > doing black anodizing of aluminum. Can anyone doing > this please teach me how to do it? Is it a dangerous > job? Is there any good information on anodizing on > the web? Thank you Tony, there are many articles on the web about this. Try Metal Web News http://www.metalwebnews.com/ and the "r.c.m. dropbox": http://www.metalworking.com/ I have 2 articles that seem very well detailed that I can e/m to you. They are about 300kb total. Let me know off list. I have done anodizing here a lot. Not a particularly dangerous procedure, no worse than driving a car. A little battery fluid and a power supply and some metal bits is about most of it. Rich D. ------- From: Flosi Gudmundsson Date: Tue Sep 12, 2000 1:36pm Subject: Re: Black anodizing of aluminum Try these links. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Galaxy/7004/ http://www.ptw.com/~gsxr1100/anodize2.html http://www.atmpage.com/anode.html http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrish/t-anodis.htm Flosi ------- From: Rogerio Odriozola Date: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:04pm Subject: Re: Black anodizing of aluminum I used the method in this link, it worked very good. The only difference is I used a car battery and fixed resistors instead of a battery charger. I would not try using a battery without some kind of fuse or resistor as shorting it could destroy it. The other problem is dyes, black is the most difficult color to obtain with cheap dyes. http://archive.dstc.edu.au/BDU/staff/ron/meng/anodizing.html Hope it helps. Rogerio Odriozola ------- From: Steve Tarvin Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 6:07pm Subject: which alloy ? I have a question which I know someone in this group will be able to help me with.I am makeing a boring bar holder for my logan lathe which will be a square cube 2.5 inches. I want to use steel but my experiance with steel is limited can someone recommend an alloy which is machinable yet tough enough to hold threads and not get to dinged up. Your help would be appreciated. Thanks steve ------- From: Marcus & Eva Date: Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:20pm Subject: Re: which alloy ? Hi Steve: For easiest machining, get a chunk of 12L14 "leadloy". If you want something a bit tougher, use leaded 4140. If you want it really tough, P20 is a good choice. Good luck Marcus ------- Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 06:20:57 GMT From: "robert B" Subject: Turning cast iron ????? I am having a devil of a time trying to turn down to size a flywheel for a subaru ea-81 aircraft redrive conversion. The wheel appears to be grey cast iron. And when I turn the damned thing, the surface will dull a hi-speed, or cobalt tool bit, to a dull nub in about 30 seconds. Once I break through the rough cast surface, I get into better iron, which means that my tool bits might last a minute, rather than 30 seconds. I've literally destroyed two tool bit blanks so far, and they dull so fast that I don't even hone them...just grind them and go to it. Sparks everywhere when I turn the cast, and the bit turns blue and chips almost instantly. I assume there are some inclusions in the metal...though, I cannot see any. (good Japanese steel too...) Question, are there any tool bits that will cut this stuff? Are any techniques that I can use to cut it? This is becoming a real pain in the ass. Bob ------- Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 03:29:14 EST From: BestRushx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Turning cast iron ????? try a carbide cutter slow speed and feed , either an insert or brazed should work ------- Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 22:45:22 EST From: PATDKx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Turning cast iron ????? Flywheels should be ground not turned. They develop some very hard spots, sometimes the entire clutch disc surface, from frictional heating and rapid cooling. They also need a smooth surface (32 micro inch or less) for best grip and disc life. Grinding on a Blanchard or an old Van Norman flywheel grinder is the best way to resurface a flywheel. Pat ------- Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:43:29 -0000 From: steambikex~xxhotmail.com Subject: simple cylinder for steam engine Some one had a question about boring or reaming a steam engine cylinder. I've made a lot of the little engines, before I had reamers and such, I would buy the brass tubing from the K&S hobby displays at any Ace hardware store, to line the inside of a cylinder after I over size drilled it. It can be soft soldered into the cylinder or use lock-tight. Works like a champ. Paul ------- Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:10:52 -0000 From: steambikex~xxhotmail.com Subject: PS. simple steam cylinder This same tubing can be used to make bushings for the crank arms. I also keep some of the aluminum tubing on hand to aline two parts that I want to solder together. Solder dosen't stick to the alum. and can be removed after the parts cool. Paul ------- Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 19:28:01 -0600 From: Jim Irwin Subject: Re: 12L14 CRs Todd Williams wrote: > CRS is corrosion Resistant Steel (stainless steel) can be very soft.. CRS means cold rolled steel. 12L14 is low alloy medium carbon (0.14% C) leaded for machineability. CRS is identifiable by being somewhat shiny as received, where HF (Hot finished) steel (typically the architectural/ structural shapes) are nearly black with scale from being rolled to shape while red hot. Best regards, Jim Irwin ------- Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 18:08:31 -0500 From: Reames Subject: Re: Re:12L14 Hi All, After the discussions regarding the 12L14, I bought some today at our local steel plant. Now I have a LOT! I got some 1" hex, and 1/2" round & it does cut like butter and threads beautifully. Beats the heck out of the old steel blower shafts I have been using. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion, Now I gotta figure out what to do with 12FT each! Mike in cold wet Ohio Atlas 3990 ------- Mike: Just for the record, 12L14 is definitely not corrosion resistant steel. It is a carbon class steel and will rust as fast as any steel. In order to attain corrosion resistance it would need nickel and chromium (stainless steel). bill Burky, Orrville,Ohio ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:25:09 -0500 From: "Rich D." Subject: Re: Metal Ordering Question dqrwagonerx~xxcompuserve.com wrote: > I am trying to find a source that carries the "Lead-Alloy" steel. I > think that the Taig arbor blanks are made of it. I was on the Metals- > Online site that the Sherline site points to and they have something > called CF 1018. Is this the same steel?. Also, are the prices at this > site reasonable? Is there a better site that I should be looking at, > or is this site typical of all small-quanity online metal suppliers? > I like how the arbors cut on the lathe so I would like to get more > to make "stuff" out of. Thank You Dave Wagoner Dave, CF = Cold Finished = cold rolled. 1018 is ordinary mild steel. Leaded steels = free machining, such as alloy 12L14 (.15/.35% lead). Goes by many trade names. There are several free machining alloys such as 1212, 1213, 1215 and 1117. 1117 (resulferized) is a good substitute for leaded steel. Rich D. ------- Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 16:49:25 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Metal Ordering Question Dave, Lead alloy steel or "Lead-loy" (12L14) is used extensively in Sherline tools because it cuts well, takes a nice finish and can be hardened later if you desire. Sherline sells a chuck blank which is a threaded but unfinished hunk of 12L14 steel 2.5" dia. x 1-5/16" as P/N 3070. The #1 Morse Blank P/N 3055 is also made from 12L14 Lead-loy. These will save you some setup time but most people just order a raw hunk and turn it down themselves and save some money. Near the top of the "resources" page at www.sherline.com/resource.htm you will find a list of 7 or 8 other suppliers of metal in small quantities in addition to OnLineMetals.com. Shop around. Craig Libuse Sherline ------- [INFO FROM www.rodchuck.com THAT MAKES TWO STAGE DIES FOR THREADING WELDING ROD FOR 2-56 AND 4-40 FOR SMALL MODEL AIRCRAFT PUSHRODS] What are welding rods? Welding rods are lengths of mild steel that are used to fill the welds created in ox-acetylene welding or a type of welding known as "gas shield arc welding". Generically the rods are called "filler metals". We have had a number of people question the quality of these rods. These rods are very carefully controlled in their composition and quality. The reason is that they are used by bonded welders that must certify the quality of the work. What types are there? Rods typically come in 1/16", 3/32", 1/8" and 3/16". For use with RODCHUCK, we are interested only in the 3/32" for 2-56 and 1/8" for 4-40. Pick up some of the other sizes they are quite useful in other applications. The most useful material is mild steel called ER 70S-3. The secret decoder ring is shown in the attached diagram for what this means. The important number is the 70, which denotes 70,000 psi of tensile strength. Without a lecture in strength of materials suffice it to say this is good. ER 70S-3 ER MEANS Electrode or Rod 70 Tensile in ksi S Solid -3 Chemical composition and shielding gas ER 80S-D2 ER MEANS Electrode or Rod 80 Tensile in ksi S Solid -D2 Chemical composition ------- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 01:22:02 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Milling Cheap Steel beepeenacanx~xxaol.com wrote: > Any tips for getting a good cut on steel conduit? I am using the milling attatchment on the lathe to do some work on a landing gear for a 1/2 size airplane. Simple work, some 2" slots , nothing major, but they must be SMOOTH for good operation. I am getting fairly good results going thru one wall at a time ( all the way thru)- but I get some tearing(?) along the edges that must be filed off, as any burrs will interfere with the action of the gear. Should i not try to go all the way through in 1 pass? I am going slow at the slow pulley...the inside of the cut is Very smooth... What am I doing wrong (besides using the conduit!!)? Thanks, Brad < Brad; Thanks, I now have a new material to put on my list of things not to consider for use in projects unless there is just nothing else available! To see what you were talking about, an 8 inch piece of 1/2 inch EMT was cut off and mounted up using a V block in my homemade screwless vise. My mill is a Grizzly G1006, about 660 lbs worth with 2 HP. Using a 3/16 two flute EM in a 3/8 EM holder, I burned the sucker in a heartbeat at about 1000 RPM. Switched to a 1/4 inch 2 flute EM in the same holder and dropped the speed to 465 RPM. One pass was made at about 10 thou depth to get through the skin, subsequent passes at about 15 thou per pass, using heavy cutting oil. Once the slot was cut through, a minor deburring with a swivel deburring tool cleaned it up just fine. The work wanted to grab and bang about to the point I snugged the gibs more than typically needed, and 30 to 50 thou cuts in steel are not a rarity around here. Nasty stuff to machine! Based on this, I don't know if you can get a rigid enough setup using a lathe with milling attachment to get good results. Having to deburr work after milling is pretty common, but this stuff is a pig. Looking at the piping on the surface, I thing the material has lots of work hardened spots from the drawing process. The swarf was nasty little crumbly bits of stuff, not the sort of swarf I typically get in milling operations. As the cutting was consistently lousy throughout the cut, embrittlement of the surface from the galvanizing process or pickling isn't a likely cause, it just seems a lousy material to work with. Perhaps a nice 6061 aluminum tubing would be a better bet if you can get a thick enough wall to meet your loading requirements. Combined with some nice squishy tires to reduce the shock if you set it down hard it might work, but my largest RC plane only has a 6 foot wingspan, so you're out of my league! From your post I'm guessing this is a sprung suspension, if the calculations were made based on the weight of steel tubing you would likely have to change your spring rate or tension a bit. If anyone has some tips on machining this stuff please share them, I'm sure curious. Thanks, Stan ------- Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:37:27 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Milling Cheap Steel I just ran a test as well on 1/2" conduit. Using a new, sharp HSS endmill (made in USA) 5/16" dia. I plunged into the conduit and cut a 2" slot. I flooded the work with "Cool Tool II", my current oil of choice, and I had absolutely no problems. This was running on the 3rd step of the pulley, 1K+ rpms, on the new Taig mill (beefy column). So it seems that possibly: 1) Perhaps the piece of conduit I had was of a better quality than what you guys were using (possible, as my scraps may be over 5-10 years old). 2) Are you guys using sharp, new, endmills? 3) The oil I'm using may help (although Stan used pipe oil, so?) I bet it's #1, and there is really crappy conduit these days. Perhaps a tour of the local scrap yard will net a better quality of conduit, or? See our web pages http://www.casco.net/~felice ------- Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:39:01 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Milling Cheap Steel Having reread the post, part of the problem is that the conduit thins and leaves a large burr - after deburring, the slot should be clean. Do you have one of those nifty swivel deburring tools? See our web pages http://www.casco.net/~felice ------- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 02:57:18 -0400 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Milling Cheap Steel Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein wrote: >I just ran a test as well on 1/2" conduit. Using a new, sharp HSS endmill >(made in USA) 5/16" dia. I plunged into the conduit and cut a 2" slot. I >flooded the work with "Cool Tool II", my current oil of choice, and I had >absolutely no problems. This was running on the 3rd step of the pulley, >1K+ rpms, on the new Taig mill (beefy column). So it seems that possibly: >1) Perhaps the piece of conduit I had was of a better quality than what >you guys were using (possible, as my scraps may be over 5-10 years old). >2) Are you guys using sharp, new, endmills? >3) The oil I'm using may help (although Stan used pipe oil, so?) >I bet it's #1, and there is really crappy conduit these days. Perhaps a >tour of a local scrap yard will net better quality conduit, or? Nick; I hope it's that your conduit is a better quality, although the stuff I used is probably 5+ years old. The 1/4 inch EM used isn't new, but looks to be in good shape, no rounded corners, sharp to the fingertip, and cuts well in other chunks of steel. It may well be that it isn't sharp enough to give good results on such thin stuff. I'll have a try with a new or freshly sharpened one Tuesday. The 5/16 EM you used would also be a bit more rigid than a 1/4 inch one, by a bit more than 25% as a rough approximation. The oil used was Mitee cutting oil, which typically gives pretty good results on steel. While flood isn't available here, the cutter was running in a nice pool of oil, not just a film. While playing with this stuff Tuesday, I'll try both Tapmagic and some edge lube and pass on the results. From your posting am I correct in thinking that you plunged through and then cut the slot in a single pass at 1K RPM? I can replicate your conditions first to see if we get similar results, or if in fact we have very different bits of stuff at our respective shops. Did you mount the conduit flat to the table or do the vblock and vise thing? I may have allowed some flex to get into the mix, that would go along with the scorched 3/16 EM that resulted from my first test cut. My eyes were telling me that I was into a chatter cut, but the ears and hand on the wheels didn't detect a problem. I think the 3/16 EM may have flexed and tried to self feed a bit hard. I have very little practice milling thin walled tubing, about the only tubing I've milled is for telescope piers. Quite a bit thicker and larger than 1/2 inch EMT. Stan ------- Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 07:50:57 EDT From: beepeenacanx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Milling Cheap Steel I think that my problem with the conduit is the conduit itself.....I, too have results varying from piece to piece. The results are good enough, but not Perfect. Thank you all for the help!! My tool is the 3/16"er that came w/the TAIG. The inside edge(the important one) is mirror smooth....but ... I think the steel idea is going to be scrapped for a 3/4" or 1" aluminum rod in a 1" or 1 1/4 " tube (alum. 1/8" wall.). Much easier!!! I will keep yall posted, and thanks again, esp. to those who chucked up a piece!!!!!!!!!Brad Yes the gear has a big spring for shock....and mushy 10" tires. The slot limits movement and prevents rotation. ------- Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:19:03 -0700 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Cutting tool steel with a sherline mill Original Message From: jmorrphdx~xxscripps.edu Date: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 > I have to make a replacement part for a lathe from tool steel >to replace a worn out 9" long pinion about 7/8" in diameter. What >should I do to anneal the metal before cutting gear teeth along >its length? How do I machine tool steel and what sort of cutter >should I use? This will be either A-2 or O-2 drill rod. >I have posted essentially the same question on the home_machinist >group, but this list is more active. Any worthwhile suggestions >are appreciated. Thanks, Jim Hi Jim: The tool steels you describe come already annealed. A2 is a better choice than O1 for applications in which stability in and after heat-treat is important. A2 is also good for abrasive conditions but it is not so good for shock resistance. What you want is an air-hardening steel (best stability). H13, 420M, S7 are all good alternatives, and are readily available. (try begging at a local toolroom) You must also ask yourself if you really need a fully hardened part. You could, for example use a prehardened steel such as 4140 or P20. It will be harder to machine, but it will require no heat treatment, so you save both the cost and the bother. You also will avoid the potential problem of distortion. Another alternative is to machine your part from Leadloy or mild steel and get it case hardened. With regard to cutters, HSS tools will do just fine on this job. My preference would be a home-made flycutter. Commercial gear cutters are too limited, too expensive, and too difficult to get for a one-off job. They also don't cut worth a hoot on a Sherline. I'd rough out all the teeth within 0.005" or so, and then grind a new finishing tool and just kiss the part to clean it up. Use Rapidtap or something similar on it and it will work beautifully. The hardest part will be getting a decent profile on the flycutter. A Dremel tool, some patience and a decent template (use the old gear if you can) will be your best friends here. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:33:07 -0700 From: "Marcus" Subject: Re: Re: Cutting tool steel with a sherline mill Hi Jack: Air hardening steels will retain their altered crystal structure, and thus their hardness, even when cooled relatively slowly (in air). This means that the stresses will be less on the steel; consequently, it will distort less. That in turn, means that you will have to do less rework on the steel part after heat treat, in order to get it back to dimensional spec. ------- Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 22:50:45 -0700 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: one other question [TAIG BLANK ARBORS] The blank arbors (arbours to our commonwealth friends) are made of Austrailian (!) free machining steel, which is not stricly hardenable. You can use Kasenit or other case hardening powders to put a hard case on the surface, but you risk warping the arbor when quenching - usually arbors are ground after being hardened, and made oversize on account of that. I wouldn't bother hardening it. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- From: "John Welch" Date: Sun Jul 22, 2001 7:44 pm Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] Metal Sources >Hello group...Anyone have handy an email site or other sources for >round bar stock, bronze, brass, cast iron ...etc >I have checked Metal Express but after going into deep shock over the >price of bronze, I think I need to check around....Definitely need to >get my skills up to speed before I start turning that stuff! Thanks...Ron Try ASAP Source in Ann Arbor Michigan, they have an on-line site, and ordering, and will ship almost anywhere. http://www.asapsource.com/ John Welch ------- From: doogdoogx~xxh... Date: Mon Jul 23, 2001 5:06 pm Subject: Re: Metal Sources Aloha Ron, check out these places: 1) www.shapirosupply.com St. Louis Missouri 2) www.midlandexpressmetals.com 3) www.execpc.com/~metal Mahalo, Howard ------- From: Randy Gordon-Gilmore Date: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [taigtools] Tungsten Hi Jim, At 08:59 PM 6/28/2001 -0000, you wrote: >Anyone know where I can get a short (2") length of Tungsten rod? I've >looked all over. Thanks. What diameter, Jim? TIG welding electrodes are largely tungsten, with other minor alloying additions. Up to about 1/8" diameter. Also, custom dart makers generally use tungsten for the bodies, but I don't know if it's pure tungsten or tungsten-copper alloy. Best regards, Randy ------- From: Tom Benedict Date: Fri Jun 29, 2001 7:31 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] Tungsten > Anyone know where I can get a short (2") length of Tungsten rod? I've > looked all over. Thanks. Actually, yeah! Check at your local movie theaters. Find out what kind of projector they use. See if any of them use arc lamps rather than filament lamps. A friend of a friend who's a projectionist gave me one half of an electrode pair. It's a 1" diameter tungsten rod about 2" long. I wrote to the list about it the day after he gave it to me (close to a year ago). Of course he didn't tell me what it WAS, just said, "Hey, can you cut this?" So I chucked it up and proceeded to dull every tool I had except for a diamond grinding burr that I used on a toolpost grinder. Only tool I had that'd make a mark. I spent the rest of that shop session resharpening all my lathe tools. ;) Neat material! Tom ------- From: Alison & Jim Gregg Date: Sat Jun 30, 2001 4:51 am Subject: Re: [taigtools] Re: Tungsten Sorry to be difficult here but Tungsten metal is NOT particularly difficult to cut or machine!!! At least in the more commonly available forms. Now Tungsten CARBIDE - what the cutting tools are made of, is something else! Most of the comments re Tungsten that I've seen so far are clearly referring to Tungsten carbide, or confusing the Carbide with Tungsten metal. How do I know this - well I spent about 6 months working with the stuff establishing a small manufacturing set up for a client who was custom making competition darts,-( Darts as in throwing at a dartboard). We were usinc 2 Myford 3.5" centre height lathes (7" swing in US terms), and an EMCO (Austrian) CNC 5 - 5" swing CNC lathe which is a just slightly bigger Unimat 3/4, with CNC. Not a very rigid industrial type lathe. We used Tungsten carbide tipped tooling, and ordinary HSS tooling for form tools, and it worked. Mind you, Tungsten is NOT a nice material to cut - you must keep the tool sharp, and cutting at all times - if it rubs the edge goes in seconds, the Tungsten grabs and the tool starts ripping chunks out of the job. Sharp tools and high speeds will give you an acceptably good finish. The Tungsten we used was supplied in short rods from 1/4" to 5/8" diameter about 2.5" long in a choice of alloys - ranging from about 98% Tungsten through 95%, 90%, 85% and 80% - I believe the alloying component was steel. The reason Tungsten is used for darts is its weight - as someone pointed out it is darned heavy. It has a specific gravity of about 20. - Lead is about 11 - so it is nearly twice as heavy as lead for a given size. It works like a rather nasty work hardening steel. I would not use it from choice but it is much better than people fear. If the original person who asked is looking for a piece 1/2" or less in dia I may have one in the material stock. Jim Gregg. ------- From: leon_heller... Date: Tue Jul 10, 2001 7:39 am Subject: Cheap metal I've just been to a scrap metal yard near me, to see if I could pick up anything useful. There were piles of old car engines, transmissions, etc. and lots of machining off-cuts. Most of them were too big for the Taig, but I picked up a couple of 3" dia. rounds of MS, and a length of Al I-section channel for 2 UK pounds. They didn't bother to weigh them, so I should have taken some more. I looked around for old machine tools, but all I could find was a massive 3-jaw chuck, about 10" across. It's a cheap way to build up a stock of metal that might come in useful one day. Leon ------- From: J.C.Beech... Date: Tue Jul 10, 2001 8:55 am Subject: Re: Cheap metal You need to be very carefull picking metal (Steel/Mild) up from scrap. You don't know what the composition is, or how its been heat treated. Best source of high quality alloy I have found are, old lorry or marine engine pistons. Great stuff for small IC engines Joules ------- From: "Craig Libuse" Date: Wed Aug 1, 2001 6:40 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] metal source Gordon, You might try a local machine shop. About every small town has one. They probably have boxes of cutoffs they are sending out for scrap that you could pick through. They can also point you to stuff that is easy to work with. If you try a local scrap yard you might end up with something too tough to cut. See if you can get some 12L14 "leadloy". It machines easily and can be hardened if need be. If you want to buy small quantities of known brass, aluminum, steel, etc. by mail, see our resources pages at www.sherline.com/resource.htm for the names of a number of suppliers that have no minimum order. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 02:45:13 -0000 From: luisguillermo98x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Suggestions for a deep grooving tool In sherline, "Dan Statman" wrote: > I make many repetitive cuts into aircraft grade titanium on my Sherline > lathe. One of my common cuts is a 1-mm wide square groove that is 1-mm > deep. I have been grinding my own grooving tools from 5% Co HSS 1/4" > blanks. This was fine when I was making so many parts. But now I find > that I need a tool with a longer life, and it just takes too long > to make the grooving tools by hand. Can somebody > suggest a CHEAP 3/8" holder (I have the 3/8" tool post holder > already) and type of grooving insert (coated carbide) that will work for > this operation. Ideally the groove should really be between 0.038" and > 0.039", which is slightly less than 1-mm. I could probably get away > with a 1-mm insert if that is all that is available. > My other specification is that the tool must allow very close proximity > to the chuck face, as I tend to work in this area almost exclusively. > I appreciate any and all of your feedback. I would like to spend not > more than about $75. > Thanks, Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs > http://members.rennlist.com/statmandesigns I want to know if you had success working with titanium. How long it took to make the slot you mention above? ------- Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:51:17 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: Re: Suggestions for a deep grooving tool Plenty of success, check out my website in my signature line. I purchased a grooving insert tool holder out of the J&L catalog, it was less than $50. The inserts are $12 apiece, but you get 2 cutting surfaces per insert. Works real well, and I never need to grind those annoying grooving tools myself. Nothing wrong with grinding your own for 10-20 grooves, but for hundreds of them the inserts are the ONLY way to go. Be careful with the titanium chips they are EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE!!!!!! I cannot stress this enough, you cannot be too cautious when machining titanium on a small lathe like the Sherline where the chips are always entangled near the cutting surface which produces extreme heat. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs http://members.rennlist.com/statmandesigns ------- Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:58:44 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: Re: Cutting fluids? I machined my entire Ph.D. apparatus out of 316 stainless. However, I did not use a Sherline lathe. 6/4 Titanium is similar, but it takes some practice to know the limitations of the Sherline. It will be obvious when you have exceeded those limitations, as things will break (tools, chucks, safety glasses, etc.). How deep is your slot going to be? I would purchase about 10 four flute endmills that have a 1/8" shank and a 0.015" cutting diameter. these will flex enough and give you about a 0.018" channel. If you need exact, then take practice cuts and measure what you get and adjust from there. If you cut 0.005" depth at a time you can cut about as fast as you can turn the handwheel (within reason, it's not a race). Your arm will be tired cutting 12" slots 0.005" depth at a time. You will break the first couple of endmills very quickly, but then you will dull the others before they break once you get the feel. the 0.015" endmills are about $15 ea. If you have other titanium specific questions that do not apply to Sherlines please feel free to e-mail me privately. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs http://members.rennlist.com/statmandesigns ------- Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 08:43:40 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: Titanium...From an old-timer... was Suggestions for a deep grooving tool Original Message From: "Craig Chamberlin" > Dan, Luis, > To machine titanium easily, you must use carbide, and cool the part and > the tool with liquid nitrogen. Not freeze it, but cool it down until it > begins cutting nicely. This I learned from an old-time machinist, who > had done a lot of titanium. > I haven't had occasion to do it, but have seen it done. It is an art, > especially on a Sherline. Other liquid gases would work, perhaps even > carbon dioxide, but I would stick with the inert ones. FWIW, Craig Your use of the term inert as it applies to nitrogen is very interesting. Most people would assume that nitrogen is inert as there is only a single metallic element which can be oxidized (in the transfer of electrons type of oxidation, has nothing to do with oxygen gas) by nitrogen in the diatomic state (the naturally occurring form). It just so happens that titanium is that very element. This is one of the reasons it burns so well in air, since the major component of air is nitrogen gas (~79%). The result of this burning of Ti in nitrogen is the compound titanium nitride or TiN, which is used as a tool coating because of its mechanical and heat transfer properties. Here ends the chemistry lesson for the day. On a practical applications note, I have never used liquid nitrogen as a coolant for a machining process. It is just absolutely and completely unnecessary on a Sherline sized project. Carbide tooling works well, but is also not necessary. If you are patient and a good tool grinder, normal HSS tools will work, but 5% cobalt HSS works really quite well. For drilling holes in 6/4 titanium I have not found solid carbide drills to work well at all (as a function of their cost), and cobalt/HSS cuts really easily. If you plan to cut titanium all of the time then buy some good carbide inserts for general turning. I cut only titanium, and I cut it everyday on my Sherline machines. I have never cut any other material, except when making a holding fixture. I have had my 4400 lathe for 3 years, and it is enduring the torture quite well. I never use coolant, and occasionally I will use a cutting oil, but sparingly as it tends to fill my basement with smoke. I really only use the oil when grooving or parting. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs http://members.rennlist.com/statmandesigns P.S. at atmospheric pressure carbon dioxide sublimates and is not available in the liquid state. That is why it is referred to as "dry ice." And carbon dioxide (the most oxidized form of carbon) is an inert gas for virtually all processes (except a few high pressure and high temperature applications, and plant photosynthesis). ------- Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:30:01 -0700 From: "Dale L. Thomas" Subject: Re: Titanium...From an old-timer...was Suggestions for a deep grooving tool Just to throw in my 2 cents. When I was in the Navy in the early Seventys a sales rep from a tool company came to our shop showing us how his wonderful carbide tools could cut through the titanium parts we were always having to machine. My boss who was not impressed showed him how well his HSS drill bits and cutters could cut it like butter. The salesman promptly left the shop! We all had a great laugh! HSS works quite well with Titanium. Dale ------- Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:20:16 -0500 From: "Rich D." Subject: Re: Source for brass? kevin.sedotax~xxps.net wrote: > I'm looking for some brass tubing. I need something with 1" OD and > about 3/4" ID. This will be internal threaded. I've looked at McMaster > -Carr but the only tubing they have in Brass is thin wall. They have > what they call cored round pieces in Bronze but I'd like to stick with > brass. This will be used for a part on a musical instrument. I know I > can get a rod of 1" and bore it out but I would have thought I could > find some sort of thick wall tubing. Anyone know of a source for > this material? Kevin, If 1.05" OD will do there is 3/4" brass pipe. Also 1" decorative brass rails (foot rails/hand rails) can be found. I just got a scrap of 3/4" pipe to make a 1" whistle from. There are many online mailorder metal suppliers. RichD ------- Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:36:36 -0500 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: Link wanted [sherline group] Original Message -- From: Al Schoepp Date: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 12:36 pm > Dan, very nice looking work. How do you get the inlays to stay in the > rings? Do you have any difficulty cutting Titanium with the > sherline? What type of endmill and speed (rpm and feed) do you > find works best? > Al > http://members.rogers.com/schoepp4887/ > At 12:12 PM 11/12/2001 -0500, you wrote: > >Joachim,I believe you are talking about my necklace that is surface > carved out of a solid piece of titanium. I am using a CNC Sherline mill > with a CNC rotary table 4th axis. Picture can be found at: > >http://members.rennlist.com/statmandesigns/Pendant01.jpg > >let me know if you have any further questions. > >Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com Al, I do not discuss my inlay techniques, but I will answer any other questions that you might have. I have had no trouble cutting titanium with a sherline. I do not understand why people would think you couldn't do this. If you have the right cutting tools then the milling machine or lathe does not matter at all. You must go wih very light cuts, generally about 0.005" at a time. My endmills are all solid carbide 4 flute and for surface carved patterns I use a 1/32" ball nose cutter. If I am going to inlay the groove then I use a flat nose cutter. I make multiple passes over the surface to get the carvings to the appropriate depth. I have upgrade the spindle pulleys to the 10,200 RPM maximum sold by Sherline. 2800 RPM is too slow to turn a 1/32" end mill. I do not know the cutter RPM that I use since I have no tachometer, just play with it until it is right. My feed rates are also determined by trial and error and are not accurately measured. It is obvious (at least to me) when the cutter is going to break from too much stress. And at $12-$15 per cutter you learn quickly. Dan ------- Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 16:01:12 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Statman" Subject: Re: Re: Hi-Ti - Re: Link wanted I generally cut without a cutting fluid, as it just makes a huge mess. When I do the detailed carvings with the endmill or deep lathe grooving cuts, I use a drop or two of Spray Tap fluid. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 15:53:29 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Face Plates I have shyed away from trying to work with cast iron because I've read that castings have a hard shell, impurities like sand and very hard spots due to rapid cooling. I would like very much to hear how to work with cast iron and for that matter any sand cast material on limited power lathe like my atlas 1/3 hp 12x36 and 6x24 1/4 hp. I know the problem is not entirely limited power, light machine and very limited operator experience. It is largely caution about working with a material with a different technique than turning tobin bronze, dupont corian and hot or cold rolled steel. I find execise machines out in trash have in many cases a large partially turned flywheel so cost of an interesting piece of cast iron is usually no more than a quick stop and load in my pick up truck. If you cruise for trash treasures it pays to know the trash collection schedule and to keep an eye peeled both for possible finds and traffic ahead and behind. Would appreciate knowing what techniques work in real world with sand cast materials and castings in general, enough to get started anyway. Louis ------- Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 13:20:03 -0800 From: Rick Kruger Subject: Machining Cast Iron (was: Face Plates) Tough skin and impurities on cast parts surfaces, yes, but it isn't all like that. I've bought several REMs of cast iron from the local tool steel distributor that appears almost extruded and has only a very thin skin if any. These come from long bars of round or rectangular stock, so it probably is extruded to make the bars. Machines very nicely. It does wear out HSS cutters quickly so I use carbide and cut dry, without cutting fluids. Buying steel/CI this is way seems a little spendy ($1/lb.) compared to junkyard steel ($0.25 /lb.) but I can specify what alloy and usually find chunks not much bigger than I need, or I get a bit extra. On getting thru the skin, I've heard make your first cut deep enough to bite all the way thru the skin to good metal will save your cutter. Tough skin/sand/impurities/hard spots may have something to do with the quality of the CI and casting process too. Its very dirty, often cuttings are more like dust. I cover exposed ways to keep the CI cuttings/dust from getting on wear surfaces and clean up with a vacuum and a good wipedown followed by oiling. You might want to wear a dust mask to keep from breathing the dust. Probably doesn't hurt you but it does save collecting all that dust in you nose. I'm no expert, just a dabbler, so take the above with that in mind. Maybe somebody who really knows will chime in. Rick K. Portland, OR ------- Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 21:58:55 -0000 From: walnut_charliex~xxhotmail.com Subject: Re: Face Plates I've never found that there is any problem with a skin on cast iron. Cast iron is quite soft and easy to machine. It is very abrasive and does eat up tool bits. Carbide does hold up the best. For the internal threads on a backing plate a high speed bit is practical to grind. Turning cast iron slow seems to work best. I've made several of them on a 10" x 24" ATLAS lathe with no problem. You just have to go slow. The fine grain cast iron is the nicest to turn. The things like bar bell weights which tend to be low grade sometimes have small voids but hey...its cheap! Walnut Charlie ------- Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 14:42:54 -0800 From: "John Johnson" Subject: Re: Re: Face Plates Louis, Don't be afraid to turn cast iron on your lathe. I have turned all twelve of my Shay steam locomotive wheels which are cast iron, on my 12x36 Craftsman QC lathe with no problem. In fact, I sell the castings through my business, LocoGear. The castings that I sell are made by a reputable foundry which has been in business for over 100 years. The iron castings are ductile iron and also have an alloy with Mehannite. This alloy is often used in the manufacture of lathe and mill beds. One of the things that my foundry does to the castings before they go out the door is to sand blast them. This removes all of the foundry sand. I have not found any problems with a hard layer as the foundry takes its time to let the castings cool properly. You are correct that improperly made castings can be big problems. You did not say what castings you intend to turn. If you are having your own patterns cast, then have a long talk with the foundry and work out these details. The 12x36 should be just fine with tuning the castings. I usually take about a .015 to .025 cut with the feed rate at the slowest .0042. I usually run the spindle speed at either 164, 266 or 418 RPM depending on the outside diameter (slower for the larger diameters). I primarily use carbide inserts with a wedge type QC tool post (Phase II, 200 series). Some say to dig in deep on the first pass to get under any surface hardness or impurities. This is good advise if you have "crappy" castings. If you have them made to order like I have, you don't need to bother with that. I have started with very light cuts and not found any problems. Turning cast iron does have some other issues to deal with. Cast iron will come off in nice long chips like CR steel. It rather flakes off. You should be prepared for the dust. I have found that taping the end of the shop-vac hose to the tool post so it can suck in the iron "chips" as they come off really works well. Be careful to clean up after each session to get the iron dust off the lathe ways. It can make a great lapping compound and then wear away your lathe bed if you don't keep it clean. John D.L. Johnson www.LocoGear.com ------- Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 02:05:53 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Face Plates My experience with bed frames is they are thin gage and heat treated hard. Difficult to drill even with a cobalt drill. Regular angle iron is meaty and soft enough to drill with any drill. As I get to know material and what it can or can't do for me I get picky or maybe it's old age. I am amazed at what gets thrown out and how useful it can be to my someday projects. I feel I have had a good day when some brass, aluminum, Corian or any potentially useful project material comes my way. Some say I am tighter than bark on a tree,but, I consider it my civic duty to recycle metal from the trash considering the effect on the environment of producing new metal by mining transporting and processing. Best metal I have ever used is tobin bronze propeller shafting from an old marina. Machines like butter and shines like gold at least until it tarnishes. Corian machines very easily. Material comes off in form of a thin continuous ribbon which is a bit of waste disposal problem unless you keep vacuuming as you turn. Louis ------- Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:10:52 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Finish Hi Devin: You need to pick your material properly.The word "steel" encompasses a terrific variety of materials with all kinds of properties. Here's where to start: If you need a good to excellent finish and you care less about strength: Leaded 1214 or "Leadloy as it is often called is the #1 choice. Machines like butter. 303 Stainless is also very good. If you need high strength: 4140, 4340, P20 or other moderately alloyed steels are all good choices. They are supplied both fully annealed or prehardened. They are MUCH tougher to cut and much tougher to get a good finish on just off the lathe. If you need hardened and want to machine after hardening: The best, bar none, is 420M stainless steel. It machines well in the annealed state, goes up to 54 Rockwell C (can just barely be filed) and can be machined to beautiful finishes with carbide tooling in the hard state. If you want really hard: Case hardened mild steel is good, so is A2. (By the way, you can case harden Leadloy too.) A2 will warp much less in hardening than most other hardenable steels, but really needs to be ground for finishing after heat treat. Don't even try to harden it yourself. If you want to harden it yourself: O1 is really the only realistic choice. It hardens easily with a torch, is quenchable in oil so it doesn't warp too badly and will go in excess of 60 Rockwell, so it's hard enough for cutting tools. All of these steels are readily available almost anywhere (that's part of why I picked them for this list). So now, when you pick up that rusty axle shaft at the junkyard, you will be thinking: what the H-- is it really? Can I cut it? Will I get a decent finish? Your choices here will have a FAR greater influence on the result than any tinkering you do with tool angles and coolant choices. The only thing left is tinkering the speeds and feeds; and that's experience driven, so make lots of chips and you'll figure it out pretty quick. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:08:50 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Statman" Subject: Re: Trying my hand at turning some titanium From: "Van Lupo" To: >Trying my hand at cutting some titanium (Grade 2 for you scientist). Does >anyone have some suggestions on what kind of cutting fluid works best. >Tried some tool and instrument oil using a .040 cutoff tool with reasonable >success but found it still hard to control the feed rate without the bit >starting to bind on the sides from the heat I would guess. Speed and feed >seem extremely critical with this stuff. Used very low speed and tried to >feed aggressively enough but not so much as to over load the motor. Chips >were nice and long curly cues between lateral binding episodes. Interested >in suggestions from the pros! Van Van, I lathe cut all titanium with no cutting fluid. I used to grind my own Cobalt HSS tools, but have since gone to titanium nitride coated carbide insert tooling. I have no problems cutting any grade of titanium on the Sherline, but I prefer to machine grade-5 since it is not as abrasive as grade-2, but it is quite a bit harder. I will use some lubricating tapping oil while parting off and doing surface carvings with miniature endmills, but for normal turning I use nothing. Just watch the tool and part temperatures as titanium has a nasty habit of igniting when you are least ready. Keep your workspace clear of excess chips and keep a bucket of sand and a fire extinguisher nearby. The fire extinguisher is for everything else that catches fire from the titanium, and the sand is for the actual burning titanium. Good luck and be careful especially when polishing with emery cloth. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:05:04 -0600 (CST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Hardware Store metal stock All the stuff I've ever picked up from the hardware store has been 1018 steel. The flat bars are almost exclusively hot rolled steel, so they've got scale all of them. (That scale will eat cutting tools for lunch, so be sure to get it off before machining it.) The round bar is almost exclusively cold rolled steel (CRS). Great for turning, but getting a nice surface finish can be tricky. It tends to look like a rat chewed on it unless your tools are dead on center, sharp as a razor, and have a slight nose radius (1/64" or so). Tom ------- Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 10:40:30 +0100 From: Tony Jeffree Subject: Re: Re: Diemaking & Moldmaking Titanium can burn just fine - titanium dioxide (the end product of burning titanium) is used extensively as a white pigment in paints. Most (if not all) elements that can exist as a stable oxide can be made to burn under the right conditions. Iron burns just great if you get it fine enough - wire wool will light from a match. Aluminium can be made to burn - Thermite is an example where this happens. Take a look at this weblink for some info from the horse's mouth on how to keep safe when playing with titanium: http://www.alleghenytechnologies.com/titanium/pages/help/tech15.htm These guys should know what they are talking about - they manufacture the stuff. Note that at the bottom of the page, they say that it is possible to make an explosive mixture of titanium dust with air if you get the dust fine enough. I bet that would be spectacular to watch from a *very* safe distance... Regards, Tony ------- Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:55:26 -0000 From: "duwayne" Subject: Re: What is ZA12 In Metal_Shapers, toolroomtrustee wrote: > A comment about DuWayne's Adept 2 shaper clone mentions this: > > ZA12 What is it? Larry Murray It is a Zinc Aluminum alloy about 88% zinc, 12% Aluminum, and a little copper thrown in also. It is supposed to machine and have similar properties to cast iron, and pours at about 900F. DuWayne ------- Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 19:34:16 -0000 From: "volzmechatronic" Subject: Re: What is ZA12 Larry-- To see the specs on ZA12 click on this URL tag: http://www.purityalloys.com ; once there click on "zinc die casting". ZA12 is an improvement over the older Zamac zinc alloys and is castable also by gravity pouring as well as by die casting. Purity Alloys, a Canadian company, is reasonably priced and sells in small quantities to hobbyists--payment includesdirect shipping. One of our Houston HMSC members purchased some alloy from Purity earlier this year. If you want to brew your own, contact Ray C. this list: he's got a "buzzard nuker" in which he mixes-'n-melts his "witch- zinc": "37 pounds of zinc hinges from off the squeeking doors of a haunted house on C-adaver Hill, a dozen bat wings dusted with aluminum powder, a suitcase of consumed National Lube of Texas...and....". I suspect that ZA12 would also make good change gears for lathes. Atlas ( http://www.clausing-industrial.com ) equipped most of their hobbyist size lathes with zinc-alloy die cast gears. The ZA12 alloy has better strength characteristics than Zamac and, possibly, may not have inherited the curse of intergranular corrosion cancer from the latter. I imagine that they could be directly cast into FULLY BAKED AND DRIED plaster molds as ZA12 has little shrinkage and retains good definition when molded. Alternatively, gear blanks could be cast and machined as John and I intend to possibly do...after my extruded 6061 aluminium rounds experiments. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:24:27 -0500 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Re: What is ZA12 Art, ZA12 does have a tad of shrinkage, something on the order of 1/8" per foot. If you try to cast gears with the original as a master you will probably be making undersized gears. Whether it will be enough to matter I don't really know, but having seen functional gears with heavy wear I bet they would be usable. A 3" gear would only shrink about .030 so you may get by with it. But casting the blanks and machining may be the best solution. And by the way I have been experimenting with the recipe a little. I tried substituting gopher toenails for the bat wings, with the mosquito problem I want to leave the bats alone so they can do their job. So far the gopher cuticles seem to be work just fine. But when I substituted some Coors cans for the Lone Star ones the alloy was pretty weak and crumbly. Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 20:52:51 -0000 From: "volzmechatronic" Subject: Re: What is ZA12: Shrinking Gears To Size? Ray--That poses an interesting question, that I'm going to have to ponder. Of course, when die casting, the molds are designed using a shrinkage rule to compensate for expectable shrinkage in the casting. That's how Atlas cast their gears--probably took several renditions until they got the molds just right. The question is this: if ONLY off-the- shelf standard cutters were used, could a pattern be cut with the next larger cutter DP size, a plaster mold made, and then the gear cast would (magically?) shrink to the proper size? Would a DP14 shrink to DP16 size...???? Where's my calculator???? Now, if we could only get a mix of lead and...to shrink into a bar of gold...heck, everyone would be taking that great leap forward, even if their backyards were 'squitoe infected, buzzard-nuking every bit of lead they could find. And then, that old WW2 adage of "What ja gawking at? Pull in your neck, the guv-ments looking for rubber." could be updated to "Better get your rear end into gear, the guv-ments looking for lead." :-) Art ------- Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 13:39:37 -0500 (CDT) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: turning titanium On Sun, 4 Aug 2002, rtracing7 wrote: > i have never tried this and was wandering if or what special tools and > any other info that you can give me. i am going to try in turn a shaft > down to 2.5mm and then try in thread each end. any help would be > greatly appreciated (tools,speeds etc....) Turns out on a lathe the size of the Taig, HSS tooling works better than carbide. The temps generated in using carbide tooling are enough to make the titanium chips ignite. (This is both from stuff I've read and from first-hand experience.) The big thing you're trying to avoid with titanium is heat. The chips really honestly will catch fire. Problem is, titanium work-hardens almost faster than stainless. What this means is you need to use a fairly low speed, fairly heavy feed, and use sharp sharp sharp tooling. If at any point your tool starts to rub, the titanium will work-harden in seconds, and the resulting friction can start a fire. (Quick aside: The fires I ran into were pretty easy to handle. Keep your lathe clear of chips and swarf, and let the fire burn out if one starts. If it's risking your tools, take the toolholder off the lathe and put it somewhere where the fire can burn out. Mine were all small fires.) As far as speeds went, I think I wound up using my slowest speed. But again, I was cutting 1" bar. 2.5mm would probably be a little faster. Even so, I'm guessing that it'd be on the slow end of the range. I've never cut thread in titanium. Can't help you there. I'd guess use lots of tapping fluid and treat it like stainless. Tom ------- Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 21:39:46 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: OT; A material question.... dswrx~xxwebtv.net wrote: >I just got to do my first cuts on my newly acquired Grizzly Mini-mill. I >am machining a part made from 6010 Aluminum stock. I seem to be getting >a ragged cut. (pushing up metal ahead on the cutter). >Is 6010 difficult to machine? (or is the machinist to blame?) 8-) >Turning it on my lathe went very well. What should the spindle speed be? Aluminum in general is sticky to mill. Formula rpm = (cs x4)/dia yields high rpm. and is not realistic outside speciality machining shops. Are you using 2 flute or 4 flute mill? 2 flute clears ships easier but you must slow rate of advance as you are cutting with half as many edges. Some alloy and heat treatment make for easier machining but clearing chips always troublesome. If you have small vacuum with suction hose try that to keep up with chaff ( I have done this while machining Corian a real source of high volume chaff.) Louis ------- Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 19:55:19 -0800 (PST) From: t t Subject: Re: OT; A material question.... use conventional milling techniques for roughing cuts and "climb milling" for finish cuts. Climb milling cuts should be no more than .003"-.006" depth of cut. Put a slight amount of drag on table w/locks so that the cutter doesn't suck work into it. LIGHT CUTS WHEN CLIMB MILLING. This should take care of your ragged surface finish. Good luck. Let me know how you make out. Anthony ------- Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 22:19:02 -0800 From: "JAMES BEGGEROW" Subject: Re: Re: Having problems cutting copper on Taig mill Robbin, Copper as you know is a soft gummy material nad will tend to pile up on the flutes and requires a good amount of coolant to lubricate the tool also the tool should have a fair amount of top rake, take a look at the hi-shear end mills I think they have a 60 deg helix angle they will shear the material this. Take lite cuts and start with lite feeds and a good cutting oil, I use mobilmet omicron oil it costs about 35.00 for five gallons and will not stain the copper and produces good tool life. I have a swiss automatic screw machine and make copper tips for metal spraying machines by the thousands. Jim ------- Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:30:17 -0000 From: "j0hn_0ls0n" Subject: Re: Having problems cutting copper on Taig mill Thanks for all the help. I finally got through the entire cut without breaking a bit. What I did was turn down the RPM on the spindle to 5000, turn up the feed rate to 20ipm and ramp into the material -.01. This worked great but took 3 hours. It is now time to go back and see if I can do -.05 or better to cut down the cut time. I see what I was doing before was wrong. The copper was being pushed around like butter because the spindle RPM was too high. The only thing I do not understand is the broken end mills were never hot and copper was never imbedded in the flutes. Thanks again. John ------- Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 13:40:17 -0000 From: "kvec1" Subject: cutting titanium i would like to use a slitting saw to cut a 2" long slit in 0.040 titanium sheet stock. thickness would be .032". what would be the recommended number of teeth and rpm to run the saw at? any advise on this subject would be most appreicated as i've already burnt one saw. ------- Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:53:55 -0500 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: cutting titanium Use an endmill. Solid Carbide. Preferably TiAlN coated, but TiN coated or uncoated will also work. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:24:39 -0800 (PST) From: rodger pease Subject: Re: Re: Weight? Might be a little too late to reply to this but... A handy little trick that I learned (too long ago to remember when) was, if you want to know how much a steel plate or sheet (whatever) weighs, just remember 0.283. That is what a cubic inch of mild steel weighs. Then just take the basic dimensions and multiply them out (example: 1/4" x 5" x 10" = 12.5 cubic inches x .283 = 3.5375 pounds) to get cubic inches and use the 0.283 factor. This will give you the approximate weight for almost any steel piece. [For most people, it shouldn't make much difference whether 304 is "slightly" denser than 316 (or mild steel for that matter). As long as your using steel, there isn't enough difference in weight to "make a rat's A--). That is unless your are doing "rocket science" or you just "have" to be that precise. If you do, you probably should already know how to do all of this anyway.] Obviously, if you are using steel "shapes" (non-flat pieces), then the calculations get somewhat trickier. You might need to know a few more formulas to obtain the weight of rounds or tubes (or whatever), but the weight of a cubic inch of steel is still .283 (rounded) pounds. If the part has holes in it, you also have to "deduct" the correct amount of each "hole" to obtain the final weight, but again.......a cubic inch is still the same. Try it.........it works. Regards, Rodger ------- Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 11:36:55 +0100 From: "j.c.gerber" Subject: Re: Re: Weight? The factor 0.283 given by Rodger is correct and is using the specific weight of 0.785 found in all books and taught at school. In the metallurgy we are using a specific weight of 8 instead. From experience and all the warm and cold rolling tolerances, it is much closer to the reality. It is amazing, in particular with steel sheets, how close to the effective weighed weight one is coming. For those interested by the various formulas, I compiled some in an Excel sheet to calculate the weight either from inches or millimeters with the result either in kilos or pounds for steel sheets, flats, square bars, strips and round bars. The Excel map can be found in the Group files: "Calculating Steel Weights". Merry Chrismas to all members of the group Jean-Claude, Switzerland www.homestead.com/turnandmill ------- Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2003 13:39:55 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Turning Bronze [sherline] At 11:34 AM 1/4/2003 EST, you wrote: > > I need to turn and bore a piece of bronze round to be used as a main > > bearing in a small steam engine. I can't seem to get a nice smooth > > finish using a c-2 carbide cutting tool. Would appreciate any > > information on feed/speed, whether or not to use cutting oil, > > whatever. Thanks in advance. JoeB January 04, 2003 "Orrin B. Iseminger" wrote: > Try using a nice, sharp HSS tool and a slow feed on the final pass. > I've never found cutting oil to be necessary for bronze. > I'm an advocate of HSS tooling for the HSM. After rough sharpening on the > bench grinder, bring them to a keen edge on an oil stone. I start with a > Carborundum stone and finish up with a hard Arkansas. > At the first sign of losing the keen edge, touch it up with a 1/2" X 1/2" > abrasive "stick." On a full sized lathe you don't even to take the tool > off the lathe. With a Sherline, you'll probably do better if you take the > tool off. Orrin A lot depends on the grade of bronze we're talking about. There are dozens...each has different properties. The toughest are some of the aluminum and manganese bronzes. They tend to make long stringy chips and are often yellow in colour like brass. Some cannot be cut without carbide on a really rigid machine tool, and warp all over the place. Others, such as leaded tin bronzes and phosphor bronzes are free machining and make crumbly little chips like cast iron. These can be easily machined with HSS tools and are stable when cut. Bearing bronzes are often a grade called "Oilite". This is a sintered (makes it porous to retain oil) phosphor bronze I believe, and should be cut dry. It will not machine to a shiny finish like most metals you are used to. You want to aim to get it smooth and to proper size. Ignore the "not shininess" of it ...that's not really achievable with this grade. Hope this helps. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 00:54:27 -0000 From: "crankdisk " Subject: Re: Turning Bronze I was just turning a bronze bearing a few minutes ago. I used the advice from the old South Bend book "How to Run a Lathe", which recommends a round-nosed tool with no side or back rake. It is looks just like a threading tool, but the nose is slightly rounded. It produced a very smooth but not shiny surface. I don't know the exact bronze type, but it is from an old bearing and appears to be the oil- filled 'sintered bronze'. It seems very hard and chattered and had a rough surface when I used a regular side tool. Give it a try, you'll only be out a few minutes of sharpening time. Bill ------- Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 09:15:52 -0000 From: "timgoldstein " Subject: Re: Machining Anodized Aluminum In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, glee wrote: > I have several rack chassis that I was thinking of getting rid of. These > have sone heavy duty panels made from 1/8" and 1/4" black anodized Al. > I'm curious to know if this material is worth keeping for machining > purposes someday? I don;t have an appreciation for how hard > Anodizing is, so I don't know what it will do to the tooling, -Eric It is aluminum oxide so it is actually pretty hard and abrasive stuff. But the layer that is there is so thin that you cut through it like it is not there. I have not machined a huge amount of anodized aluminum, but what I have done cut fine and had no adverse affect on my tooling. Tim [Denver CO] Sherline Products at Deep Discount Mach1 & DeskCNC with Credit Card ordering Contact me for discounts on DeskCNC & Sherline bundles www.KTMarketing.com/Sherline ------- Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 10:13:14 -0500 From: "Van Lupo" Subject: RE: Re: Machining Anodized Aluminum For what it's worth, you can remove anodization using sodium hydroxide (lye) also sold under the brand name Red Devil drain cleaner. Just mix up a small weak solution and soak the part for about 5-10 minutes. It will come out looking sooty but you can rinse and wipe the soot off with a paper towel. Be sure to rinse the part thoroughly and careful not to get this stuff on your skin as it is quite caustic and will burn your skin badly! Van ------- Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2003 16:29:24 -0000 From: "Paul Mendoza " Subject: Re: Machining Anodized Aluminum We deal with a lot of Anodized parts at work, (I build Lenco Racing trannies) and there are different types of anodize! There is a hard Anodize. Comes in many colors such as black or "Lenco gray" as they call it but it's more of a root beer color. It does somewhat harden the aluminum to a certain depth. It does not however make it unmachinable. The standard anodize is just a beautification and to help protect the material from harsh chemicals. We use the hard "Lenco gray" on our clutch hubs and clutch housings. Now mind you that these things are behind several thousand horsepower motors and it give the the idea of just how strong hard anodize really is. We used to use it in our boat tranies too but they are so harsh on everything that we had to go to steel hubs and housings. Like I said, it is not unmachinable but it is harder to machine. It will not be like machining a hardend peice of 350 Marage or 300M (we use this stuff alot too) though. And it will not be as bad as you think and it's only a certain thickness. You can scrape it off with a bearing knife by hand but it takes some pressure. I'd keep it and machine it for all sorts of stuff. Probably more than you needed to know. Paul ------- Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 07:45:28 -0000 From: "Art Volz " Subject: Re: Forging Shaper Tooling Jeff-- SAE 1045 is not a tool steel, even if that actually is the steel in the axles you have. It is a plain carbon steel with 0.45% carbon. It is a medium carbon steel at the lower end. Although high-carbon plain carbon steels were once used for shaper tools, no one uses plain carbon steels for cutting tools anymore, not even in Dara, Pakistan. For shaper use, only high speed steels with either a tungsten base or a molybdenum base are used today. (Carbide is useable too, but that's a different story altogether.) These tools are available in square cross-section of various sizes designed for use in tool holders. They're cheap, available, and work swell. I don't know the slot dimensions in your lantern tool post on your shaper when it is mounted in the clapper, but you can also use larger HSS tool bits, without a tool holder, clamped directly in this tool post. Plain carbon steels with carbon content of between 1.10-1.30%, properly heat treated and ground to shape, can be used for lathe tools, small rotary cutters, shaper tools, etc., but consider this to be light-duty use only where extreme hardness is needed without great toughness...and they can't take the heat. Expect to be very unhappy with the results. In "Files" here, are two drawings of shaper tool holders that you may wish to scale to your shaper's tool post size. Then heat up one of your axles red hot, beat it merrily to shape, and make just the tool holders to hold off-the-shelf (you're have to grind 'em) HSS tool bits. SAE 1045 will work for making these tool holders although a steel with a slightly higher carbon content of about 0.60% would be better. BTW, have you done the spark comparison tests for your axles to roughly try to figure out how much carbon they have and to get a hint if they have any other alloying herbs and spices hidden within? There are colored charts available that show these sparkies bursting in air...just like fireworks on the 4th...but I don't know where my charts are. (Mario the Forger may have swiped mine. :-)) ------- Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 03:53:37 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Forging Shaper Tooling early forged tools were hi carbon steel, not medium carbon (1045) ....they were 85 to 100 points carbon depending on usage .....1045 will harden , but how hard ,i dont know .what i do know is ur SFM speeds will HAVE to be abt 1/2 of that of hi speed (red hot working) steel ....carbon steels were hardened to R65 & drawn back to a lt. straw for the lathe ,somewhat darker for shaper.........one nice thing abt 1045 , is the core stays tough when quenched.......since u have the stock, harden a piece & put the file to it ...if u have to press hard w/ a sharp file to get a shaving ,it will be useful....., if not ,get some 01 or W/1 rectangular tool steel from enco/msc/travers....cost is one reason to make a holder & use a bit!!!!! (thats why the y came on the scene best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 05:05:53 -0000 From: "Thomas E. Jones " Subject: Source for thick-wall tube? (OT) [SHERLINE GROUP] Hate to off-topic this nice group, but I've been looking for weeks for a supply of thick-wall tube, which will sell low quantity. For motor couplings, I need approximately 5/8 or 3/4 inch diameter tubes (outer diameter) with 1/4 inch inner diameter. Preferably 12L14 steel, but I'll take anything. I've been drilling and reaming steel myself, but there has got to be something ready made, somewhere. I probably need sections at least 2 inches long. A few parts companies sell simple couplers, but not that long. Maybe someone sells motor couplings for 1/4 inch shaft about 2 inches long, but I can't find them. Any suggestions appreciated. Sorry for off-topic message, but I'm desperate. - tj. ------- Date: Tue, 25 Feb 2003 22:38:21 -0000 From: "n2562001 " Subject: Re: Source for thick-wall tube? (OT) Tom, this can be purchased from any local metal suppier as manderal or precision tubing. It will come in 12 ft lengths but may be cheaper than ordering short pieces and you will always find a need for what ever is left over. Ask them to order what you need in their next order if they don`t have it in stock so you don`t have to pay shipping. In most cases a local supplier can supply standard lengths at about the same price as ordering short pieces and paying for cutting shipping etc. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:56:37 -0000 From: "ruspage " Subject: Cutting brass Need information on best way to cut multiple grooves in strips of half-hard brass .050 thick (C260 I think). This is for a home model railroad track project and I am not a machinist. I do have a radial arm saw and a router available and am wondering if a good carbide tip blade is ok or do I need to get a much more expensive metal cutting blade. I plan to stack the strips together in a pack of 20 or 40 which would then be 1 or 2 inches thick. Hope that this question is appropriate for this group; there are no people with machinist experience in my neck of the woods. Thanks for any advice. Russ ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 16:51:40 -0000 From: "notinsync10 " Subject: Re: Cutting brass Man, you sure got me confused (which is not all that hard to do). I'm also a mrr'der. So, why don't you tell me what you are trying to build and I'll see if I can't be of some help...'cuz this doesn't sound as if it's going to be very easy to do on either a radial or a router. No guarantees, of course. J.B. Neiswander ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 19:03:38 -0000 From: "ruspage " Subject: Re: Cutting brass I am working on a type of 3 rail O gauge track called "stud rail" in which the center rail, instead of being a continuous rail (such as with Lionel), is a series of studs which poke up through the ballast and the pickup roller is modified by adding a sliding "ski". This is already done by Marklin in HO guage. The stud center "rail" is made by using a long strip of .050 brass which runs between the halves of the cork roadbed with studs coming up through the ballast and rising just above the height of the ties. Total height is 3/8"; about half of that height has to be cut out every 1/2" to make room for the ties, the remaining full height part of the brass strip sticks up through the ballast as a stud. These pieces are soldered together every 40" (the length of a piece of Atlas flextrack) to form a continuous circuit. So I need to make small notches about 3/16' deep every 1/2" along pieces of the 3/8" wide .050 brass strip. That's 80 notches over the 40" length of the brass strip. Tedious, but maybe not so bad if I could do 20 or 40 strips at a time. This has been done by others using a preformed tool or punch, but I thought I would try doing this myself at home since brass is relatively soft and easy to mill or cut (I'm told). Hope that helps. So do you think that a carbide tip will "cut it"? Again, thanks for any advice. Russ ------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:58:42 -0800 (PST) From: Pete Brown Subject: Re: Re: Cutting brass I'm new to this, but not to woodworking. If I am picturing correctly what you are suggesting, it scares me a little :-) In my mind, I see a stack of .050 brass (which is relatively thick brass strip stock) being run over by a radial arm saw and bent etc. The router is even a less pretty picture. heh. In theory, if you have the right kind of blade, you could create a jig on your saw table using some hardwood tightly clamped to behind and in front of your stack of brass strip. Compressing those together would likely hold the brass tight enough that it could be cut as a single unit. However, if this is the K&S type brass stock, with slightly rounded edges, you might find clamping the brass in such a way as to prevent individual pieces from flying up and out of the stack difficult. IN that case, perhaps soldering both ends along the length of the stack, and then unsoldering afterwards might work for you. In either case, I think it would be a mess. If I had this problem to solve myself, I would likely solder both ends, and use a metal-cutting band-saw for the task. Pete ------- Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 21:45:13 -0000 From: "ruspage " Subject: Re: Cutting brass -Pete I agree, the stack of strips needs to be bound together, maybe drill and bolt them together or, as you said, solder them together or hold them together with pieces of hardwood or perhaps some soft metal bar stock. Thanks Russ ------- Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 19:16:50 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Machining CRS & knurling questions Thomas: Turning CRS isn't too bad, while not as pleasant as aluminum, leaded steel, or a sharp stick in the eye , it isn't all that bad. You won't get a lovely reflective surface on CRS as you may be used to with 6061 aluminum. In fact, unless you have a rigid setup and sharp tools or good quality carbide with a 5 to 7 degree positive rake and chipbreaker, the finish will probably be a bit rough and torn, plan on a pass with a well chalked or heavily oiled file if smooth is important. Cutting oil can help, for CRS I usually use a 50-50 mix of Mitee brand thread cutting oil and kerosene. If you intend to use HSS lathe bits, grind with a 7 degree front and side clearance, 5 to 7 degree top rake, and use M2 or better tool blanks. Stone a fine radius on the point. If you haven't read the pages on bit grinding on the Sherline web site, you might find doing so worth while. CRS is a pretty generic label, some of the stuff I've turned was a joy, some of the stuff looked like a rat with distemper had gnawed on it. Same is true for generic "weldable steel" aka HRS you get from "one or more of the following countries" at the local hardware store or chain. Sometimes you get to wondering how more than one country made portions of what appears to be a single bar :-) Because of the stress layer formed by drawing or rolling cold, the outer layer is indeed hard and under stress, and removing it one one side only will result in some warpage. You can anneal CRS, but for that amount of effort and cost in gas or coal you might as well buy a nice leaded steel or normal 1018. How much the warping bothers you depends on how good the results have to be. If I had a Taig or Sherline sized mill, I'd make the clamps and step blocks from aluminum or hard brass personally. I've used both materials for special clamping bars and fixtures on larger mills, shapers, and surface grinders. An added benefit is that the clamps don't mar the work, although you have to be careful about swarf getting embedded in the clamp faces. Knurling wheels have some side to side play, so they tend to pick up and settle into the previous knurl pattern. Certain diameters that are around half a pitch multiple off in diameter from the knurl pitch can cause the knurling to smear. This is particularly true with coarse knurls on smaller diameters, where the effect is most likely to show up. Knurling is a forming rather than cutting process, keeping the work flooded with heavy cutting oil and using good quality knurls will save you endless frustration. If you buy a knurling tool, it often comes with medium pitch knurls. Most Taig sized work is better done with fine knurls. As you knurl, you will see diamonds forming. You can knurl untill the points are still just slightly flat, or take the knurling to the point where the points become sharp. If you take the knurling all the way to completion, a gentle pass with 600 grit paper or a fine wire brushing (my preferred method, quick and it cleans up the piece) over the knurling makes it much more comfortable to grip. Left sharp, knurling is just a bunch of sharp points that stick into your fingers or palms. Same idea as breaking a sharp edge. If you are going to make a knurling tool, take the time to make a scissors style rather than the normal economy knurling tool style. You avoid having to put painful amounts of load on the carriage screw and headstock, and don't flex thin work. I think Nick has a drawing for a Taig sized knurling tool on his site, there may be one in the files area of this group also. Have fun! Sometimes you walk away with a good part, sometimes you walk away with some new questions or a new bit of knowledge. Either way you gain something. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 09:52:30 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Re: Machining CRS & knurling questions > I thought of making clamps from aluminum, but was worried they > would wear out to quickly. Is this the case? Thomas I use aluminum clamps for all my work on the Taig mill, and they work fine. The cutting forces shouldn't be that high. I use manufactured step blocks, TECO that are about $4.00 a pair. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 13:42:17 -0500 From: Stan Stocker Subject: Re: Re: Machining CRS & knurling questions Hi Thomas; I think that you'll be ready to handle just about anything that comes up in a home shop by the time you wear out aluminum clamping straps. If you consider the size of the T slots and the metal around them on Taig and Sherline aluminum tables you'll feel better about aluminum for clamps. Aluminum certainly isn't always the right stuff for holding something like a tractor head on a large mill, but most of the time we're working with much smaller objects and cutting forces. I would recommend using a washer under the clamping bolt or screw to avoid chewing up the top surface of the strap clamp though. Deburr the washer. Grade 5 or better hardware isn't wasted money for this application. Rough spots here can be a real hassle when doing an awkward setup, requiring five hands rather than the usual 3 plus a toe.... Keep all the bits and pieces together in a box or tray, whatever works for you. Once you have the set together it isn't just a few clever bits and some odds and ends from the hardware store, it's tooling with accessories and should be treated that way. The time you break down and use one of the parts from your clamp set for a repair there will be a rush job during a blizzard on a Sunday evening and the 25 cent piece you'll need will be the one you used last week. Did it, got some discipline, don't do it anymore. Cheers, Stan ------- Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 22:04:50 -0000 From: "Thomas " Subject: Thanks Nick & Stan :) Thanks guys for the advice on aluminum clamps, I'll feel much more confident in using them now :) Thomas ------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 19:33:35 -0800 From: Keith Green Subject: Re: Brass : cutting oil or not? [sherline] >>>From: Pete Brown Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 4:39 PM I keep getting conflicting advice on milling and turning brass. Some folks here have said to always turn or mill brass dry. The big fat sherline book by Martin, however, indicates to use cutting oil with everything. Is this one of those religious arguments, or am I simply misunderstanding something? As I understand it, the cutting oil, on a tool the size of the sherline, is mainly to make sure chips are worked out of the cut and aren't brazed onto the tool, correct? Thanks. Pete <<< Solvent for cutting brass/bronze, or thin your oil with it. Same for aluminum, but it doesn't work as well with some alloys as others. Carbide endmills don't really need any fluid unless you see some material-adhesion problems coming on. keith ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:47:49 -0000 From: "pksuhmann" Subject: Cutting fluid or none To all who have asked about cutting fluid with aluminum, brass and I'll throw in zamac. Any metal that gets gummy and adheres to the cutter or drill bit can use a lubricant. I have been machining zamac and that stuff gums up my cutters. A cheap lub is wd-40 for this. I use it on drill and mills. I have bunch of the plastic ampules and use the cut tip of the ampule to apply cutting fluid to the mill or drill directly NOT WHILE RUNNING. The oil prevents or limits the amount of material that sticks to the bit. Zamac means "zinc aluminum molding alloy casting" or something like that. But if you use carbide cutters you may not need it. Lube won't hurt. With a small machine like the Sherline too much lube just creates a film that holds grit and enhances wear on the machines. So keep the cutting fluid on the toolbit and work piece. Also I got a set of 1/4 carbide indexable tool bits from Harbor freight. I am surprised how nice they are they should be the ticket for cutting brass and aluminum. Pete Suhmann NMRA MER NJ Div #1 ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 18:04:38 +0100 From: Roger Jonsson LINE AUDIO Subject: Re: Cutting fluid or none Cutting, drilling and engraving aluminum I always use spirit, to prevent it from sticking. The cut gets much cleaner. Think it works as a cooling medium, thereby making the aluminium less sticky as it doesn't heat up as much. Works much better than any oil based liquid I tried. Some use water mixed with a drop of washing up liquid to break the surface tension. Also works great. The "feel" when cutting is that the aluminium is not as soft, which is an advantage. Don't think you should even try this on other metals!!! All the best, Roger Jönsson. ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 19:26:52 -0000 From: "Glen Reeser" Subject: Re: Bar stock Steam Engine I do some silversmithing as another of my many hobbies. It is common to fill silver tubing (even softer and gummier than copper) with beeswax before forming or cutting. This might help with your threading as long as you kept the work cool. The wax melts out easily when you are done. As long as were talking silver, why not silver solder your boilers? I made a very small one this way from 2 inch copper pipe and a couple of flat copper disks. I later added some fire tubes to increase the heat transfer the same way. A propane torch gets hot enough to flow silver solder. Extra EZ solder will do it. It's available in wire and sheets from WWW.riogrande.com. Someday I'll discuss making triple lead internal threads on sterling silver fountain pen caps. You don't want to try it. Glen Reeser ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 11:46:41 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Bar stock Steam Engine Hi Glen, Beeswax inside? To make it stiffer? That silver must be really soft! John has also suggested filling the tubes, but with lead. I will indeed silver solder (braze) the boiler! I'm under the impression that the term "braze" is more appropriate for the 1100+ deg F. temperatures I'm using. In the past my wife had gone down to the local welding supply, and I'd told her "silver solder", and they sold her the low temp stuff. They HAD the high temp stuff there also, but didn't mention anything for higher temp. Seems they call it "brazing" as well. Luckily, that project won't be subjected to high heat/temp! I also had some confusion when ordering silver solder and flux from a major jewelry supplier. They shipped a low temp flux with high temp EZ silver solder. Needless to say, although it wasn't obvious to me at the time, IT WOULDN'T WORK! The flux burned off, left a horrible scale that wouldn't come off without grinding, and contaminated the joint sufficiently that I scrapped the crankshaft. I finally got a tip, probably from this list, and ordered from Brownell's, a gun/knife supplier! This "Super flux" worked like a champ! EVERYTHING silver brazes quite easily, NOW! And wouldn't you know it, when I went to the welding supply, and bought the new torch, they had lotsa GOOD high temp flux! Oh well... While I've been able to silver braze crankshafts and small flywheels with a propane torch, I went to a large tank propane turbo torch for my current needs. I'm told that a LOT of heat, and a firebrick "box" to work in is essential for fixing up boilers! I haven't attempted a boiler yet. Thanks for the suggestions and URL. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 20:03:38 -0000 From: "Glen Reeser" Subject: Re: Bar stock Steam Engine The beeswax is really to keep the tube from collapsing. You could use a stiffer wax. I use casting wax, again from Rio Grand to make lost wax cast aka investment cast silver and gold jewellry and pen parts. The wax comes in different hardness from dead soft for hand modelling to file wax for machining. The file wax might be interesting for you. I routinely turn it on my lathes or machine it on my mills. I guess the soldering vs. brazing terminology depends on what industry you are working in. Jewelers never braze anything. It sounds way too common. Silver or gold soldering sounds much higher class. ;-) For flux I like a product called Stop-ox. It is a liquid that you spray onto the workpiece after warming it a bit. You can cover the whole piece with the stuff. It makes a good flux and it keeps the rest of the part from oxidizing. It makes clean-up a lot easier. Again, I get it at Rio Grande. Glen Reeser ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 12:19:38 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Bar stock Steam Engine Hi Glen, I can see that! I've wanted to try casting with wax, maybe actually MAKE some jewelry for my wife, instead of teasing her with connecting rods and eccentric followers. ;>) File wax? Must set up pretty hard, if you can turn it! Some simple investment casting would come in handy for making engine parts. So many interesting things to try! For now, bar stock (now that I have a supply) gets me going pretty good! Yeah, it's just terminology! I'd always heard it called silver soldering, and it DOES sound a little more refined! What I DO want to find is something to stop the silver solder from wandering too far. I've tried to find yellow ochre, but my wife brought back something like a child's poster paint! That's all the "ART store" could find/suggest! A RioGrande search didn't find anything. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 20:51:47 -0000 From: "Glen Reeser" Subject: Re: Bar stock Steam Engine Hi Alan, Yellow ochre is the stuff you want. The Rio Grande on-line product finder isn't very good (or complete?). I am sure they have it. Order their catalog(s). They have 4: 1) Jems and Findings 2) Tools and Equipment 3) Display and Packaging 4) Packaging You will want the Tools and Equipment one. Get the Jems and Findings one too, but don't let your wife see it. The catalogs are an education in precious metal working. I could see myself with a sterling silver wobbler steam engine tie tack if I still wore ties. Glen Reeser ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 15:54:40 -0500 From: "Ned Carey" Subject: Re: Solder/ braze - was Re: Bar stock Steam Engine > I'm under the impression that the term "braze" is more appropriate for > the 1100+ deg F. temperatures I'm using. Yes this is correct. There is silver bearing solder which melts in the 3-500 degree range as well as silver brazing rod which melts in the 1100-1300 degree range, quite a difference. To confuse things even more there is nickel silver brazing rod which has no silver in it but is silver in color and melts at closer to brass brazing rod temperatures. This is also one of my pet peeves, people who use the term silver solder so carelessly. Some people (jewelers according to another message) call silver brazing, silver soldering which is incorrect. As long as they are talking to other jewelers for example they will understand each other. However this can lead to some confusion as Alan and his wife found out. It just seems to me whenever you use the term "silver solder" you better explain what you mean. Anything less is careless and poor communication. Brazing and soldering are essentially the same principal but technically brazing is done at over 700 degrees and soldering is below 700 degrees. Why 700 degrees? I don't know but I suspect this is a temperature which changes the temper or color of steel, but this is just a guess. Does anybody know? > Yeah, it's just terminology! I'd always heard it called silver > soldering, and it DOES sound a little more refined! I think that's odd. Most people have heard of soldering and any plumber, hobbyists, or handy homeowner can do it. It doesn't sound very sophisticated to me, but brazing, here's a mysterious new process that the average guy doesn't understand. Ned ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 13:45:51 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Bar stock Steam Engine Hi Glen, didn't get Rio Grande to cough up the yellow ochre, but another search for the stuff turned up Kingsley North: http://kingsleynorth.com/jewelry/solderingsupplies.html Got some ordered from them! And something called red rouge, for polishing. The catalogs sound interesting. And I notice that they give you a gift certificate for the cost of the catalog! Nice system. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 21:54:12 -0000 From: "Glen Reeser" Subject: Re: Bar stock Steam Engine Alan, I'm glad you found what you needed. You can also get rouge from your local Ace Hardware man. It comes in different colors/abrasive size. I just finished some 14 kt gold rings for my wife and I bought red rouge there. My dog has taken a liking to red rouge for some strange reason. I have to buy more every time I need some. I keep finding the end caps in her bed and she has red all over her paws. I guess she's pretty shiney inside by now. Glen ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 17:10:39 -0500 From: Jeff Demand Subject: Re: Bar stock Steam Engine Hi Alan, Jewellers file-a-wax is VERY similar to machinable wax for cnc proofing, main difference is price. I think ENCO had the best price but check MSC and McMaster etc. Resembles plastic more than wax, melting point around 230° F. For stopping silver solder just remember the rule for any type soldering about being CLEAN. Yellow ochre is a fancy 'dirt' mixed with a little water. Water based liquid paper type products work well (solvent ones have bad fumes), ground up jewellers red rouge mixed with oil works well too. Try your poster paint, it'll probably work. Just remember all the times the #$%x~xx^ solder wouldn't flow. You do have to be careful that you don't overpower the solder stopper with flux. Jeff ------- Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 02:29:49 -0000 From: "Flosi Gudmundsson" Subject: Re: Bar stock Steam Engine Some people use teflon pipethread tape for that purpose and I also vaguely remember somone recomending soot. After carefully applying flux he would heat the surrounding area with high flame so as to cover it with soot and then heat the joint and apply solder. Flosi ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 23:52:02 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Bar stock Steam Engine KM6VVx~xxarrl.net writes: >Can I temper the copper? Heat it up, and cool it fast? I thought about >filling with solder, and I've seen the lowtemp alloy advertised. Expensive! Oh No Alan: That is the way to soften copper for forming. Copper is hardend by cold working, just opposite of steel. I guess solder would work to hold the copper tube in shape or even a wood dowel of the proper diameter. I built my boilers in accordance with what I read in LBSC's books. The process goes something like this. Make a metal or wood form the shape of your plate, allowing enough for the thickness of the metal. Flange them by (now here is the place to heat and cool) heating red hot and dumping in a pickle solution after it is at black heat. If the plate seems hard after some pounding reheat and cool again or the copper will crack. Then drill or bore the holes for your tubes. If you drill before forming you will be sure to get oval holes. Insert the tubes in the plate and if you have a morse taper small enough put that in the end of the tube and give it a whack with your hammer. When this is all done put some flux and small bits of silver solder around each tube. As the solder melts and runs into the joint you may have to use a "scratch rod" (a pointed end on a steel wire) to scratch around each joint to make sure everything is sealed (if you are lucky, and the moon is in the right quarter the Silver solder will flash around each tube in a nice ring.) Then you insert your tube bundle and plates into the barrel and silver solder that joint. Copper needs a lot of heat, not temperature so much but plenty of heat as copper conducts heat very well and it will lose heat fast too. On my larger boiler I laid the boiler on a charcoal bed and silver soldered on burning charcoal. (Hot job, don't do this in August.) Most important after all this is done, arrange a pump and put on a good pressure gauge, not one of the model gauges. And expell every bit of air then pressure to two times working pressure, and inspect for leaks, swellings etc. If it passes that test should be OK to put into service. Copper is difficult to machine, but it sure forms nicely with forms and a hammer, you can form almost any shape you would ever need. Keep it soft by heating and cooling (the cooling is not really neccesary, but when you pickle the hot copper it is cooled and cleaned of all the oxides and gunk. Don't use brass for stuff like valves, sight glasses etc on a copper boiler (or a steel boiler either.) brass can lose its zinc and become brittle and fail, use bronze or what the brits call gun metal. Have fun add another arrow to your quiver besides machining you become a coppersmith. John LBSC Virginia LBSC Tich 200 some feet of 3.5 inch ground level track ------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 10:56:16 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Solder/ braze - was Re: Bar stock Steam Engine Al Lenz wrote: > I have a feeling we should specify our units, Deg F or Deg C. Hi Al: You're right! I believe we've all been talking degrees F here lately (at least I am). I ran into that problem talking to Rudy K. at P.R.I.M.E. last year. I asked him about the silver soldering (brazing) he did on his engines. He said 450 degrees or so. Well, I took it to mean Fahrenheit, and he was talking Celsius! My 850 degrees are Fahrenheit. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 2003 09:23:50 -0800 From: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" Subject: Re: Truing a 3 jaw chuck? [AND TURNING BRONZE] Original Message From: "Thomas " To: Sent: March 10, 2003 > I gave CRS a try and was really relieved to find out that it's not > that hard to machine after all :) The finish wasn't as nice as > aluminum or brass, but at least it didn't look rat-chewed either, hehehe! > I am wondering what to do about my 3 jaw chuck. I have trued it a > couple of times with the boring bar while it is chucked around the > washer supplied with it, but workpieces still don't run true. Have > I "overtrued" it? Is there a point on the jaws where truing past it > will make the jaws less able to hold a workpiece correctly? > I had an especially hard time with some oil-impregnated bronze > bearing stock. This stuff was a bitch to machine! (excuse my > language) I couldn't drill it for the life of me, and then I tried > turning the outside. It kept trying to wobble itself out of the > chuck, and when I finally got the OD right and tried parting it off, > it practically exploded! It got discolored, even though I was using > lots of Tap Magic, and then chunks of bronze, um, for lack of a > better word, chunked off all over. Watch out for this stuff! TA It will never run true for all diameters, too many variables with a 3 jaw chuck. For accuracy and strength, try the independent 4 jaw chuck. Gripping bronze with aluminum jaws will not result in a good hold. See our web pages http://www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2003 17:31:56 EST From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: new member seeks accessories for an Atlas 10-F Brass and Bronze are catchalls. I got some bronze prop shafts when an old boat yard went to auction. They were marked Tobin Bronze... a 70Cu 30 Zn brass with about 1% tin. It machines like butter and shines like gold. The 1% tin increases resistance to sea water corrosion which is why it was used for prop shafts on inboard engine runabouts and speedboats. I gave shop instructor friend a 4 foot length for his student's projects and he was very happy to get it. He had mentioned to me how he gave best student's some brass to make hammers if they were ahead on their work so I figured he could use some more bribe material as brass cost him $3.90 a pound. Anyway if you have an old boat yard around ask if they have any old short pieces or used prop shafts. Scrap metal value is only 20 or 25 cents per pound. Later prop shafts were a machineable stainless steel which is worth having if you can find it. Old boat yard may have old lathe and keyway milling equipment. Louis ------- Date: Thu, 03 Apr 2003 08:10:56 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: Just got a 4400 - need some help getting started In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, "lansoprazole"wrote: > After several weeks of careful research and thinking and finally > saying the heck with it, I am now the owner of a Sherline 4400 lathe > with the "A" accessory package, a steady rest, and a thread cutting > attachment (for a future project). [SNIP] > If anyone is in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and knows > of some local [METAL] dealers, I'd really appreciate it. If not, some > online dealers would be nice. (I already know about onlinemetals.com) Congrats on your new "baby." Regarding materials, you might want to check Metal Supermarkets. They are a franchised chain and have locations around the country. I checked their site and they show stores in Irving and also in the Fort Worth area. Their web site has a "store finder" (http://www.metalsupermarkets.com/StoreFind/). They have an outlet in my area (Salt Lake City) and I've found their selection and prices to be very good. They will sell you exactly the amount you want, and there is no cutting charge or minumum purchase. I use Online Metals to roughly estimate the cost of my projects, but I rarely buy from them. Metal Supermarkets is generally (at least in my area) about 10-15% less. I have no connection with these folks other than as a satisfied customer. Regards, Jim Knighton ------- Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 11:03:12 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Coolant It's almost an absolute necessity in stainless. Stainless is a horribly poor conductor of heat, so heat tends to build up at the place you're machining. Without a coolant, there's a big tendency for the stainless to work-harden. At that point the cutter will stop cutting, the friction from rubbing will further work-harden, and things get ugly in a hurry. That takes less than a quarter second. I've wrecked a couple of stainless parts that way. Tom ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 13:16:08 -0000 From: "jrw064" Subject: cast iron adapter A while ago, I asked on this forum about a 4 jaw Skinner chuck being mounted up to a 12x36 Atlas lathe. I ordered a 1 1/2" threaded Bison cast iron adapter, finally came in the mail, looked pretty nice once I got the packing grease off of it. I was surprised that the register area had been machined so I spun it on the lathe. I took some indicator readings and looked pretty good via the large face of the adapter. I ordered a slightly larger diameter than the chuck wanting to cut it down to the same size as the chuck proper. I started with a HSS tool bit and quickly found that the bit would not stand it at all. So I switched to a cemented(cheap) carbide cutting tool and it is doing better. I am running about 80 rpm and taking small cuts per pass. Does anyone have anything to offer in the proper cutting tool for this Bison cast iron adapter? I was somewhat surprised at the mess cast iron makes, but first time for everything. I am covering the ways, etc the best I can to try to keep most of the excess off the machine, but can see that a complete cleanup is probably going to have to happen. I know it is kinda old question, have read a lot in the archives, but not confident with my current tooling is appropriate. Regards, Rick W. ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 12:42:31 -0500 From: Jon Elson Subject: Re: cast iron adapter Yup, cast iron is messy, but it generally cuts pretty well. You don't give the diameter, so I can't compute surface speed. But, you want to run around 100 SFPM for HSS, and maybe 200 or so with carbide tools. For 8" diameter, 200 SFPM would come to 95 RPM, so it sounds like you are in the right range. Be aware that any part of the casting that has not already been machined will contain sand, and be harder also due to the chilling of the molten iron caused by the mold. That mold surface will eat any tool fairly quickly. Jon ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:58:32 +0100 From: "Ernest Lear" Subject: Re: cast iron adapter The first cut into a new casting of iron is always hard but after a cut or two it becomes a lot easier, as its case harden and you got to take quite a bit off to remove this hard surface. Its also a dirty metal to machine. Ernest ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2003 18:00:25 -0000 From: "jrw064" Subject: Re: cast iron adapter Thanks for the kind replies. I found that I had a height problem with the cutting tool, lowered it a bit and things went a lot better. The finish of the cut is a lot better, so always something to learn I guess. I ended up using a cemented carbide tool and all in all did kinda ok. I tried to check the runout at the various stages to prove to myself that things were progessing ok; nice to see the needle stay still. Tis interesting to learn about how much the cast iron changes with temperature. Glad someone posted about that, or I probably would have gone too small a fit. So this afternoon is the drilling of the adapter for the screws. So guess I am underway. I appreciate the forum's help. Regards, Rick W. ------- Date: Fri, 25 Apr 2003 12:54:47 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Digest Number 1452 [cast iron adapter] > I'm going for flood coolant to try and reduce the mess. You can do C.I. dry. To keep down the mess put a magnet in an old sock and hang it near the cutting edge. If you omit the sock you never get that black dust off your magnet. John in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas Mini Mill Rusty file ------- Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:35:55 -0400 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Titanium Tubing? > I am looking for some Grade 5 Titanium Tubing .500 OD .080 ID. > All my local shops cannot help, anybody have any ideas where I might > find such an animal? Thanks, Smitty Smitty, You will not find this item. I have plenty of solid bars that can be drilled with an 0.080" drill. How long of a piece do you need? Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Mon, 05 May 2003 19:31:57 -0700 From: "todd smith" Subject: Re: Titanium Tubing? Thank you Dan, But I made a mistake in my Dimensions. I need a wall thickness of .080 .500 OD. What I have been doing is just drilling out the center, takes awhile, but it gets done. I thought if I could get my Ti. in TUBE, it would save a lot of time. I guess I will just stick to drilling. Thanks for the offer, Smitty -------- Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 21:04:10 -0700 From: Brian Pitt Subject: Re: Titanium Tubing? might check with some of these guys http://www.tubing-ez.com/tubing/0008142_0076020_1.html .080 might be a bit thicker walled than most of them are used to the heaviest I saw on a quick search was .5OD x .064 wall Brian ------- Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 02:03:53 -0400 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Titanium Tubing? I can get any dimensions that you wish from my titanium supplier. They have a $1000 minimum order, but I could combine it with one of my standard orders. How much of this, and what precision do you need? It will be much cheaper to have it non-precision drilled and you do a clean-up boring or honing final step. let me know quantities, I think 10 feet would be the minimum in 6" or 12" sections, but let me know what you are thinking. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 22:44:38 -0000 From: "dreilanderecht" Subject: Re: Steel veases Cast In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "Carl Corbeau" wrote: >If I was to take a notion to make a new cross-slide for my Clausing. >Would steel be ok to use? What are the pros & cons of steel versus cast. Depends partly what it is running against. Steel on steel is not a happy combination, while steel on cast iron or cast iron on cast iron are both good. It also depends what sort of steel you use, some cold rolled steel has built in stresses and really ought to be stress releived for this sort of application. (OK, castings should also be stress releived or aged too.) A merit of steel is that T slots should be much stronger. I have seen an old cross slide that was broken in half along the bottom of a T slot. Due to the manufacturer trying to keep the maximum swing over the slide, there wasn't much thickness of metal there. You can buy continuous cast iron bar which is very nice to machine. Of course it is round, which is a bit annoying for making large flat items from it. I trust you plan to machine the slide on a shaper, otherwise you are off topic for the list! :) regards John ------- Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 16:28:22 -0700 From: "todd smith" Subject: Re: Material buying warning! [long] [actually re a complaint about another company's change of policy that no longer favours the small purchaser.] That is one big reason I continue to use On-line metals!! John is the best to work with and has most in stock at anytime!! http://www.onlinemetals.com/ Smitty ------- Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2003 16:17:29 -0400 From: "John Guenther" Subject: RE: Unimat I classic and Aluminum material FORTAL is much harder than 6061-T6 aluminum. It should be able to be cut on the unimat, but with light cuts and careful attention to sharpening the tool bit. I have worked a little FORTAL on my Sherline mill and it was fine. John Guenther 'Ye Olde Pen Maker' Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 15:53:07 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: cold/hot rolled steel and heat hardening Usually hot rolled is black with mill scale on it. Usually soft as received. Cold rolled is shiny and is soft, but beware as it has built in stresses that can deform and warp when the surface is machined. If you want to relieve the stress heat to red and let cool slowly (Then it will scale and look like hot rolled, unless you protect the surface during heating.) Both are usually low carbon and will not harden by heat and quench, but can be surface or case hardened with proper chemicals. If you need steels that harden all the way through use either drill rod (US) or silver steel (GB) for rods or gauge plate (US) for flats. Comes in either water hardening or oil hardening. Heat to bright red and quench which leaves the steel "glass hard" and almost as brittle. So must be tempered to the hardness you want. As an aside if you are doing engines drill rod un hardend makes good pivot pins and can run against mild steel or bronze for many years. John in the high desert of California ------- Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2003 21:11:13 -0000 From: "Charles Hixon" Subject: Re: cold/hot rolled steel and heat hardening Isak, I'll buy off on everyone's answer to qusetions 1 & 2. Hot-rolled and cold-rolled steel could possibly be otherwise identical steel. On question 3, it depends on the alloying elements, if any, that are present in the steel sample. Different alloying elements in different amounts will cause the steel sample to respond to heat treatment differently. Simple example: if you have a 4130 grade of steel sample, it will have added carbon, chromium and molybdenum which allows the steel sample to be hardened by heating to 1650 degrees F and quenching in water (note, this distorts the part). Then you will temper it at 300 degrees F and it will be too hard to machine on the Sherline lathe. You can instead temper it at 1100 degrees F and you MIGHT be able to machine it on a Sherline lathe if you're lucky, your tool is sharp with the right rake, and you take light cuts. You can use a torch to do all of this if the part is small and you can identify the temperature of the steel by the color it is radiating. Blacksmiths could because they worked with it a lot. Folks who work in a heat-treat shop might be able to depending on their experience. The rest of us depend on thermocouples or paint sticks. If the steel sample is low alloy and low carbon, it will not respond to heat treatment and will not become hard. For these steels, you can add alloying elements so that it is capable of becoming hard. Common alloying elements to do this with include carbon, nitrogen and boron. But you are limited in a practical sense to the depth the alloying elements will penetrate the surface, eg: carbon: 0.12" max, nitrogen: 0.02" max, boron 0.003" max. Each application has its own process. The simplest way to add carbon is to "pack" carburize. One way to do this is to "pack" prepared hardwood charcoal (not the Sunday bbq briquetts) around the steel sample that is placed in a metal container and heat it up to 1750 degrees F for 12 hours and air cool. If the steel sample is still encased in charcoal, you have added the alloy carbon to a depth of maybe 0.07" deep. Then you go through a heat treatment process similar to that described in the previous two paragraphs. Sherline implies that if you want to carburize, you use leaded steel, which has lead added to improve machinability at the expense of impact strength. In general, Sherline equipment is not suited for machining steels subject to heat treatment. This review is a generalization with exceptions. Charles ------- Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2003 06:05:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Scott Meyer Subject: Re: cold/hot rolled steel and heat hardening I'm just going to add a little more detail to the answers before. 1. CRS looks like steel, but will often come oily or greasy to protect it from rust. If you get 1" square CRS, the size you will actually get is .996-.998 in that area. It is pretty flat and square on all sides. HRS does have a black scale on it, and does not come greased. If you get a 1" square of HRS, if you look at the end, you will notice that 2 sides are parallel and that 2 sides have a bulge in them. 2. CRS is essentially squeezed into shape and size while it is cold. HRS is shaped while it is hot. CRS has lots of internal stresses, caused by it being squeezed. HRS doesn't have those stresses because it is done hot and allows those to relax as it cools. If you take a 1/2" x 2" x 12" CRS bar, and cut it lengthwise down the middle, put it up to a straight edge, you'll see how much your bars bent after getting cut. I tend to dislike CRS for just that reason, and prefer HRS for almost everything, but that is personal preference. HRS is more gummy, and has a relatively hard scale on it, but with sharp tools isn't an issue. HRS is also a little cheaper, but not much. Someone else provided some excellent answers to the heat treating questions, that is obviously much more knowledgeable than I. Scott ------- Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:25:33 -0000 From: "Charles Hixon" Subject: Re: Milling Cast Iron In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, "Daniel Kaschner" wrote: > I have a couple of old cast iron table saw tops sitting around and > would like to use them to make shop tools, etc. Check their hardness with a file in a hidden area. If the file grabs into it, it's soft enough for HSS. If you have a difficult time getting the file to bite, you'll need to use carbide tooling and a milling machine beefier than a Sherline. Charles Hixon ------- Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:07:17 -0400 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: RE: Milling Cast Iron A hint for milling cast iron: Make up a chip shield out of sheet metal and attach it to a very strong magnet. Place the shield where most of the chips (dust) flies. The magnet will catch a large amount of the dust. You will have to stop and clean it often. You can also use a shop vac but I hate the noise of them. I should mention: Don't attach the magnet to the cast iron or the mill will gum up. I often use plexiglas or cardboard shields on my mill which attach to the aluminum table or are held by flexible arms, etc. I just replace one of these with a steel shield with a magnet, or sometimes just a magnet, but they're harder to clean off. ------- Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:55:52 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Milling Cast Iron Wrap the magnet with clear wrap or put it in a baggie, easy to clean off then. ------- Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:03:23 -0400 From: "Ron Ginger" Subject: Re: Buying metal question >Can someone please explain what the terms "centerless". "centerless >ground" and "rough turned" mean when buying round metal stock? Centerless grinding is a process where the stock is supported by a fence and a roller against the grinding wheel. There are no centers drilled into the stock ends. For practical purposes it means a nicely ground finish on the stock. I've never heard the term 'rough turned' applied to raw stock. The most common stock is either Cold rolled (drawn) which will have a smooth, shiny surface and Hot Rolled which will be rough and black finish. Cold rolled can have stress in it that will cause distortion when it's turned or cut. Hot rolled is nasty to cut through the outside scale, but less likely to distort from stress. ron ginger ------- Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 15:45:02 -0000 From: "azbruno" Subject: Re: Steel Alloy The McMaster-Carr online catalog has a descriptions for the different metals. I find the site a good resource for materials. According to that... "12L14 Carbon Steel: Low-carbon steel contains lead, sulfur and phosphorus. Excellent machining characteristics and good ductility make it easy to bend, crimp and rivet. It is very difficult to weld and cannot be case hardened. Meets ASTM A108. " -Bruno ------- Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:48:52 -0000 From: "speedphoto300" Subject: Re: Steel Alloy Indeed, the "L" in the middle means lead. I once worked in the screw machine department at the plant where Smith Bearing cam followers are made, these are (were) made of 11L17, gas curburized then induction hardened in the race area. As far as I know they are still made that way. Joe ------- Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 03:42:31 -0000 From: "Charles Hixon" Subject: Re: Carbon steel?? In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, "pacosoide" wrote: > I just bought some steel stock at my local scrap dealer. > It is magnetic, these were round rods and are covered with a thin > layer of what appears to be copper. I cut one of the rods and the cut > surface is very shiny. It is not stainless steel, it did produce a > lot of sparks which from my previous readings in the forum indicate a > large content of carbon. I tried to turn some of it, it makes small > curls, black, doesn't machine very easy... > Anyone has a good guess what kind is it?? Without knowing any more, I would guess it is AISI (SAE) 5140 (UNS G51400) intended to be used for coil springs but was rejected because of a high inclusion content that caused premature fatigue failures. What do I win? I am assuming that the "copper" surface finish has a reasonably high quality, almost cold-drawn appearance, and that you live near a community which supplies components to a transportation industry. If these assumptions are not true, I want some more hints about the local industry, the diameter or the rod, and another guess. The scrap dealer would have some clues about it's origin that would be very helpful. To have better luck machining it, you might anneal it (1650F for 1 hour, SLOW(furnace) cool to 1300F, air cool). A typical machining process is to rough it out almost to finish dimensions in the annealed state, heat treat it (1550F for 1 hour, oil quench, temper at 1150F for two hours, water cool), then finish machine with light cuts to finish dimensions to remove the deacrburized surface and the distortion caused by the heat treatment. BTW, there are magnetic stainless steels like 410 and 416 which behave as you describe. If you have some nitric acid, polish a spot and dab some on. If the metal does not instantly turn black, it is likely to be a magnetic stainless steel. Charles Hixon ------- Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 22:33:44 -0500 From: "Dan Horn" Subject: Re: Carbon steel?? sounds like a copperweld grounding rod used to provide driven ground connections for radio transmitting towers. Happy Chips Dan ------- Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 06:52:36 -0700 From: k6sufx~xxdirecway.com Subject: Re: Carbon steel?? Sounds as if it may be welding rod. I buy it sometimes when I need some rod stock for use in applications where the better quality drill rod is not needed. Comes in various diameters and alloys. Good stuff for many uses. ------- Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:44:09 -0000 From: "Charles Hixon" Subject: Re: Carbon steel?? It's possible, but welding rod does not typically contain high amounts of carbon as the writer suggested this sample did. Copper is sometimes used as a solid lubricant to draw certain steels through dies. Knowledge of the rod diameter would be helpful. Charles Hixon ------- Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 19:15:09 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Free Machining ,Non-Leaded ,"Green Steel" A new type of free machining steel, without containing lead, is designated as 12T14, with the "T" indicating tin. It was developed in the late '90's: http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et0799/et0799s16.html It is currently being produced by Laurel Steel, a division of Harris: http://www.laurelsteel.com/12t14.html Does anyone know of a REAL ("Guessing" Verboten!) source of small amounts...with "small amounts" meaning like a 12-inch length of 1-1/2- inch OD bar for a poor hobbyest. I recently purchased a same sized length of 12L14 rod from Express Metal from which to turn a replacement arbor for my Benchmaster horizontal mill. I would also like to machine such an arbor from 12T14 and compare both the machining operation and the results. Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 22:06:28 -0000 From: "ammcoman2003" Subject: Re: Free Machining ,Non-Leaded ,"Green Steel" Hi there. I have been keeping up with the correspondence but have been silent up to now. I had not come across this steel but will see if Metal Supermarkets have it here in Toronto. It will have to wait until mid-November as I'm going away for a month. Have you ever tried 1144 (stressproof)? I was amazed how nicely it machines - up there with 12L14. The pro's in our Model club use it for crankshafts as it will heat treat quite well. Just get it red and dunk in oil. That's it. Regards, Geoff Kingma ------- Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 16:39:48 -0000 From: "Art Volz" Subject: Re: Leaded steel, NON-Green steel 12L14 Larry--Free-machining, leaded, 12L14 steel is still readily available within the USA and is probably the most commonly used free-machining steel. Free-machining steels, beside having much increased machine- abilty ratings, also give much better as-cut surface finishes that may be good enuf as is without grinding. It is available from numerous distributors and in small quantities. I utilize http://www.metalexpress.net for several reasons: they sell in small quantities; there are no cutting fees--twelve 1-inch slices costs the same as one 12-inch long piece; you don't have to scru around asking for a quote, their web site is smart; prices appear to be in the ball park with other distributors; for me they have one of their warehouses in Dallas, so I can get what I want in a quick couple of days and cheaper than running around Houston trying to haggle for a piece; they have a larger selection than most--if I ever cut any AMMCO bull gears, pieces of 6-1/4 inch OD 9/16-inch thick pre- sliced Aluminum is a "done deal". Of course the cheapest process by which to acquire "hobby metals" is called the "Lunch Box Express", but your buddy working at "ACME Engineering & Automatic Lathe Works" would need an attache case for a 12-inch long by 1-inch OD rod of 12L14. :-) An interesting table camparing various free-machining steels is at: http://www.laurelsteel.com/tin_data_sheet.html (NB: Machineability Comparisons) A Table listing Mechanical Properties of various steels from Ryerson- Tull. (Note that left sidebar allows access to property tables of other type metals.) http://tinyurl.com/pwi5 Ich habe milch! Haben sie 12T14? Art (Ober der Houston...und Alles!) ------- Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:09:20 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Cutting copper >>Copper, on the other hand, is gummy and noxious to cut. Of course this depends a little on the alloy you're using, but it's definitely not brass. I'll second what Stan said about the lube, both in terms of effectiveness and in terms of nasty cleanup. Even with a good tool and lube, though, it's still noxious to cut. Tom << On Fri, 24 Oct 2003, Ken Jenkins wrote: > I must have worked with something heavily alloyed because I've never > had an experience with any copper being "gummy". Granted I've only > worked with stuff used to make electrical connectors and heat conductors > so maybe there's a lot of something else in there making it behave. Mind my asking where you get your copper? Got a fun machining story. It's a bit off-topic, but I'll bring it back to Taig hardware. I swear. At work I'm building out a cryostat for testing some new detectors we're getting. This is the first honest to goodness cryostat I've built out myself, so I asked to see the inside of one that uses the same detector, and is already in service. All of this resulted in a visit to IFA in Hilo, Hawaii. I got a tour of their machine shop. It's enough to make a home shop machinist drool himself dry. They've got a two axis wire EDM, a CNC tilt-bed lathe, a gorgeous Monarch manual toolroom lathe, and not one but two enormous CNC mills, one with a toolchanger. The one with the toolchanger is almost bigger than the house I'm living in. After wiping up after myself, we went to see their cryostat. The outside was aluminum, but everything inside the radiation shield was made out of copper. It was a beautiful piece of machining. It was also nice to see how well it was treated by the people there. It's nice to see people who appreciate good work. Of course all this depressed me to no end. The purpose of my visit was to take notes on what I'd need to make for our own cryostat. Copper! Gulp! What kept going through my mind was that nasty experience I'd had cutting copper, where the chips came off in a stringy gooey mass and the surface finish looked rough enough to use as sandpaper. GULP! So I hope you don't mind my asking, Ken: WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR COPPER!? Don't make me face the gooey stuff again! I'm going to be cutting a lot of these parts on my Taig (see? I told you I'd get back to Taig hardware) so I'll happily post the results in the Pictures area. Thanks, Tom P.S. 6061-T651 aluminum is really nice to cut. It's harder to find than hardware store aluminum, especially if you're scrounging for it. But it's scroungable. P.P.S. If there's a university nearby that has any sort of engineering or science department, check their dumpsters. When I lived in Texas, a couple of the departments chucked a lot of good stuff. Great source for stainless (vacuum systems), aluminum (optics systems), and motors and electronics. ------- Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 22:33:34 +0100 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Re: Cutting copper >Mind my asking where you get your copper? Tom - I've been making some copper washers today from 15mm bar, no hassle, no dramas. Just turned it to OD, drilled and parted off the four washers I needed. Didn't bother with any coolant for 4 washers and used the standard SDJCR turning tool I seem to use for most things, parting was with an indexable tool too. Tools need to be really sharp (new inserts) and it machines very nicely when in "hard" state. I suspect the gummy stuff you had was annealed! OD cuts were 1mm at 500rpm and 75mm/min feed. Finish was perfect. Parting was done at 500rpm and 30mm/min. Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:14:07 -0400 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Copper I get it locally from a place up in Toledo so I doubt if that's going to help you in Hawaii (I would be glad to deliver your order personally if you'll pay for transportation however ... just because I'm such a nice guy!). I can try to find out what the specific designation of the copper rod is however. Machineability I suspect has to do with the alloy composition and (as someone else mentioned here) the hardness i.e. the softer is is the less machineable. (hmmm my spell checker doesn't like that word but I'm stickin' with it ....doesn't like the word stickin' either...) Are you building the cryostat to eliminate noise with a CCD camera? Ken J. ------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 22:49:03 -1000 (HST) From: Tom Benedict Subject: Re: Re: Copper Hey, if I could somehow convince work to pay for it, you betcha! > the less machineable. (hmmm my spell checker doesn't like that word but > I'm stickin' with it...doesn't like the word stickin' either...) I like it, too, no matter what your spell checker says. I'd be curious what the alloy and hardness is. My guess is you're right, I was probably cutting pure copper in a dead-soft state. > Are you building the cryostat to eliminate noise with a CCD camera? It's an infrared detector, but yeah, it's the same basic idea. I think they used copper in theirs because of thermal stability. Copper conducts heat better than almost everything else besides maybe silver or diamond, so you can get really uniform temperatures all over the thing. Turns out for the tests they're wanting to do in the cryostat I'm working on, temperature regulation may not be such a big deal. So I may stick with 6061 aluminum. We'll see. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 17:03:49 -0000 From: "kgcyclist" Subject: Re: cutting brass and copper I have been cutting copper for quite a while because the work I do typically uses copper for conductivity reasons. I do a lot of CNC milling of 0.005 to 0.020 thick copper. Copper is very gummy and hard to cut. The best way to cut copper is to run the RPM's high and use a fairly high feedrate. In milling, I ALWAYS run the Taig mill at max RPM (10,000 or so), and use as sharp a tool as possible. The duller the tool, the more likely the mill will catch the copper and either break the mill or gouge the copper. The same applies with the lathe. At my previous job, one of my machinists became so upset cutting some copper rod that he just shoved the knob as hard as he could into the part in frustration. It cut the part clean, and he was dumbfounded. (It was the first time he ever cut copper.) He learned not to be tentative with Copper - once the tool cuts, steadily push it through as fast as is safe to feed it. Another warning - the burrs that come off copper come off as long, winding, razor-sharp strips. Watch your hands around those pieces, and be very careful when you pick them up. Kevin ------- Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 07:57:19 -0800 From: "Brown, Mark A (SPO)" Subject: RE: Supplier I can't stress enough to scrounge around a local scrap yards. If you live in a big enough area you will have several 'real' machine shops in the area. They discard they end pieces and many of these are very big by our standards. I pick up aluminum for about 60 cents a pound and brass for about 70 cents a pound. This is regardless of the shape. As you may have noticed the price varies greatly with the shape from vendors. This means I can get some awesome deals. Every time I go I pick up about $20 worth and now have a pretty good stock for future projects. And at that price I don't worry too much about waste or mistakes. The last time I went they had 1/4" X 3" flats about 4' long. They had a 5 foot square bin full of them. I walked away with about 5 of them. It almost brought a tear to my eye to leave the rest there :) Anyway, scrounge around. This is a hobby and it can get very expensive if you insist on purchasing off the shelf for everything. Mark A. Brown www.zora-arkus.com ------- Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 16:34:02 -0000 From: "Charles Hixon" Subject: Re: Supplier Exactly. It's just a mindset. Make the contacts with friends around metals, you will find junk laying along the roadside, parking lots, garage sales, and your own auto parts discards. When the construction crews are finished at a site, help them pick up. No. 5 and larger rebar is excellent machining stock after you clean it up. I've disassembled old fuse boxes for the copper busses and appliances for various frame components. You don't need to "dumpster dive" if it's not in the dumpster or poking out. I find it much faster than I can machine it and therefore have become discriminating. But still, although I have some exotic materials as free scrap, I've had to buy some, like german silver and nickel is sort of hard to come by around here. Also, some shapes are difficult to find, like larger blocks of aluminum that have to be purchased. You might also find tubing stock for rings difficult because the ID or OD is always off, although I've been extremely lucky here. Finds are for fixturing stock, practice runs on my CNC, and production. Purchased material can be justified for production only when it becomes apparent I will have trouble finding it. Charles Hixon ------- Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:07:22 -0000 From: "onecooltoolfool" Subject: Re: Source for "dead soft aluminum rod"? In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, "Charles Fox" wrote: > Am looking for "dead soft" rod I can bend with my hands -- o/d > about 1/8 ~ 1/4" -- to form very complex headers for a > 1/12-scale model car. Try welding rod. ------- Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:26:57 -0500 From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Re: Source for "dead soft aluminum rod"? I second the welding rod. Go to your local welding supply and ask for 1100 rod, which is pure aluminum. They should have it in 1/8" diameter. I don't know if it comes any larger. This is about as soft as you'll get with aluminum. The other aluminum rods are going to be alloys, alloyed to change the material properties of the metal. Jim Ash ------- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:42:46 -0000 From: "Charles Hixon" Subject: Re: Source for "dead soft aluminum rod"? This rod may not be dead soft if it is drawn to size because the cold working hardens it. Charles Hixon ------- Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:59:40 -0600 From: "Daniel Kaschner" Subject: Working Stainless Steel This has probably been addressed before in this group, so I apologize ahead of time. I have a project that calls for stainless steel (at least as far as I know). I have a Tormek sharpener, but an older model. The new ones have a "micro-adjustable" support bar. It is really nothing more than a support bar with one of the two supports threaded, so that you can 'micro-adjust' the height by turning a nut on the threads. A nice feature, that makes grinding angle adjustment a two handed task (as opposed to the three hands needed using the old system). The Tormek is water cooled, so I figure that they cannot be using plain old steel because of rust. Can't be aluminum, because they need the strength, and no stainless because of cost. I was right these parts are specially chromed, something I am not going to do. the major trouble is that they want $30.00 for each support (I use two for convenience when sharpening). $60.00 seems kind of steep for something I can make myself. (Heck with a lathe and mill I should be able to make anything, in this size range!) I am assuming that stainless is probably the best bet for making my own supports. I have never worked stainless before. My questions are: 1. Is there a better alternative to stainless, that is rust-resistant, easier to work, and readily available? 2. Is special tooling required to effectively work stainless? I have HSS tooling and carbide? Is carbide required? 3. Are there any special tricks to working stainless? 4. If carbide is required, do I need carbide center drills? I only have HSS right now, and this project will require center drilling and countersink tooling. Thanks for any help and suggestions. I am trying to setup to make it easier for my sons when I teach them to sharpen tooling as a part of our Christmas gift-making efforts, starting real-soon-now. :-) Dan ------- Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 14:09:28 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Working Stainless Steel Search the message archives of the group(s) and you'll get a better picture of what you're looking for. HSS tools will be fine. Cutting speed depends on the grade of stainless you end up with. Generally 25 sfpm is a decent starting point with HSS. The chips will be stringy and tend to not break. Some grades of stainless will work-harden quicker than others so use sharp tools and cutting oil. Keep the nose radius of your tool around .02 or less. Use sharper rake angles than for steel but not as steep as for aluminum. Regular (sharp) center drills will be fine. The trick to stainless is slow speed and fairly aggressive feeds. If you take too light a cut the surface will harden and destroy the tool. Too much speed will do the same thing. Avoid getting the piece warm when machining. This is a sign of excessive friction and will cause tool damage and distortion of the part. I guess a good common grade of stainless for you would be some 304L. Regular 304 requires a little less speed and generates higher cuttting force for a given tool. 316 is really common and isn't much different than 304, maybe a little harder. 308 tends to work harden a little quicker than the others so maybe stay away from that one. Keith Green Vancouver, BC ------- Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:21:21 -0000 From: "Charles Hixon" Subject: Re: Working Stainless Steel Dan, I can help with just the first question. Stainless will not resist halide (fluorine, chlorine, bromine, iodine) contamination, so if the parts are exposed to softened water, recirculated water, salt, etc, the stainless steel will corrode. If you get it wet, you should dry it off completely, especially in crevices, before storage because it will corrode the fastest in stagnant wet environments. In general, when you have a choice within a cost and want better corrosion resistant, consider a stainless steel that: (1) is a softer grade (2) has a higher nickel and molybdenum content (3) has a lower iron and carbon content. Avoid the machinable grades of stainless because they are the least corrosion resistant, and you are better off with carbon steel. If these alternatives are not reasonable, you should duplicate the part you are replacing, plating and all, since they have also given thought to the design. If you are able to spend more, consider a nickel alloy. However plating a lower alloy grade is probably cheaper. Charles Hixon ------- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 10:07:41 +1100 From: "John Haddy" Subject: RE: Working Stainless Steel Daniel, Have you considered brass? Is it possible that the Tormek part is chromed brass rather than steel? John Haddy Sydney, Australia ------- Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:30:02 -0600 From: "Daniel Kaschner" Subject: RE: Working Stainless Steel John, I have thought of brass. In fact it would be the preferred way to go (easy to mill and I have a lot on hand), except that this jig has a relatively long arm that projects over the grinding wheel and is only supported on one side. This arm keeps the jigs it supports square to the grinding stone. I figure that I need a relatively strong material to avoid flexing (and therefore going out of square) when pressure is exerted. The manufactured version is chromed steel (per the manufacturer) and vent with steel there were times when I first started that I exerted too much pressure, resulting in skewed edges. (I have since learned to be a little more patient and use less pressure, as in most things in life, it works better that way. :-) ) I still may use brass for the two rods that are connected to the long support arm. Thanks for the suggestion! Dan ------- Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 09:58:55 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: MIC-6, Alpase K100S Cast Ground Tooling plate Matieral builder4wd wrote: > I came across some aluminum called MIC-6, Alpase K100S "cast ground > tooling plate" and I was wondering how this material compares to > extruded 6061 aluminum. How do they compare in terms of strength, > hardness, and machinability? Are they similar materials? I didn't think 6061 was extruded. I have a few pieces of K100 cast plate, and made the very thin, entablature (basically a ring) that you see in my beam engine parts pix. Machines very crisply, and appears to stay straight after extensive milling. I haven't compared the numbers, but I'd say they are probably a little better. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:04:05 -0600 From: Bill Aycock Subject: What is "Semi-Steel"? In various ads and tool descriptions I see the term "Semi-Steel" used, particularly with respect to chucks. I may be demonstrating my ignorance, but- what is it? how does it differ from plain old steel? Help- Bill Aycock - W4BSG Woodville, Alabama ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:26:58 -0000 From: "bonnietr6" Subject: Re: What is "Semi-Steel"? >From a metallurgical Dictionary: Semi-Steel -- Cast iron (not steel) of high quality, obtained by using a large percentage of steel scrap with the pig iron. Semi-steel is used most often in chucks and casters, since it is more shock and fracture resitant than cast iron. It appears Semi-steel is an old term that has been applied to a number of modern materials. It is not in my ASTM Metals handbook, and has only a brief mention in my 1939 Kents, it also is not in my Mark's guide either. Only mention is in the metalurgical dictionary mentioned before. It seems to be applied now to any high strength cast iron. There is an article here that might explain it better: http://members.lycos.nl/cvdv/75yearsofinoculation.htm Charles ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:39:51 -0600 From: "Richard Meredith" Subject: Re: Re: What is "Semi-Steel"? It is still around. The modern semi-steel is actually a nodular iron. Gray iron castings have carbon in flecks spread through the iron matrix. These flecks act as stress risers (if you have ever scratched glass to cut it, you have seen what a stress riser will do) that makes the iron prone to easy cracking. Nodular iron has aluminum and other alloys added to cause the free carbon to glob up into spheres in the iron matrix. The smooth spheres ease the stress risers, and make the iron much more ductile while retaining the lower melting point of gray iron with its ease of casting and free machining characteristics. Many things you think would be steel castings are make from this iron. It's great as long as you don't need to weld it. ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:48:30 -0500 From: "" Subject: Re: What is semi-steel is now known as Meehanite. You can get all the information from their web site: www.meehanite.com Where I used to work, we used it for all our die shoes and die set plates. Have their spec book in my office. There are only 2 or 3 foundries that can make it as it is a patented formula. Earl Bower bower machine www.bowermachineandtool.com ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:40:09 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Semi-steel > semi-steel is now known as Meehanite I did not know that, but I do know that meehanite is beautiful stuff to machine. I made a model airplane deisel engine with meehanite for the piston and it was a joy to turn. (Except for that black dust of course.) ------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 06:19:41 -0000 From: "sauer38h" Subject: Re: Semi-steel > semi-steel is now known as Meehanite I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. In thirty years in mechanical engineering I've never heard of meehanite being called semi-steel (which proves nothing but explains my skepticism). Meehanite is a proprietary process for making gray cast iron in a range of physical properties. The resulting material is generally called "meehanite" (there are actually four slightly different types) but it's still gray cast iron. Gray cast iron has somewhere between about 3.5 and 5% carbon, most of it in graphite preciptates (which give fractured surfaces that gray color). As already noted, the term "semisteel" is generally obsolete, but it used to mean cast iron with steel - usually 20% scrap, but could be up to 70% - added to the melt. Carbon content is usually less than 3%. Older editions (1930s to 1950s) of Machinery's Handbook, Kent's, and the Standard Handbook (Marks) have at least brief mention of semi-steel and meehanite. Gray cast iron is an ideal material for machine beds, precision ways, etc. and is still specified for those applications. And I agree, it does machine nicely. Nowadays, I've only seen the term "semi-steel" used in advertising blurbs for chucks and vises. Whether it refers to the same material that my fifty- to eighty-year-old handbooks do, I can't say. W. Whitelaw ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 22:37:30 -0800 From: "Steve B." Subject: Re: Re: Semi-steel >> Meehanite is a proprietary process for making gray cast iron in a range of physical properties. The resulting material is generally called "meehanite" (there are actually four slightly different types) but it's still gray cast iron. << I agree but could not find the words to do so as nicely as you did. Meehanite is grey cast iron. -it's a trade name like Accroloy SB ------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 10:12:27 -0500 (EST) From: Kirk M Scammon Subject: Re: Re: Broke my tool post! [atlas_craftsman group] Go to the junk yard and get an axel from a truck, the steel in them would be good for making a new toolpost. The steel used in axels is usually 4130 or something similar and can be hardened, and you will have plenty left over for other projects. Regards Kirk, 12X36 A/C & MF mill ------- Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:44:04 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Aluminum plate suppliers on-line > > can anyone recommend a good source for 1/2" and 3/4" aluminum > > grade 6061 flat plate that can be ordered cut to size. I am > > not looking for scrap pieces. Dan > http://www.onlinemetals.com will do that, but they're on the west coast, > so shipping might be more expensive than somebody closer. Dave Hylands Thanks Dave. I was trying to see if the metal suppliers on eBay are competitively priced. The onlinemetals.com site has 6061 aluminum 0.5" X 12" X 24" plate and it costs $98.78 plus shipping. On eBay, user ID speedymetal, has the same dimensioned tooling plate for $46 plus $10 shipping. I just got two from them plus they are quoting me on the other pieces I need, with no cutting charges. looks like eBay wins again. Thanks, Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.net ------- Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 18:17:58 -0500 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Re: Aluminum plate suppliers on-line I just received my shipment from Speedy Metals. Perfect pieces of dead-flat tooling plate. Great prices, lightning fast shipping, great customer service. I recommend them completely and without hesitation. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.net ------- Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 02:56:39 -0000 From: "builder4wd" Subject: Difference between flat bar, plate, and cast aluminum? After looking around the metal supply store, I'm a little confused with all the variations of aluminum they have. I noticed that plate aluminum has a flatter, smoother finish, while the flat bar has a rougher surface finish, yet supposedly they are both 6061 aluminum. What's the difference in properties between the two? Strength, machinability? Is there a difference in the forming process used? It seems that the flat bar was extruded, but what about the plate aluminum? It had a much smoother finish. I also noticed some "Alcoa MIC-6" cast aluminum plates. These have plastic protection sheets stuck to the sides. I bought some, and when I peeled off the plastic, there was "6061" printed on the side. The finish was quite similar to the aluminum plate. I'm a bit confused as to what I have here, as I thought cast aluminum was different from 6061. Can anyone clarify between the varieties of 6061 aluminum, how they relate in terms strength and other properties. Thanks!! ------- Date: Sat, 1 May 2004 10:11:42 -0400 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Difference between flat bar, plate, and cast aluminum? All 6061 Aluminum alloys are not the same. The application is the key. The finish is just that. Bar stock can be rolled or extruded. Plate stock , such as jig plate is commonly ground on a large abrasive belt sander or on a Blanchard grinder. The cast alloy is to ensure stability when machining to eliminate distortion. The cast is prone to breakage with shearing load. The bar is much stronger. I used both to build jigs and fixtures, etc. during my career. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Sat, 01 May 2004 09:42:06 -0700 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Difference between flat bar, plate, and cast aluminum? Finding T100 aluminum plate was a delightful surprise for me! It cuts quite crisply, doesn't warp, and takes an excellent finish. I believe it is cast as opposed to being rolled very similar to 6061 otherwise. Cast aluminum plate is good for tooling plates, and FLYWHEELS! I've also made entablatures from it, a thin U-shaped hoop of aluminum used to support the ends of the radius rods in my Baby Beam steam engine. Stay away from extrusions, except for building shelving! They machine poorly. T4, T6 etc. are the tempering of the aluminum. Affects the way the metal cuts, and how it handles stress. Also if it can be formed by bending. This is not a scientific definition of metals, but might help. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 12:38:59 -0500 From: "Bad Brad" Subject: Re: Re: Difference between flat bar, plate, and cast aluminum? > I have some plate that is stamped "Stretched 6061-T6." What does > stretched mean? It has a smooth finish with a directional "grain" > that runs lengthwise 6061-T6 is an aluminum alloy. Pound for pound it is the best choice if you want high strength to weight. The T-6 refers to the strength treatment. Drawing aluminum work hardens it. 6061 T-6 is very common and is easily machined when cutting fluid is used. Tap magic, WD-40, parifin based A-9 fluids all work well. >I'm assuming that this piece has been ground? I highly doubt that the plate was ground. Aluminum doesn't take to grinding very well and when used with an iron oxide wheel can produce exposive dust. It was probably extruded. Almost all aluminum bar stock is extruded. Bad Brad Rabid Weasel Racing Team ------- Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 06:26:01 -0000 From: "edgerrin322000" Subject: turning custom made cutters or bits I am going to turn some 2-step countersink bits on my Lathe. What is the best choice of steel to make these from and how should I go about tempering the bits once I have completed them? I will not be using these for drilling metal, only hardwoods. Any suggestion would be helpful. Thanks everyone. Will ------- Date: Thu, 06 May 2004 16:30:37 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: turning custom made cutters or bits Will For making Taps, Dies and tools such as you are making I have had the best luck with name brand A1 ( Air hard ) drill rod. A1 has had the least amount of warping from hardening and tempering. Name brand metal from a reputable supply house will be the most expensive but will come with hardening and tempering instructions. I would suggest Starret or Sheffield. It will also be more forgiving and easier to work with. Cheap metal like cheap tools is rarely a good value for the dollar. Jerry Kieffer ------- Subject: RE: Malleable iron vs. cast iron [oldtools] From: "Peter Williams" Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 14:57:18 +1000 > From: Jim Thompson [mailto:jdthompsoncax~xxsbcglobal.net] > I know that ordinary cast iron comes directly from a blast furnace. I > am not sure where malleable iron comes from, but I am going to venture > an uneducated guess that it had to go to an open hearth furnace for > further refinement before it became malleable iron. Cast iron has a > very high carbon content and has to be cooked to reduce that carbon. > My guess on the malleable vs. gray tools is that the malleable cost > more to produce and was also another step in a casting process that > they didn't need. Jim: Plain, grey cast iron has the carbon as graphite flakes all through it. It is brittle and doesn't like shock loads (except maybe in compression). Malleable cast iron, nodular cast iron, and spheroidal graphite cast iron have their graphite in small nodules, rather than finely divided as flakes. This gives the iron a toughness that isn't present in plain grey cast iron. It is used for things that get high loads, immpact loads, etc that would typically cause cracking and breakage of ordinary grey cast iron. For example the Ford 9" diff is a pretty strong piece and up to use in light trucks, high performance cars, etc. When one is to be used for a racing application (Ie. drag racing) that would see abnormally abusive loads they specify an SG casting (you can tell the good one as they have a capital N cast into them to signify "nodular" iron) to prevent failure of the casting. To get the graphite to form nodules they add a third component (magnesium I think) as part of the smelting process. Peter Williams ------- Subject: RE: Malleable iron vs. cast iron From: "michaeldunham" Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 15:13:07 -0000 "To get the graphite to form nodules they add a third component (magnesium I think) as part of the smelting process." The nodules are formed by heat treating the cast iron. The cast iron is heated to 1650-1750 degrees F and held at temperature for 20-72 hrs depending on size of load. It is the rapidly cooled to 1400 degrees F (2-6 hrs). Then is is slowly cooled (5-15 degrees F/hr) through the critical range. ------- Subject: RE: Malleable iron vs. cast iron From: "George Langford" Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 19:02:25 -0400 (EDT) Hello arn obsessed Galoots! Malleable arn starts out its life as a mixture of low-carbon arn and arn carbide (Fe3C). The shrinkage of this white arn ('cuz its fracture is white, in contrast to grey arn, whose fracture is well, ahem, grey) upon freezing is much greater than that of grey arn. Lots of distortion. And then it has to be annealed to cause the arn carbide to decompose into graphite (a little spheroids) plus more low carbon arn. That distortion is why very few planes were made malleable. They'd have to be far heavier and would require more machining to straighten 'em out. Almost every cast arn drill I've come across has been made of malleable arn 'cuz their frames are more-or-less symmetrical and thin enough to be straightened after annealing. Ductile arn has been treated with magnesium (and other stuff) in the liquid state to change the way the graphite forms during freezing. That's a more modern approach, but it was developed too late for our antique planes. HTH. Best regards, George Langford http://www.georgesbasement.com/ ------- Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 08:23:10 -0600 From: Mark Zirinsky Subject: machining sterling silver [sherline group] This is a different approach, but I am adapting yet another series of techniques, so here we go. I have cast some large cups, both in sterling and fine silver. (total cast was about 800 grams, trimmed down to about 575 grams after sprue and gate removal). Now, one of the steps I am doing is machining these on a sherline lathe - lets me superimpose a perfect machine circle on top of a hammer finish, for contrast. Anyone in the group have experience machining sterling, I am having some trouble with "galling" when cutting. Mark Zirinsky, Denver ------- Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:59:01 -0000 From: "Glen Reeser" Subject: Re: machining sterling silver Silver is darned difficult to machine. It is way too soft and way too sticky. I have made triple lead threads on my cast sterling silver pen barrels. Collets would have helped, the tool would catch and in a very short time my beautiful pen was a twisted piece of scrap in my three jaw. My advice is to support the piece with a mandrel made for the job and take slow shallow cuts. Glen Reeser ------- Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:57:57 -0400 From: "Jeff Demand" Subject: Re: machining sterling silver Mark, I try to avoid turning sterling, it is a difficult material. Use VERY sharp tools ground for copper. ( http://www.littlemachineshop.com/Reference/RakeRelief.php ) A lubricant helps to prevent silver build up on the tool. Old references mention using fats, beeswax is also a possibility. Try whatever you have. Use fairly high speeds and light but steady cuts. Experiment with feed rates. Watch out for chucking securely, with silver's softness and its tendency to grab you can have a rather nasty situation ;-( Jeff Demand Designs Analog/Digital Modelling & Goldsmithing http://www.aztec-net.com/~jdemand ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 06:36:46 -0600 From: Mark Zirinsky Subject: Re: Re: machining sterling silver Jeff, thank you for the idea, beeswax is the standard lubricant when working silver through traditional gold and silversmithing techniques, i use it to lubricate the blade of a jeweler's saw (which is nothing more than a thin wire with notches or teeth, stretched tightly in a frame) but it hadn't occurred to me to use it on the lathe. Also, in traditional silverwork, the "solid state" of the beeswax keeps the filings and cuttings from loading up directly on the cutting surfaces. The softest metal I have used for a finished object is fine silver; it is so soft, I made a 2" cylinder, with walls about 0.200" thick; it can be deformed simply by leaning on it. I have worked this on a hand powered carving machine that I built. Mark Zirinsky, Denver ------- Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 13:54:26 -0400 From: "Jeff Demand" Subject: Re: machining sterling silver Mark, fine silver is really too soft to use unless you need it for enamelling. With a .2" thickness you could cast the piece in sterling leaving space to apply wax for a second in situ casting of the fine silver. I still remember an oval box with inlayed ebony and a friction fit cover from twenty odd years ago. I accidentally made it out of fine silver, dropped it just after finishing... The second one in sterling was much faster to make. Jeff ------- Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:35:31 EDT From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Facing aluminum [atlas_craftsman group] My first question would be; "Is you lathe equipped with power cross feed?" If not it is difficult not to leave rings on facing cuts as you let go of the crank and take another "bite". You must keep a steady feed. Without power crossfeed you hands do a dance to keep the crank turning at a constant rate. When you grind your tool (with that small radius at the cutting end) touch up the edges with an oil stone. Facing cuts are difficult sometimes as the speed of the cut is constantly changing as you feed across the work. The exact angles on tools are not that important for hobby work. Those "book angles" were developed to get the maximum metal removed in the shortest time and with minium down time to grind new faces on the tools. Not our situation at all. I keep a good smooth Arkansas stone in my tool drawer and use it to touch up tool edges. Harbor Frieght sells a little pack of diamond hones too that seem to work pretty well (even though they don't seem to last long). Use a good wheel on your grinder too, some of the wheels furnished are sure not the best for tool grinding, more suited to grinding the end on a screw driver. (Shouldn't say that as the proper grind on a screw driver makes the difference between chewing up a screw head and driving a screw.) John Meacham in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas, Minimill, HF bandsaw, rusty file ------- NOTE TO FILE: Some enthusiasts whose lathes lack power cross feed have made a small gadget that can be plugged into the business end of a cordless screwdriver and then held up to engage the cross feed's crank handle. The reversible screwdriver provides smooth power feed in both directions. The actual design of such a gadget depends on the configuration/size/shape of the particular lathe's crank handle. ------- Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 00:12:22 -0000 From: "markzemanek" Subject: Re: tool bit angles for aluminum [atlas_craftsman group] I'd like to thank everyone who helped with my problem in getting a good finish on aluminum. I've just completed turning a piece with a much better finish. I rounded the tips of my tools, as suggested, then honed them smooth. It sure has made a difference! I also needed to slow down my spindle speed a bit. The next step will be to apply some lubricant of some sort (either WD-40 or tapping fluid), to see what kind of finishing cut I can achieve.... Cheers, Mark ------- Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:39:51 +0000 From: Clive Foster Subject: Re:tool bit angles for aluminum > So let me get this right....I should be honing the top of the tool > (side rake) AND the front tip of the tool? Also, how big of a radius > on the tool tip are we talking about?...Is 1/32" enough? Mark Theoretically the tip radius should be greater than the feed per rev and the cut depth greater than the tip radius. Seems to be generally accepted that taking greater = about twice is good enuf for government work. However this seems to be biased towards knife tools on hard materials and bigger lathes. I tend not to worry about the cutting depth one and just wind in 'till it all looks about right! I've not got a Taig lathe but my Heavy 10 South-Bend is quite happy at 0.2" tip radius, well honed, on 50 thou roughing and 10 thou finishing cuts on pretty much anything for feeds and speeds worked out using the standard formulae. The big thing, especially on a sticky material like aluminium, is to get the chips flowing off smoothly and continuously whether as a succession of short curls or long ribbon. Honing all the faces ensures that you are cutting with a smooth continuous edge. A little discontinuity in the cutting edge is an open invitation for the material to build up on it especially as the bottom of the discontinuity cannot be as sharp as the rest of the cutting edge. Honing the top also provides a smooth surface for the chip to flow across as it comes off the work considerably reducing friction which has got to help matters. That chip presses down Hard onto the tool as it comes off. Within reason the larger the radius the better the finish but the greater the forces on the lathe. 1/32" sounds a good starting point for a Taig but I wouldn't be adverse to trying something larger with a small depth of cut, 5 thou or less and slow feed but relatively high speed. With a larger radius its easier to get a smooth continuous cutting edge but you will be using the tool more scraping or burnishing than truly cutting. Bottom line is that the books give a starting point but you have to learn to watch the chips to judge how well the cutting is going. Biggest problem is that too fast or too slow, too shallow or too deep, too small or too large radius all give problems and frequently there is more than one wrong combination which will give the same effect. It's a great help having "one who knows" to show you the effects of the various wrong combinations on your size of lathe. Amateurs tend to be too ready to drop down to a tiny cut, tortoise feed and low speed at the first hint of trouble. Sometimes you just have to lean on things to get a result but the little Taig hasn't the physique to lean very hard. Clive ------- Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:27:19 -0800 From: "Scott A. Stephens" Subject: Bronze Aliminum [sherline group] Just to ask does any one have experience with bronze Aluminum. I have a project I would like to use it in and was wonder how easy it was to machine. I was planning on HSS but have inserts if that would be better. Thanks ------- Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:54:26 -0000 From: "Radish" Subject: Re: Bronze Aliminum Inserts are a MUST, this stuff EATS toolsteel. It turns ok if you get your speeds and feeds right, play around with it till it suits your machine. ------- Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:48:56 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Bronze Aliminum Scott, try Stellite Star J. Alloy tool bits with high "red harness". Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:21:51 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Bronze Aliminum It's aluminum-bronze and it's pretty tough stuff. If you have a case- hardened worm running with an al-bronze worm-wheel, that worm will get eaten up in fairly short order. You need carbide tools, sharp edges and negative rake angle on the top; 1 to 3 deg. or so. Start with 1. ------- Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 03:20:25 -0000 From: "p_eagle76" Subject: Re: Bronze Aliminum "Richard L. Wurdack" wrote: > Can anyone comment on Fortal. (See the December Machinist's Workshop Mag Richard, check out this site in reference to Fortal. http://www.mousebar.com/fhome.html It machines extremely well & is super strong. I use it for making suspension parts on my 1/4 scale race car. It holds up very well (especially seeing how the wall keeps coming down & grabbing the right front corner). The guy has a "toll free" number on his web site. Give him a call & he will give you the low-down in a heart beat. Joe ------- Date: Wed, 01 Dec 2004 07:13:24 -0000 From: "Keith Baddock" Subject: Re: is Duraluminium the strongest Aluminium ? [sherline group] > what's the type Number of Duralumium ? > if it's not the strongest aluminum , then what's the strongest one ? > i'm looking for the lightest strongest aluminum for my project, > besides titanium which is too hard to cut. rud What are you building - what's the application? 7075 and 7050 are good - generally the stronger an aluminium, the easier it is to machine. Duralium (which is a trade name) is a 20XX series alloy (can't remember which one) and is not as strong as the 70XX series, but may be more fatigue resistant. I use 7050 offcuts where possible, and this is generally stronger than mild steel, and machines very well. Keith ------- Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:15:13 -0800 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: Keystock [LittleEngines group] "Carl Corbeau" wrote: > Tom, Key stock is mild. I've used it, and welded it, and bent it, and it > works fine. Can't tell you the type #. It sure won't go to waste. Carl Keystock (at least in MY shop) is 1018 cold-rolled. Keith ------- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:04:01 -0800 From: Alan Marconett Subject: Re: aluminium [LittleEngines group] > can anyone explain why a lot of american engine builders use a lot of > aluminium in their steam engines?in britain it is very rarely used. > DAVID WILLIAMS BOLTON ENGLAND Hi David, I don't know about other builders, but I am building on a small Sherline lathe and mill. Aluminum cuts much easier then steel, is not such a mess, and doesn't rust. Call it a "modern" metal? I like brass even better! Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:50:07 -0800 From: corey renner Subject: Re: aluminium I don't like that damn brass dust, AL is my favorite to machine. The fact that WD40 works well as cutting lube is the icing on the cake. Very easy to just give it a squirt as you work. cheers, c ------- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 04:33:31 -0800 From: "James Early" Subject: Re: aluminium David. Two things, first it is almost impossible to find small foundries here [U.S.A.] that will cast anything but aluminum in most of the country. Second, castings in iron or bronze from the UK are just way too expensive. JWE ------- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:38:46 -0800 From: corey renner Subject: Re: aluminium On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, HLahantubbe wrote: > Personally, I am addicted to FORTAL. Once used, the magic of this > particular alloy of aluminum lends itself to all sorts of creativity... Rabid, Fortal is very similar to 7075 AL isn't it? I've worked with 7075 a lot since my local metal supplier sells all AL at the same price regardless of alloy. 7075 is a lot less gummy than 6061 and is my first choice. Is Fortal an improvement over 7075? Have you tried both? cheers, c ------- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:47:58 -0600 From: "HLahantubbe" Subject: Re: aluminium I have used every alloy of AL I can get my hands on, some of them rather exotic. FORTAL turns like mild aluminum, but has the sheer and tensile strength of tool steel. In fact, it turns to a fine finish easier than aluminum. My favorite way to introduce someone to the alloy is to give them a large piece of steel and a disk of FORTAL about 2 in in dia and an inch thick. I have them lay the rough sawn AL on top of the steel and give them a 3lb sledge, telling them to give the AL a good smack with the hammer. When they finally dent it and then pick it up, there's a puzzled look on their faces when they see the impression of the FORTAL in the steel. You can make temporary stamping and forging dies out of this material for testing purposes, it's a lot easier to machine (and cheaper) than tool steel. There is one caveat - on very high tolerance work, you should machine down nearly to final finish and then allow the metal to rest for 24 hours before final fit/finish. It has a tendency to spring back a few ten thousanths over that time. Rabid ------- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:15:55 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Machining aluminum? > Which machines the smoothest on a Sherline lathe? The 2000, 6000, > or 7000 series aluminum? My recommendations. Numbered according to best results. etc.... 1. 2011-T3 2. 2024 3. 6061 4. 7075 Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 15:26:13 -0000 From: "Edbo" Subject: Alloy or Carbon Steel for Tools [sherline group] As a novice I don't have that much experiance with machining different metals. I Mostly machine with Alluminum(6061), some alloy steels(4130) and low carbon(1018)steels If i would have to purchase some steel stock for making a end mill holder or a collet chuck. What type of Steel would I want to use? Basically It would have to be common to purchase, easy to machine with the sherline, able to produce a good finish and not too expensive. Will it be Alloy or Carbon? Cold or Hot rolled? Thanks Ed ------- Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:54:09 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Alloy or Carbon Steel for Tools Ed, I would suggest free machining Stainless Steel...either 303 or 304 or 316. 416 is Ok, but slightly magnetic. That would eliminate the corrosion problem you would encounter with steel. Regards, Jerry G P.S. If you need to heat treat it to make it springy, go with the 416... ------- Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 08:32:03 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Alloy or Carbon Steel for Tools Hi Jerry and Ed: I second the suggestion to go with 303 stainless, but I am less enthusiastic about 304 or 316 on a machine as small as a Sherline. 303 is ideal for anything that has to be made in stainless; it is free machining, doesn't work harden appreciably, will turn very nicely with HSS toolbits and finishes beautifully. It has adequate strength for many common applications and doesn't gall anywhere near as badly as 316. 304 and 316 are a cast iron bitch to drill; they work harden if the feed pressure cannot be kept up, and they pick up like crazy if you try to fit a shaft into a bore for example. They are also murder to saw, hard to tap, and just generally shitty to work with unless you've got fairly hunky machines that can tolerate a good hefty cut. Other good choices for tooling are: -Leadloy...soft like mild steel but WAY easier to machine. Only available in rounds. -4130 or 4140...tough, hard to machine and crappy finish when turning, but very strong. -Alumec 89 mold aluminum or 7075 T6 aircraft aluminum (far better than 6061 T6 for any kind of machining, and stronger than Leadloy or mild steel. -Free machining brass...decent for bushings and assemblies that need to be soldered together -Phosphor bronze...also free machining and excellent bearing or bushing material. -O-1 toolsteel for things that have to be hard...good dimensional stability during heat treat and oil quenchable with excellent strength and hardness. Hardenable with a propane or oxyacetylene torch and a bucket of used motor oil. -Ejector pin cutoffs for any shafts that need strength...obtainable from any moldmaking shop, usually for nothing more than a box of doughnuts for the guys. These are nitrided hotwork steel and are tough, smooth, straight, round, and incredibly wear resistant. For an endmill holder on a Sherline, and made on a Sherline, I'd go with Leadloy. Way cheaper than 303 which would be my next choice. HTH. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:08:52 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Re: Alloy or Carbon Steel for Tools > How much lead is in Leadloy. Should I have much concern with lead > poisoning while using it? What precautions should I take while > machining it? Thanks Ed Ed, Leadloy has .15% to .35%, small amount... Normal precautions...safety goggles... Want to play it safe? Use a face mask, vacuum to remove the chips as you make them.... Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 16:18:25 -0800 From: "Marcus" Subject: Re: Re: Alloy or Carbon Steel for Tools Hi Ed: Yes it is the same as 12L14. Jerry G expressed some reservations about using it because of its lead content. This is a valid concern if the tool will be used in high load applications, but should be no problem at all for Sherline sized loads. Apparently some bonehead somewhere in the past tried using it for a high velocity rifle barrel and hurt himself badly when it blew up in his face. Leadloy has had a bad rap ever since, but if you stay within its limitations, it's a great material for hobbying. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 21:16:20 -0600 From: "Arthur Behrends" Subject: Re: Alloy or Carbon Steel for Tools Follow the link below and see the link to junkyard steel. http://www.homemetalshopclub.org/news/article_index.htm Art ------- Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2005 11:56:14 -0000 From: "biggles7au" Subject: The Damascus steel rolling mill. [Metal_Shapers] Hi Guys, and especially Art for the tips on my Adept clone. I had a look at the rolling mill details and I was surprised to see that Mr McDonald lives within 20 miles of me. I can't get a look at his rolling mill for a few days as I have to return to the minesite where I work. I should be back in about 9 days. I noted the comments on the working pressures for the hydraulic equipment. I don't disagree with any of the points but recent practice in the mining industry and the associated workshops is to run at the higher pressures indicated. When I first started in the industry the average working pressure of mining equipment was about 2500 PSI. It is now nearer to 4000 PSI which reduces the required flowrates through the hoses. Yes the components are very expensive. We even have a contractor on site who does nothing else but produce the special hoses with swaged fittings. The Enerpac rams used in our workshops are running at the pressures discussed. One interesting feature of Damascus steel that is not well known is that the original iron that is used must contain some special trace elements to enable the formation of carbides in the banding. I can't recall the science magazine that I read that described this, but it recommended using Sorrel metal (from Sorrel in North America) as it contained enough Vanadium in the natural ore to facilitate the formation of the iron carbide bands. The article pointed out that they had worked with a blacksmith to research Damascus steel and had been unsuccessful using some modern steels due to the absence of the necessary trace elements. Sorrel metal worked well. When they did an analysis of damascus swords in museums they found the trace elements. It appears that the arab swords used a vanadium rich iron sourced from India. When this was no longer available the manufacture of damascus swords stopped. I only mention this as it would be very frustrating to build a rolling mill and still not get the quality of Damascus steel that you wanted. Cheers Mike from Western Australia ------- Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 03:49:49 -0000 From: "biggles7au" Subject: Damascus steel Hi Guys, I checked the internet and the article I refer to can be purchased from Scientific American online or you can read it in the January 2001 issue of the magazine in your local library. I managed to recall most of the key points. Apparently even 0.003% Vanadium will do the trick. Molybdenum is also an agent for forming the carbides. Cheers Mike ------- Date: Thu, 26 May 2005 21:15:05 -0000 From: "Philip Burman" Subject: All you need to know about Aluminium alloys - probably! [Min_Int_Comb_Eng] I came across this site and thought it may be of use to some members. http://aluminium.matter.org.uk/aluselect/ Regards Phil Burman ------- Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:34:49 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Copper Machining Question [taigtools] I'm going to be machining some copper parts for work. Unfortunately I'm not able to use free machining copper, so it's not going to be as much fun as my last copper project. I'm using C11000 ETP copper for this. I can work out the speeds and feeds ok, but I'm drawing a blank on what to use for a cutting fluid. Any pointers? Thanks, Tom ------- Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:51:19 -0700 From: "Felice Luftschein and Nicholas Carter" Subject: Re: Copper Machining Question Milk. No, really. Whole milk is recommended. (I have also seen condensed milk mentioned) But you should probably call up MSC and ask for a copper specific coolant and get something not quite as messy/stinky when not cleaned up well. Check out our homepage www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------ Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 20:35:08 -0700 (PDT) From: juan gelt Subject: Re: Copper Machining Question I've been using a lump of high stearate wax dissolved in charcoal lighter for aluminum with great results. And the chips dry out dry with a little white dust. Big shiny chips bloom out of the pocket and you can hear each tooth clip out a bite. Might be good on copper too...Works nice on brass... I think it's gonna be hard to hear a tool in copper anyway unless you like run it backwards. ------- Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:39:24 -0000 From: "kwolson2002" Subject: Re: Copper Machining Question In "Advanced Machine Work" by Robert H. Smith, (I've got the Lindsay reprint) it says the following regarding machining copper (pg. 419): "Lubricate with milk, soda water, or soap mixture." Soda water would be non-smelly and tolerably cheap. Kevin ------- Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 02:18:44 -0000 From: "kwolson2002" Subject: Re: Copper Machining Question Actually, I think the "soda water" is water with sal soda dissolved in it. Elsewhere (sorry, I don't have it in front of me at the moment, so no exact quote or reference), he prescribes using water as a lube for grinding with enough sal soda dissolved in it to "leave a deposit" on the machine. The sal soda was used to prevent the water rusting the machine. I'll see if I can find the exact reference, etc. Kevin ------- Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:28:29 +1000 From: Alex Robson Subject: Re: Re: Copper Machining Question About forty years or so working for General Engineering firm. I would have machined countless commutators, whether it would be for a generator, starter motor, electric motor... We used ordinary HSS tool steel, say 5/16" or 3/8" square depending on the size part and the lathe you were using. They were a V type tool, sharpened similarly to your screw-cutting form. A positive rake around 45 degrees stoned after grinding. Using light cuts(.010") or less with a fine feed. Sharpened an old hacksaw blade to clean between the segments; polished off using very fine wet and dry sand-paper. As for machining copper, soluble oil worked well. Alex ------- Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 19:47:29 -0000 From: "kwolson2002" Subject: Re: Copper Machining Question Here it is (again from Smith's "Advanced Machine Work", pg. 713): "33. Lubricants for grinding - Use water, and to prevent rusting of machine, add enough sal soda to the water to show a deposit on machine. Machine oil is sometimes added to mixture. Aluminum is ground with a lubricant of kerosene, or a mixture of kerosene and machine oil." Sal soda is sodium carbonate (not sodium bicarbonate, which is baking soda). Sodium carbonate is also called "washing soda". I have a big box of "Arm and Hammer" brand, which I bought at the grocery store for a couple of dollars. I mostly use it to make electrolyte for electrolytic rust removal of old machines and tools, but your grandmother (or great-grand) would have used it to get her whites white. Most recently, I used it to free up an old Joyce-Cridland toe jack, using a trash can for the bath, and dollar store kitchen stainless tools for the sacrificial electrodes. I haven't noticed whether or how well it prevents rust, as I've been DE-rusting stuff. Maybe an experiment is in order :) Kevin ------- Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 11:06:38 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Machining Copper I've finished the first of the two copper parts today. With some caveats, the part came out better than I expected. I wanted to thank everyone who pitched in with ideas when I asked for help. Here's what I finally wound up doing: The material is almost pure copper, C11000 alloy. The machininability rating is listed as 20 where 360 FC brass is 100. NOT free-machining. I used HSS cutters (what I had on-hand, and nothing I saw or read indicated this was a bad thing.) Most of the modern referenes I looked at suggested using soluble oils. This jived with everything I was told here when I first asked about it. I wound up using Rustlick, again because it's what's on-hand. And a thanks to whoever suggested looking in Hasluck's book. I forgot I had a copy! I did wind up changing from a 1/8 cutter to a 3/16 cutter, which helped in some regards, but was a bad idea in others. Turns out I didn't have one, but the general toolbox in the shop did. Little did I know it was almost completely dull. Little did I know that machining a material with a machinability rating of 20 with dull tools is an exercise in frustration. I wound up snapping off both ends of the tool, which in the long-run is probably a good thing for everyone else in the shop. Thank goodness there was a new one still in the cabinet. MUCH better. The final part had one of the worst surface finishes I've ever had on anything I've made, including CRS. That's when I remembered we had a sandblast cabinet. I never knew you could take out so many surface blemishes so quickly with one of those. I'm in love. I'm about to take off to make the second one of these. This morning the "we need it by the end of the week" turned into "we need it by 5pm today". Gotta love schedules. Even so, I wanted to take the time to thank everyone for their help. Frustrating though this has been, it would've been a lot worse without the input from the folks on this list. Hat's off to you all. Tom ------- NOTE TO FILE: Many discussions regarding electrolytic rust removal are found here in the Rust Removal text file. ------- Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 04:35:25 -0000 From: "john" Subject: name of steel [atlas618lathe] Does any one know he name of the steel that they use on outside hoists , etc. that you don't paint but it develops a real fine rust on it that protects it? ------- Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:52:25 -0000 From: "Hank" Subject: Re: name of steel The first such steel was Cor-Ten, a trademark of US Steel. This and other similar products are known as "weathering steels." Here are just a few links Google found: Cor-Ten FAQ http://www.centralsteelservice.com/faqs.shtml Precautions for Cor-Ten use http://www.aisc.org/MSCTemplate.cfm?Section=Steel_Interchange2&Temp late=/CustomSource/Faq/SteelInterchange.cfm&FaqID=2311 shorter link to AISC if above long url doesn't work http://www.aisc.org USS trademarks http://www.ussteel.com/corp/trademarks.htm Hank ------- Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2005 14:59:54 -0000 From: "Hank" Subject: AISC has a lot of good information That AISC site has a lot of good reading. It's mainly for engineers and architects designing large structures, but I've quickly found several interesting tidbits such as advice about welding galvanized metal. You can also read some nice articles from their trade mag, Modern Steel Construction. Hank [Hank later:] Current issue of MSC magazine in pdf form always at: http://www.aisc.org/MSCTemplate.cfm The AISC website is loaded with information, some of it in pdf form, some as questions and answers. That's the good news; the bad news is that this site is *brutal* to navigate and find information on! Really difficult. ------- Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:52:58 -0700 From: Chris Ghent [taigtools] Subject: Titanium >From: Steve Blackmore >You really need a rigid machine, indexable carbide tooling, flood >coolant and plenty of feed to do titanium well. I make ring blanks for >my wife's jewellery hobby, anything less than a 20 thou cut and it's a >"forget it" without taking another 50 thou off to get past the bit >you've just hardened! >It work hardens like crazy unless you take big bites, also the chips can >spontaneously combust unless kept cool. It burns like magnesium, I've >done it with swarf. Took it in pliers, lit it with a cigarette lighter, >It doesn't go out when you drop it in water!! Don't flood cool and it >can do that on it's own. Not what you want on the bed of your >lathe/mill. >If you can work stainless steel, you're maybe half way to working Ti. >Personally, I wouldn't attempt it with Taig, not impossible, but >expensive to learn with... My overall experience is minimal, but I learnt to use a lathe turning titanium, and for a long time that was all I was turning. Because I had no experience I assumed titanium was representative of all turning experiences. I have since used brass a lot and some silver steel, mild steel, nickel bronze and Delrin. You can imagine the grin on my face when I discovered the ease of free machining brass. What I have found is the softer grade of titanium (I am using grade 2 from McMaster-Carr) is machinable without too many problems. Tools need to be in good order, that is, sharp. I try to take larger cuts to finished size for all the reasons Steve mentioned, but have often managed to take relatively fine cuts when the tool is good. I have never had it spontaneously combust, though I have lit the swarf with a lighter. When alight it does not have the same tenacity as magnesium. I only use a lubricant when I am plunge cutting (nothing too heavy). I have never had any trouble in parting. The person who was my early mentor said, "titanium is a material just like any other, but unlike brass, for example, you will not get away with sloppy practice. Look up the charts and note the recommendations and you will be fine." I have a classic 7 x 12 Chinese lathe, so a bit more rigid than a Taig and this may be one reason I have found it easier. I am aware the drift of these remarks goes against the general theme of Steve's post on the subject and I am painfully aware he knows infinitely more than I do. Chris ------- Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 05:27:28 -0000 From: "elmer miller" Subject: SCRAP, Pratice metal Hey gang; I need to be able to get mail order scrap metal to practis on, no minum order. Any one know os such a place? TIA ELMER ------- Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 09:52:56 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: SCRAP, Pratice metal Maybe you know someone who works in a machine shop, or have a friend or relative who does? My brother is once such person. He's not a metalworking enthusiast but has contacts with several machine shops in his area. A couple of years ago he asked his contacts to set aside scrap for me, and they agreed to do so. To my surprise, on his next visit he brought me maybe 250 lbs or even more of small pieces - throw aways to the machine shops but absolutely priceless to me. It was mostly 6061, but there were a few pieces of 303 stainless, cast tooling plate, etc. I'll be working with that stuff for years. All it cost was a few boxes of donuts. Anyway, it's an idea and might work for you. Regards, Jim ------- Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 16:19:02 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: SCRAP, Pratice metal Elmer: Having Taught many Micro Machining Seminars has taught me that purchasing scrap metal of an unknown type is the worst possible thing a beginner can do. As an example if you ended up with some farm machinery steel from a junk yard, you would do little more than destroy your tools and convince yourself you will never be able to machine steel. The assumption of a beginner can easily be that this how all metal machines. I would suggest going to a Metal supply outlet in your area and purchasing some 12L14 steel along with the easiest to machine aluminum that they have to start with. They will be able to advise if you explain your situation and you can always ask about cutoff`s. In the long run you will find that the few extra dollars spent will be well worth it. The time to buy scrap metal is when you have gained experience to determine what is machinable and what is not. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2005 15:46:06 -0500 From: Ken Jenkins Subject: Re: Practice metal I have to agree [with Jerry] for the reasons given. If you are just starting out, stick with free machining aluminum. Cheap, and easy to come by, yet, unlike using wood or plastic you'll get the idea of what is involved in machining "metal", doing set-ups, clamping, measuring, how to "finish" a part, etc. The idea is you are learning about the process --- the material itself shouldn't get in the way of the learning. With just about any kind of steel, tool wear is a real issue and you should be using some type of cooling/lubricating system. Having said that, if you can be assured that the shop you are getting scraps from DOES know, and can tell you what it's giving you, then it is an excellent place to get material. The reason is, these machine shops simply sell their off cuts by the lb to a scrap dealer. Which isn't a huge amount of money for them. So what is a real "treasure" for you is no biggie for them. Also donuts are a universally recognized form of bribery in shops :-) Ken J. ------- Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 08:24:59 +0000 From: Steve Blackmore Subject: Re: Re: Practice metal > Also donuts are a universally recognized form of bribery in shops :-) Not in the UK - quickest way to get thrown out. A few quid in the "tea" money box or better still just money. Steve Blackmore ------- Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:47:11 -1000 (HST) From: benedict-listx~xxhawaii.rr.com Subject: Re: SCRAP, Pratice metal > Befor you wonder why....I CAN'T get around on my own like I WOULD > NEED TO Here are a couple of places I've ordered from with good results: Enco - Not really scrap, but prices aren't bad: http://www.use-enco.com Online Metals - Scrap, but you know what you're getting: http://www.onlinemetals.com Ebay - Take your chances and hope for the best: http://www.ebay.com Local yards - Requires getting around on your own like you would need to, unfortunately. Some comments on the suggestions already thrown out there: Knowing what you're getting - This is paramount. What Jerry said about getting "the mystery metal" and getting discouraged is 100% true. You can wind up with unknown materials, unknown hardness, unknown all sorts of nasties. In such a situation it's easy as pie to conclude that it's the machinist and not the material that's making life hell. 12L14 is a wonderful steel. 6061-T6 is a wonderful aluminum. Half-hard brass is a wonderful brass. O1 steel is also nice, but it's tougher than 12L14, and isn't needed as often (unless you're making cutters or other parts that need to be hardened.) Delrin is a wonderful plastic. So's PVC, but I like Delrin more (albeit at a much higher price.) Making friends with people who use metal - This is super useful. R&D shops tend to save their scraps, but production shops get rid of bar-ends. It's not in their interest to store them. Local metal suppliers also sell bar-ends, and will know the alloy. If you find an R&D shop who's cleaning house, you can make out like a bandit. Also consider talking to other home shop machinists in your area. If someone's making a run to the metal yard, they may be able to pick something up for you. (Donuts and tea work on home shop machinists, too!) I buy locally whenever I can, simply to save on shipping (I live on an island). But sometimes it's unavoidable (no local metal yards where I live now). On the idea of scrap - If you're just starting out, going to a metal yard is a great idea, just to see what's available. I wound up getting one of just about any size that had a cutoff that'd fit in the back of my car. My first bill was about $80, but I wound up with a whole variety of stuff to play with. Some of it I went through quickly, some I'm still carting around. But it'll give you an idea of what sizes you need more of. Once you're to that point, ordering those in some bulk isn't a bad idea. Here's where places like Enco come in. Hardware stores - These are almost always a mixed bag. For plastics like PVC and ABS, they're cheap places to shop. Most of the aluminum they sell is pure aluminum. This is NASTY to cut. There's a reason why most machined aluminum parts use an alloy rather than straight aluminum. Most of the alloys are much nicer to work with. The steel rounds and flat bars in most hardware stores are either cold rolled steel or hot rolled steel (often refered to as CRS and HRS respectively). This stuff is typically stringy and tough, and HRS has a gray scale on the outside that eats cutters for lunch. Nonetheless it's an inexpensive steel that's readily available and welds well. I reach for 12L14 whenever possible, but 12L14 doesn't weld all that well. I don't do any welding (YET!) so this isn't a problem for me. If you don't mind my asking, what's going on that makes it so you can't get around on your own? There may still be ways to get the materials you need locally. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:49:57 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: SCRAP, Pratice metal Tom: A couple of additional comments on 12L14 steel. You are correct as usual that 12L14 is hard to weld however it can be easily Silver Solder making very strong joints. (1300 degree) Also One Time Limited use cutters can easily be machined from 12L14 and the Case Hardened for use. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:23:46 -0000 From: "in2steam" Subject: Re: SCRAP, Pratice metal My personal favorite all though not always the cheapest is metalsexpress http://www.metalexpress.net/ they ship UPS and will do small orders (be warned that is more expenssive to get something cut down then to do it yourself) and have a good range of materials. It's handy if you don't have a band saw that can cut down 18" pieces, most of the time they give you a little extra. They do have deals on package items such as several sizes of steel tube etc. Another place to get chunks of aluminum (soft cast not pure) is at a an automotive dealership. I used to work at one for many years and they throw away tons of metals. I used to take old valve bodies from transmissions to welding class and tig them together; it's great practice since it's not new clean metal, but oily used metal. If one has the time and the ablity you can get larger pieces of alum, which they generally don't know what to do with or don't even care about. Talk to the warranty return person (most likely in parts dept) they would be the one to help most. Dealerships are required to hold onto warranty parts which are replaced, more often than not they are told to dump the parts instead of returning them. chris ------- Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 23:48:58 -0000 From: "George Haddad" Subject: Using Fortal (? 7075 aluminum) for non-ringed IC eng ine pistons? [Min_Int_Comb_Eng] Back in 1950, Roy L. Clough suggested using hard aluminum as a piston material for his 060 c.i. IC engine, the "Little Dragon." He reported that some commercial manufacturers of model airplane engines had done the same. And, he noted that that while not as good as cast iron, the pistons could last a long time. (He didn't indicate how long.) I saw noted somewhere that 7075 aluminum is stronger than 12L14 steel. If this is the case, does it make sense to try it for a piston material? Has anyone ever tried a non-ringed alumninum piston? I just machined a cast iron piston on my Taig. The Taig is a fantastic machine, but cast iron really tests its limits. Also, I didn't like all the cast iron dust and mess. I don't think it's a good idea to breathe that stuff for too long. So, was Roy on to something back then? Thanks, George ------- Date: Sun, 1 Jan 2006 16:07:36 -0800 From: corey renner Subject: Re: Using Fortal (? 7075 aluminum) for non-ringed IC eng ine pistons? 7075 is very strong, but its strength degrades quickly with temperature. Pistons are usually made of other AL alloys. cheers, c ------- Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 01:27:36 -0000 From: "BillB" Subject: Re: Using Fortal (? 7075 aluminum) for non-ringed IC eng ine pistons? Hi George, I'm told the best aluminum alloy to use is that salvaged from a large diesel truck engine piston. I personally have not had the problem and access to a BIG used piston at the same time. As I have never cut one up, I don't know how big a chunk can be salvaged. This material has a very high silicon content, and the coefficent of expansion is less than other aluminium alloys. (But still greater than CI or steel which you probably have for a liner.) I would not try a ringless aluminium piston. Likewise I would not use a straight aluminium bore. I guess there are treatments which give a reasonable bore in aluminium, but none that I have heard in the hobby price range. Regards BillB ------- Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 03:42:36 -0000 From: "William" Subject: Re: Using Fortal (? 7075 aluminum) for non-ringed IC eng ine pistons? A ringless CI piston in a CI bore will work nicely because of their similar thermal expansion. The same bore with an aluminum piston would seize and gall since the piston would thermally expand beyond the close fit required of a ringless design. An aluminum bore with an aluminum piston would seize very quickly under any circumstances without either the silicon 'etch', nikisil, or iron plating the piston. Some of the chrome plated bronze bored engines have ringless aluminum pistons but are intended for two cycle use in which the piston is swimming in high temperature lubricant - early ones used castor oil. 7075 alloy would work fine, but with rings, and you would need to allow approxomately .0005 per inch of bore undersize clearance on the piston to allow for thermal expansion. Most casting kits of modern design IC engines include an aluminum cast piston of the same alloy through-out the kit, usually 356. Try using a vacuum cleaner nozzle under and behind the piston being machined... Yes, CI is definitely a mess to machine and will cause problems with the sliding ways of a lathe. Bill C ------- Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 17:24:36 -0700 From: "Marilyn Smith" Subject: Machining Cast Iron (was Using Fortal (? 7075 aluminum) ) George wrote: "I just machined a cast iron piston on my Taig. The Taig is a fantastic machine, but cast iron really tests its limits. Also, I didn't like all the cast iron dust and mess." I assume you meant grey cast iron. Grey cast iron makes up about only 1% of the materials that I machine, so I am puzzled by what limits your Taig is experiencing when machining cast iron. I understand about the dust and mess, but I have always found grey cast iron to be one of the least problematic materials to machine. No chip control problems, no work hardening, no coolant needed. It is abrasive but I'm only making small parts. (I know that there are other cast irons and cast steels that are quite tough to machine.) Are you experiencing problems that I might encounter on a future job? What has been your experience? I use a 12" Birmingham (Taiwanese) lathe, predominately with carbide inserts. Bob ------- Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 12:26:58 EST From: RG003029x~xxAOL.COM Subject: Re: Machining Cast Iron (was Using Fortal (? 7075 aluminum... Use a big magnet to collect the iron machining dust...worked for me. Randy ------- Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 10:57:34 -0800 From: "Carl Carlsen" Subject: RE: Machining Cast Iron (was Using Fortal (? 7075 aluminum) ) >>George wrote: "I just machined a cast iron piston on my Taig. > I am puzzled by what limits your Taig is experiencing when > machining cast iron. George, I agree with Bob on this. If it were not for the dust and swarf, I think CI is my favorite ferrous metal to machine. I like Randy's idea of the big magnet. I'm gonna try that. Yes, you need to touch up your cutting tool frequently, even Carbide, but if CI is making your Taig 'sweat', then I'd look closely at your setup. Position of cutting tool (too high - too low?), sharpness of cutting tool etc. Unless you are working with "unknown" Cast Iron. Old window sash weights for example, are frequently 'hard' and machining can be more difficult. Carl ------- Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 22:44:09 +0000 (GMT) From: David Everett Subject: Re: Machining Cast Iron (was Using Fortal (? 7075 aluminum... But first put the magnet in a plastic bag. Otherwise you will have great fun trying to get the swarf off the magnet! Regards Dave in Ireland ------- Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 21:36:29 -0000 From: "William" Subject: Re: Machining Cast Iron (was Using Fortal (? 7075 aluminum) ) Cast iron is very, very abrasive to lathe tools, especially boring tools. Take a look at some carbide tooling for use with cast iron, cast steel and similar ferrous metals. Carbide will withstand the hard inclusions in iron castings and will leave a good finish as well. Cast aluminum is also rough on high speed steel tools. Be sure to get the proper grade of carbide... 'C-2' for iron, aluminum and non-metalic; 'C-5' and above for tough and semi hardened steels and stainless steels. The use of carbide normally requires more power to cut than high speed tooling but the type of insert will relieve some of that. Avoid holders with negative rake unless you have HP to spare. The type of inserts with the chip breaker relief tend to be easier on a smaller lathe too, gives a positive rake during cutting action. The major problem with using high speed with cast iron is that the tool becomes hot enough to anneal the tip. Trying to continue to sharpen and reuse the same tool only causes the user to fault the lathe or the tool or even the iron! Bill Clemens ------- Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 00:09:16 +0200 From: "Frank Hasieber" Subject: RE: Re: Machining Cast Iron (was Using Fortal (? 7075 aluminum) ) Bill, I still remember a film that was shown to us when I was studying engineering back about 1960, a high speed tool bit was taking a cut 3/8" deep at a feed of ¼" per rev in steel, that's stripping a 3/8 x ¼ inch bar from the billet, the tool was glowing red hot without loss of temper, if you experience loss of temper while turning with HSS, the tool bit has to be suspect as far as quality is concerned! You would certainly have to get a quality HSS steel into the red hot range at least to alter the temper, I have made many special tools by silver soldering HSS bits to mild steel shanks. Frank ------- Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 20:49:55 -0000 From: "William" Subject: Re: Machining Cast Iron (was Using Fortal (? 7075 aluminum) ) Also, to add: Turning cast iron with high speed tooling is successful with slow cutting speeds. A HS tool cutting edge will degrade very quickly with too much speed, patience is the key with HS and a small lathe, most especially during roughing cuts on cast iron. Machinery's Handbook is the greatest source for speeds and feeds information. Thanks, Bill Clemens ------- Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:58:16 -0800 From: Jerry Kimberlin Subject: Re: Re: Machining Cast Iron (was Using Fortal (? 7075 aluminum) ) Also, don't forget that on the first cut you have to get under the skin or your tool will go away very fast. That skin can be pretty thick on some castings, as much as 0.020" plus or minus. After that cast iron goes easily with HSS toolbits. JerryK ------- Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:23:31 +1000 From: "Ron Chernich" Subject: What is a heavy cut? [was Machining Cast Iron (was Using Fortal (? 7075 aluminum) ] While we do sometimes go off with fairies in these threads, I don't think this was one of those occasions. Most of us are self taught, and probably subject to incorrect assumptions, misapprehensions, old wives tales and plain old BS. So (with my cynical BS filter active) I truly welcome someone who HAS had formal training and can tell me that it IS possible for HSS to glow red and maintain its edge. I have pushed the old Myford to producing blue chips off HSS (as close as I'll get to a red tool ;-), but only after I'd read that it was possible and not a bad thing. Have also produced blue chips from a carbide flycutter in the mill--and I'm still trying to clean up all the vicious, sharp, tiny blue steel chips that have found their way to every corner of the shop. That won't be an exercise I repeat! rc ------- Date: Sat, 7 Jan 2006 11:34:35 -0800 (PST) From: ED MAISEY Subject: RE: Re: What is a heavy cut? I have had success sometimes with eliminating long stringy matl coming off and wrapping around the part, that by roughing a small groove on the toolbit (top rake) with the corner of the grinding wheel (top rake) more like a V shape, and found that as the chip made contact with the bottom of the V (top rake) -- that it broke the chip and eliminated the long stringy chip. I have also got a air grinder with a small round grinding stone, and carefully put a beautiful small radius for the top rake so that when machining the chip has curled around in a complete circle and when the end of the chip made contact with the part being machined -- it has broken and so the chips fell away. Both these operations have been on the lathe, with HSS of course. Edmund ------- Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:21:01 EST To: ffmlx~xxsmartgroups.com From: Stukadavex~xxcs.com Subject: Re: [ffml] RE: Building Boards << Aluminium is Proper English. Aluminum is American. Aluminium is correct! >> Maybe so, but you can't get a good chili-cheese dog on your side of the pond. This may be why my ancestors left... Dave with a break for lunch...ChChDogs of course ------- Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 19:01:05 -0000 To: From: "Graham Knight" Subject: Re: [ffml] RE: Building Boards >Maybe so, but you can't get a good chili-cheese dog on your side of the >pond. This may be why my ancestors left...> And probably why mine stayed here! Graham in Shepperton, England ------- Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 14:02:14 -0000 To: From: "Graham Knight" Subject: Aluminium/Aluminum Wikipedia has this to say on the spelling... Interesting that America initially adopted the English spelling then changed it, rather like "aeroplane" which they used until the 1920s (?) then changed to "airplane". Graham in Shepperton, England ------- From: "William Cox" wtcoxx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu May 11, 2006 0:49pm(PDT) Subject: Re: New guy in need of material source [LittleEngines] cl350rr wrote: > Hello, > I am new to the group but have been home machining for many years. I > recently purchased a lot of sherline tools and incomplete engine kits. > I am trying to finish a Trojan casting kit which the former owner built > about half way. he was making some of the fasteners out of brass hex > stock that measures 0.150 across the flats. I need to make a few more > bolts and do not have any stock this size. I have searched all of the > usual metal sources on the web with negative results. I was wondering > if anyone could point me to a source for this stuff. Thank you Randy Don't know whether this helps, but ASAPsource.com has brass hex "miniature shapes" in 5/32, which is 0.15625. Your size is 3.81mm, which doesn't sound like a metric standard size. bill cox ------- From: "Carl Carlsen" kd7bfnx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu May 11, 2006 11:22am(PDT) Subject: Re: New guy in need of material source >although the bolt heads are not true to scale >for model engines, For the past 2 or 3 years, I've used American Model supply as my bolt and materials source. Their bolts ARE true to scale. American Model Engineering Supply Inc. 890 Valastics Ave. Valparaiso, FL 32580 (850) 729-8549 FAX (850) 729-8579 E-mail amesx~xxbsc.net no web site Carl ------- From: "cl350rr" cl350rrx~xxhotmail.com Date: Thu May 11, 2006 4:32pm(PDT) Subject: Re: New guy in need of material source Thank you for all of the responses. ASAP had all the sizes I've been looking for, placed an order this evening. Randy ------- From: "joegourlay" jgourlayx~xxmindspring.com Date: Sun May 14, 2006 5:30pm(PDT) Subject: Best online source for metal? [atlas_craftsman] Whose the best online source for things like O1, 4140, W-1, etc? I seem to find two types of sites: damned expensive, or "expensive AND #*"! you on shipping". I was looking at McMaster, and I can't believe they want $17 PLUS shipping, for an 18" piece of 1.25"x.125" of O1. I looked at "online metals" but they didn't carry O-1 or W-1. ------- From: "Bill Hardin" william.hardinx~xxverizon.net Date: Mon May 15, 2006 7:07am(PDT) Subject: Re: Best online source for metal? Try onlinemetals.com If you go there by clicking the logo on my home page, an extra 5% discount. They do have 0-1 and W-1. Just do a product search for Steel and W-1 or O-1 Bill Hardin http://www.homeshopsupply.com Craftsman 109 Lathe Support, Parts, Tooling & Upgrades ------- From: "LouD31M066x~xxaol.com" LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Date: Sun May 14, 2006 5:42pm(PDT) Subject: Re: Best online source for metal? If you really need the "good stuff", shopping around may get you a better price, but, it still won't be cheap ...can't run a business for long at a loss. If your needs can be met by recycled metal, see your local recycler (aka junk yard) probably will give you a better deal. If like me you are really cheap keep an eye open as you go out and about...we live in a nation wealthy enough to throw out really useful stuff...if you can see the elephant in a block of stone. Louis ------- From: "mertbaker" MertBakerx~xxprodigy.net Date: Mon May 15, 2006 5:52am(PDT) Subject: Re: Best online source for metal? If you wanted 300# of 01 tool steel, and were willing to take it in 20' lengths, the price would be a LOT less. I have found that when I want 2' of some HR steel, buying the whole standard length is little more than buying the 2' I actualy need, & they will cut it to fit in my car trunk free. So I now have a sort of stock pile. Mert ------- Date: May 20, 2006 Subject: Machining Copper Hello Steve: I have been reading your machining pages (all of them) and have found it to be a tremendous resourse. I am new to metalworking and have a Craftsman 101.21400 with a milling attachment. I got this unit to help in my other hobby which is facetting gemstones. In this hobby I use 6"dia laps made of copper, tin, and a new alloy BATT. These laps require occasional refacing in order to true them. Machine shops in my area do not want to do them and only one will do them at a cost of $150 each. I understand that copper is difficult to machine (especially when the surface is impregnated with diamond powder) but I think that is just saying they don't want to do them. So I bought my own lathe. What I want to pass on to you is some information that a fellow facetor gave to me is in regards to turning copper. I am attaching his file that he sent. You might want to try it and include it in your pages, giving credit to Mr. Rolfe. He is also the inventor of the BATT alloy. You can also check out his website at www.gearloose.com John Wagstaff, SE Ontario ------- NOTE TO FILE: I received the ABOVE message from John Wagstaff and visited the www.gearloose.com site, which does indeed have some very knowledgeable information on the properties of various alloys that may be of interest to all metalworkers, not just jewellers or hobbyists facetting stones. Visit the http://www.gearloose.com/CU.html page directly to view the page on Machining Copper, which includes pictures that clearly illustrate the correct grind profile for a high speed cutter that simplifies what would normally be a frustrating task with sticky copper. Thank you, Mr. Rolfe, for the idea and thank you, John, for the lead. ------- Re: High quality cast iron for piston rings [sherline] Posted by: "Collins, Graham" collingx~xxnavcanada.ca Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:43 am ((PST)) >>Does anyone know of a good source like Oneline Metals (or even better in the Vancouver area) where I can get fine grained, good quality cast iron round bar about 1 inch OD by about 6 inches long suitable for making piston rings. My Upshur twin is coming along nicely and will be needing rings in the next few weeks. I have thrashed about the web without success. Online Metals does not carry it. << Meehanite is a type of cast iron often used for pistons and such in small engines. Details here: http://www.meehanite.com/ or http://www.meehanitemetal.com/ They several sources in Canada, 3 in Quebec and 1 in Ontario as well as many other sources worldwide. In Canada you can try these: http://www.belgen.net/ (Quebec) http://www.thetfordfoundry.com/cast-iron/profilCorporatif_ang.cfm (Quebec) http://www.castechinc.com/ (Quebec) http://www.amccoy.com/ (Ontario - I would try this place first) That should get you started. Let us know how you make out sourcing this stuff. I haven't had the need yet but in the spring I may have a need to. Cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada. ------- Re: High quality cast iron for piston rings Posted by: "Mati Raudsepp" a7a04912x~xxtelus.net Date: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:30 pm ((PST)) Outstanding information - thanks very much. I can't believe I missed it at Small Parts as I visit that site often. They have the following CAST IRON, ROUND - Class 40, Grey ASTM-A48 and not expensive. I need to order some stuff from there anyway and likely will get a piece of the cast iron to try out. I'll also check out the other sites, especially the Canadian ones. Thanks again! P.S. for Dave Hylands - I'm in Vancouver, BC ------- Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 00:40:46 -0800 [Oldtools group] From: jwpopp Subject: Re: [OldTools] A2 steel and Fine woodworking At 10:24 PM 1/26/2007, Jay wrote: > Had a few extra min today while in town so I stopped at the local library. Located a book produced by Fine Woodworking about hand planes. Found it kind of ironic that they were making planes mostly with tailed apprentices? But the thing that really floored me was a statement about A2 steel. One of the articles stated that the edge will last 6-8 times longer? Is this guy smoking crack? While I don't have experience with A2, and do realize it is better in some ways than other alloys, I find it hard to believe that it is that much more superior. < I can't speak knowledgeably to a specific multiple, but the steel is indeed much harder due to its inclusion of crystalline carbide. However, its grain structure is coarser than O1 so it can't be made as sharp, and it's difficult to hone. With O1 getting into the range of Rc 62 hardness, I prefer it as being able to take a finer edge; relatively quite hard; and faster to hone to perfection. O1 is light years better than the original steels for plane irons, and is such as improvement that I'm pretty happy with it - stays sharp noticeably longer. I don't do a lot of production "bull work" with planes, and thus prefer the absolute sharpest edge possible for minimal force and maximal control. If you're finicky about "feel", then O1 may be preferable for you - I personally can detect a small degree of edge deterioration, and usually find myself getting frustrated with the time it takes to restore A2. ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is a very interesting discussion about different steels and their methods of hardening in the Heat Treating file here, starting in January 2007. ------- Brass screws [sherline] Posted by: "rondavies2001" sherlinex~xxrondavies.ca Date: Wed May 9, 2007 8:53 am ((PDT)) Hi: I am about to start making my first clock using a Sherline mill. Where, in Canada, can I purchase small brass screws. Probably about 1/8 diameter or smaller? Where,in Canada, can I purchase engraving brass in small quantities? Thanks Ron Davies ------- Re: Brass screws Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed May 9, 2007 3:56 pm ((PDT)) Ron: I am not sure about Canada but Brass screws and Brass sheet can be purchased from any of the US tool supply and clock supply houses. I know at least most will ship to Canada if you are unable to find local sources. Personally I feel it would be a shame to go through all of the work of making a Clock works and then use Commercial screws. Of course inexpensive commercial fasteners are the only way to go when appearance is not an issue. However items such as a clock works are judged by their fine detail. One of the first things that stands out will be the screw heads. Custom thin slotted highly polished screw heads will give a high Quality appearance you can be very proud of. Especially since they are so easy to make and there are only a few of them. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Brass screws Posted by: "David Robertson" davidr415x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed May 9, 2007 4:07 pm ((PDT)) In addition.. polished, blued steel screws are traditional for clocks.. not brass. David ------- Re: Brass screws Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed May 9, 2007 11:04 pm ((PDT)) > Where, in Canada, can I purchase small brass screws. Probably about > 1/8 diameter or smaller? Hi Ron, SpaeNaur has a huge catalog several inches thick of screws & bolts, etc. They do have a minimum order and they're more setup for doing voice calls than internet orders. http://www.spaenaur.com/ You can request a catalog online, but when I got mine a few years back it didn't include any prices. I was able to get a floppy with prices mailed out to me when I called. > Where,in Canada, can I purchase engraving brass in small quantities? I'm not exactly sure what engraving brass is, but I'd try at Metal Supermarket. Not the cheapest place around, but they sell stuff by the inch. Since this is for a clock, you may also want to ask on a clock list, like this one: Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- cutting tool for 316 stainless [MyMyford] Posted by: "stevepudney" stevepudneyx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Nov 11, 2007 7:52 am ((PST)) Have just started making these small components from 316 stainless counter sunk M12 bolts. Part of the job involves machining the back off the head (the counter sunk part) of the bolt but.........I am really struggling. The cutting tools I am using are just self ground HSS but they lose their edge almost immediately. I have read somewhere that you need a tool made from GC 2025 material or something like that. What cutting tool do you guys recommend I use for the job in hand? Steve ------- Re: cutting tool for 316 stainless Posted by: "durnfjm" durnfjmx~xxaol.com Date: Sun Nov 11, 2007 1:58 pm ((PST)) 316 work hardens horribly. Take bold cuts on fast speeds and feeds. Good cutting oil is essential. Lots of practice before that important job! Mike D. ------- Re: cutting tool for 316 stainless Posted by: "tr0up" tr0upx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:07 am ((PST)) I agree with everything Steve said. Ordinary HSS is adequate even to machining the heads of SS bolts, in my experience. It's actually something I do a lot of, being as much of my output goes into marine environments. The heads of bolts are already significantly work hardened by the operation of forging them into shape, although it's done hot, not cold, so it's not as bad in terms of producing intractable hardness as the effect of even the most momentary 'dwell' when you're machining it. When machining such materials as stainless manually, one of the key essentials is to develop the reflex of ALWAYS either applying or retracting feed. There should not be the slightest pause between the former and latter phase; the tool must never rub, even for one revolution (at least in principle - that's the mindset you have to cultivate) Obviously you have to practice manipulating the feed handlevers in such a way that there is no 'dwell' when you change hand position in order to make several complete revolutions. It can make it a bit tricky plunging, say, an O-ring groove to the right depth, as you have to do one or more preliminary "swoops", noting the index reading corresponding to the momentary point of closest approach in order to then correlate that with the diameter as measured by (say) vernier calipers. Then, having worked out the reading which corresponds to the target size, you once again have to 'swoop' in to that value. It puts me in mind of a great albatross, boldly decisive and yet circumspect, snatching a fish from just beneath the surface of the Southern Ocean during one of the rare calms, because he knows that if he puts down on the water he will be unable to take off again until the arrival of a wind or swell or preferably both ..... Provided your tool has suitable front and side clearance of at least 5 deg but not too much more, the functional faces of the tool are clean planes not faceted; the edge between front and side faces is tidily stoned to a radius of up to 0.5mm, and (this is important) you can easily get a shaving off the smooth top of a fingernail by lightly scraping it with the part of the edge which does the cutting -- the junction of the aforemen- tioned radius and the top face of the tool -- you should be in the money. The top and side rake are not critical - you really don't want too much of either for dealing with the head of a SS bolt. The raised lettering can be a bit hard on the tooltip. All the usual strictures apply in spades: minimal tool overhang, well clamped so it doesn't swivel under the toolpost clamp (once again, causing "dwell"); good support for the workpiece -- preferably from tailstock as well as headstock. If this is problematic, consider making up a 'lazy chuck' which is a drill chuck or tiny lathe chuck, spinning freely on a stub axle mounted in the tailstock, which can grip the work and provide essential support in cases where a center hole cannot be countenanced. The reason, once again, is that if the work can deflect away from the cutting tool, you are effectively burnishing it rather than cutting it, and all bets are immediately off. You'll get better life from a HSS toolbit containing Cobalt, but the common garden variety is perfectly satisfactory and will turn literally dozens of M12 bolt heads between regrinds when you get everything working for you, and you'll wonder what the difficulty was. Something in the way you asked the question jolted me back to a time when I was beset by just the same problems, and thought the job impossible. ------- Re: Timken Bearings and paint removal. [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Tue Jan 1, 2008 11:48 am ((PST)) On Tuesday 01 January 2008 11:26:17 jtiggr wrote: > My next task is to find sources of scrap steel at cheep prices. Spending a lot of time on randomly selected junkyard steel will be really frustrating - a tool and speed that works for 1026 will fail with 4130, 4130 annealed cuts really differently than 4130 PH, etc. Trying to get a decent finish on A36 can be difficult, what works on one piece will fail on another. Do yourself a favor and order in one of the "variety packs" of 12L14 steel, there are a number of online vendors who sell a mix of round, hex and square stock. 12L14 is a very easy working steel, cuts nicely and can take a very fine finish. Only real fault is that it will rust fairly easily. ------- Re: Atlas 7B Metal Shaper [Metal_Shapers] Posted by: "speedphoto300" speedphoto300x~xxyahoo.com speedphoto300 Date: Sat Jan 5, 2008 12:23 pm ((PST)) >>Hi every one; New Guy here. 1924 model retired farmer restoring an Atlas 7B Shaper. It's missing all of the cross feed assembly and the origonal vise. Any one making a reproduction vise?Have made the S7-22D gear case & machined a stock gear for the larger part of the S7-81 Gear. Any one have dimensions for the gear that the ratchet pawl works on? Since I'm missing the ratchet case & all its parts I'm thinking of trying to use a plunger type mechanism as some of the earlier models appeared to use that type. Anyone own one with that system? Cross feed screw needed to be replaced so turned one from cold rolled. Drill rod would probably have been a better choice but since this was my first attempt to cut L H Acme threads I preferred to try something more easily available. Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks in advance. John Rogers << I've made two cross feed screws for 7B's and my advice would be to use 1144 Stressproof. Drill rod was my first choice and it worked fine, except that it's tough and tears easily when threading. You can get a good thread, but it's a lot of effort. My thinking was that it would last longer than the original. After using 1144 to make a spindle for another job I decided to remake the 7B screw from 1144, and what a difference! It machines easily and has a high enough carbon content to wear better than the original. The stress proofing treatment prevents it from warping, another problem with drill rod. For me it's 1144 for feed screws from now on. Joe ------- Milling 5052 Aluminum... [taigtools] Posted by: "mbonfire2002" mbonfirex~xxhotmail.com Date: Wed Jan 9, 2008 3:43 pm ((PST)) Need to mill some 5052 aluminum. Do not know its temper (it is from sheet stock 0.125" thick. I assume typically used for bend forming). I have done a bunch of 6061 but never 5052 and understand 5052 has "fair machinability". I am not too fussy about finish but want to avoid gummed up cutters and chip welding. I have my taig set up with flood coolant (Koolmist/water) based. I have read that the preferred coolant is oil based. Can I get by with the Koolmist/water coolant? I would like to use carbide cutters...HSS better? Any general hints appreciated. TIA, Steve ------- Re: Milling 5052 Aluminum... Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:16 am ((PST)) Hi Steve, I have worked with 5052. It is fairly soft and basically used it to make machine guards. A lot of shearing in power squaring shears, and bending in press brakes. I have also used Koolmist. My suggestion is to try "Anchor Lube". This is also a water soluble cutting medium. Easy clean up. Brush it on...use it as it comes (in plastic bottles) or dilute it some. It is a pretty green color. No commercial connection. Carbide is good with high RPM and low feed, or HSS with medium RPM and moderate rate of feed. Experimentation will get you there. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Milling 5052 Aluminum... Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:51 pm ((PST)) 5052 is nearly exclusively used for sheet metal products. It has excellent ductility (necessary for bending) and punches and shears well. Since it's rather soft, you're probably better with HSS than carbide, as long as they're razor sharp. Carbide would work fine, though. ------- Re: Milling 5052 Aluminum... Posted by: "Roy" rx~xxshred2.net Date: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:45 pm ((PST)) I have no idea if it was 5052, but I obtained a small stash of 1/8" Al sheet used for equipment chassis. It cut fine on my Taig with a 3/16 TiAN carbide 4-flute EM (what I had handy; I didn't pick that EM for any particular reason). ------- Re: My new Sherline lathe (help?) [sherline][Cutting Speed Calsulator] Posted by: "Ian Newman" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:53 pm ((PST)) Hello Group, I have created a folder called 'Cutting Speed Calculator' in the files section of the group and uploaded the spreadsheet that I use to give students a feel for the relationship between power, cutting depth, feed per rev (tool width in the case of parting) and surface speed. I've rearranged the sheet so it works in Imperial measurements as most members of the group seem to be in the USA (or 'The Colonies' as we still refer to it). It includes a section that translates the calculated maximum surface speed into RPM based on work size - this is to illustrate the fact that it is normally impractical to aim for 'commercial' cutting rates on a small machine. It is pretty obvious how it works and the sheet is locked to prevent accidental editing of bits that don't require user input. (There is no password protection so you can unlock the sheet to play with the details of the operation if you want). Any questions - just shout. Ian ------- Re: Cast Iron (was: New Fool on the Block) [sherline] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:17 am ((PST)) > > The problem there is that one needs, on the first pass, to get through > the thick hard skin that forms on the castings. There's a lot of variability to cast irons. Good quality gray cast iron machines very well. Next to 12L14, it's my favorite steel to machine on a Sherline. I've also done a couple of casting kit engines from P.M. Research and found they machined easily, though I did use a carbide end mill. It's my understanding that the machining quality depends on the number and type of inclusions in the iron: oxides, carbides, nitrides, sand, and other materials. As you suggest, these may be higher near the surface of the casting. Google "machinability cast iron" for much more information including: http://www.atlasfdry.com/machinability.htm and http://www.productionmachining.com/articles/a-look-at-today39s-ca st-iron.aspx As usual, I get my stock from McMaster-Carr. See their page 3582 for Machinable Cast Gray Iron. Good stuff. As Jerry K. and others discussed in an earlier, unrelated thread; it's one of the best materials for both cylinders and pistons. DC ------- Re: New Fool on the Block Posted by: "Dennis Cranston" dlcranstonx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:05 am ((PST)) Casting iron can be an art, 99% good and 1% bad. I, in the past, bought four pedestals (in a large scale). Three machined like butter, the fourth couldn't be cut on a full size Bridgeport. I machined a small steam engine made of cast iron in my Sherline with no problem. On the Sherline, I quite often cut cast iron on my CNC sherline and have no problems. I definitely prefer it to 1018 steel. I can cut the iron faster then the steel. I buy raw stock from the online metal suppliers, I think what I am getting is a Meehanite (sp? trade name). Castings, you are at the mercy of the supplier. All of the reputable suppliers of casting have a return policy that allows the replacement of a casting that has a 'chilled' spot. Dennis in Houston ------- Re: Steel [sherline] Posted by: "Frank Presley" fpres61x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:34 pm ((PST)) Hi John, I don't know where you live, but I would check your yellow pages as a starter for small quantity and salvage yards. Also check the hobby mags. Some of the sources I have found from include, www.onlinemetals.com, www.metalexpress.com, and www.speedymetals.com Enco and Mcmaster generally ship quickly. Not everybody has say 12L14. Some hobby shops have smaller sizes in aluminum, brass, and stainless steel. Your local home center typically has drill rod and 1018 steel which have their uses, but not really fun to turn. Hope this helps, Frank ------- NOTE TO FILE: Canadian and other countries' customers should verify with U.S. sources that they still export. Some have ceased exporting because of the hassle of paperwork from changed export regulations. ------- Re: New Fool on the Block [sherline] Posted by: "leonard laufer" awesomefordyx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:06 am ((PST)) Hi all. Here is a helpful trick when machining cast iron. Before machining cut or file a notch into the surface you want to machine. This allows the tool a spot to quickly get under the skin without destroying the cutting edge. The skin on cast iron is full of sand, scale, slag and all sorts of other nasty stuff that will quickly take the edge off a tool bit. Also, never use a lubricant on cast iron. The carbon flakes in the cast iron act as its own dry film lubricant and if you add a liquid it turns the carbon flakes into a lapping compound. ------- Re: strange steel [tigtools] Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue May 20, 2008 10:49 pm ((PDT)) On Tue, May 20, 2008, kd006 wrote: > I have a piece of steel labled 1018 mild steel, when I turn the > diameter it creates a crud that looks like flattened out braid from a > shielded cable if I take more than a few thou cut! Never have seen > this before in all the years I have been turning things, thought it > might be leaded steel or some such but the label is from OnLineMetals, > it was a piece someone got from their scrap bin so... > Any Ideas, the tool is sharp and set on center, running about 1000 RPM > on a 1.375 dia, finish is smooth when the crud does not build up ahead > of the tool bit. Kristin 1018 is the most common grade of cold rolled mild steel. The shape you describe is what the turnings often look like. If you take a deep cut (more than you could take on a Taig, like 50 thou plus), it will look more like regular turnings. Chip breakers help to control those nasty chips. Leaded steel (aka free machining steel) is most commonly 12L14 and turns much nicer. I use it whenever possible. Michael ------- Re: The importance and measurement of material hardness [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Jon Elson" elsonx~xxpico-systems.com Date: Tue May 27, 2008 7:53 pm ((PDT)) sstephanc wrote: > I've been collecting found material for future work, so I am never too > sure what I am dealing with except that it is steel. Here's a few > related questions: > 1) Do you bother to measure the hardness before machining? Yes, you bet! Hardened and ground shaft is common in printers, linear slides in old hard drives and floppies, etc. You can barely machine it with carbide, HSS tools are totally destroyed instantly. > 2) If so, how? A file is good, but it is very hard on the file. > 3) At what hardness do you anneal before machining? Some hard Chromed shafting can't be annealed very much, it just stays hard. Because there is oil, air and water hardening steels, it can be hard to determine the correct annealing procedure of unknown metals. > 4) If annealed, then heat treated, how much deformation takes place? It depends on the shape of the piece, how it was originally hardened, etc. On small shafts of a few inches length, you are not likely to have much problem, unless you greatly disturb the symmetry of the original metal. For instance, machining half off a round bar to make a "D" shape will cause many times the distortion of turning down the diameter. Jon ------- Re: The importance and measurement of material hardness Posted by: "sstephanc" sstephancx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue May 27, 2008 9:10 pm ((PDT)) Does anyone bother acquiring or making a hardness tester? The ones I used in college were pretty big and very heavy. Seems like a lot of space to dedicate to such a thing, and I think the table needs to be very stable. ------- Re: The importance and measurement of material hardness Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue May 27, 2008 10:00 pm ((PDT)) If I can't touch it with a file, the only thing that will touch it is my grinder. That's the general rule of thumb I use. No hobbyist I know uses a hardness tester. I have found that, while I save and salvage scrap like a squirrel, I have always been better off in terms of time and aggravation by buying or using new material. Most of the scrap I save is drops or leftovers from local machine shops, where I know what the material is, rather than junkyard scrap of unknown origin. ------- Re: The importance and measurement of material hardness Posted by: "Glenn N" sleykinx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed May 28, 2008 3:48 pm ((PDT)) It depends a lot on the project at hand. Most of the time if I can remove metal with a file at all it is ok to turn. I use mostly carbide tooling partly for that reason. Rust and scale can be daunting to deal with as it is really hard on cutters, but once you are past it things get better. I have QC tool holders loaded with cleanup/roughing bits and a finish bit so I switch after the good metal shows up. ------- Question about machining 12L14 steel [taigtools] Posted by: "rjberek" rberekx~xxrogers.com Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:57 am ((PDT)) Hi, I'm a novice at machining, and have recently acquired a Taig lathe. I've been turning 6061 aluminum for the last month with no issues, but yesterday I tried a 1.25" diameter piece of 12L14. I successfully faced the end I cut with a hacksaw, and dressed the outside of the stock too. But when I turned it around in the chuck and tried to face the end that was on the bar when I bought it, I ended up grinding down the HSS toolbit rather than the bar stock. The tool would work for an eighth of an inch or so, then it would stop cutting entirely because the cutting edge had been ground flat. I tried mightily but was largely unsuccessful at producing a decent finish on the end, and gave my grinder and tool bit quite a workout.. I read another post here that mentioned that plasma-cut 12L14 might become heat-affected and darn hard to machine. This bar stock appeared to be saw cut, but was dark brown/black like the rest of the bar. Is it a good practice to cut off the end of any bar stock you get? Or is this even my issue? Any help would be appreciated. I have used larger engine lathes and mills before, but am new to the micro-lathes and mills, and a novice machinist at best. Thanks in advance for any help. Rod Berek ------- Re: Question about machining 12L14 steel Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:36 am ((PDT)) Hi Rod: Most stock is sheared to length, sometimes hot, sometimes cold. When cold sheared, the end tends to get work hardened. Shorter lengths also tend to stand on end, often picking up grit and such that gets pressed into the rough finish. If the end was not square, the hammering of the intermittent cut can also cause tool wear. This is usually more of an issue with carbide (tends to chip or crack) than with HSS, but not all of the "HSS" floating around these days is top notch stuff. As a rule, I hack off around 1/4 to 1/2 inch on the ends of stock unless the rough end isn't going to be machined. Rough ends are fine for tent stakes and such :-) Cheers, Stan ------- Re: Question about machining 12L14 steel Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:51 am ((PDT)) Several questions: Are you sure it's 12L14? Is the cutting tool shimmed so that it's on center? What speed is the work revolving at? How is it chucked (3 jaw, 4 jaw independent)? What sort of rake angles are ground on the tool? Are you using cutting oil? See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Question about machining 12L14 steel Posted by: "kd006" kd006x~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:06 pm ((PDT)) Rod: In one of your previous posts you said "This bar stock appeared to be saw cut, but was dark brown/black like the rest of the bar." This would lead me to beleive it's not 12L14, I did a quick search and could not find hot rolled 12L14 it was all cold rolled which would have a shiny steel gray color not black/brown oxide surface. I recently got a piece of 5/8" hex 12L14 delivered and it cuts like butter, I had some 1018 CRS that cut as you describe, hard as a rock, chatter. Now for someone to tell me about hot rolled 12L14... You might be able to do a comparison if you have a grinder, take some known 1018 and your piece of 12L14 and observe the sparks, not sure of the exact test but different steel alloy will have more or fewer spurs or points on the sparks and will either travel all the way round the wheel or go into orbit part way round. >From another site- Spark Test This is a common shop test that can be very handy. Note that it has some faults. In general the higher the carbon the more branches the sparks. Low carbon steel has long sparks with few branches and high carbon steel has positively fuzzy looking sparks. Alloys effect the spark and the best way to tell is with some comparison samples of known alloys. Faults are primarily that different types of grinding wheels and speeds greatly affect the appearance of the spark. A hand held angle grinder makes a different spark than a bench grinder with fine wheel and that spark is different than one from a small high speed grinder like a Dremel tool. For this reason it is always a good idea to have some comparison samples of known steels. If you do all your testing on the same grinder in low light you can get pretty good at identifying varieties of steel. But using different grinders in different lighting conditions can often be fruitless. Also be aware that a wheel that is loaded with a different steel may make sparks from the contaminate as much as the test sample. If possible dress the wheel with a diamond or carburundum dressing stick. Kristin ------- Re: Question about machining 12L14 steel Posted by: "rjberek" rberekx~xxrogers.com Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:58 pm ((PDT)) I'll try to use this one post to reply to everyone's great suggestions and info. I'm also wondering if this is, in fact, 12L14 as well. It does not look like the descriptions, and does not machine like butter! It is very definitely a dark gunmetal gray with rusty brown blotches. There are the letters "SP" painted in yellow on one end. This may have meaning to the experts here, but it has none to me. I picked up a set of toolholders with indexable carbide inserts on the way home from work and tried those. Little improvement. I also tried with and without the QCTP and with the RH and round nose taig tools. And tried various speeds and feeds. I still get chattering. I'm only taking off .005 - .010 or so at a time, and the bar is only 1.5 inches long with maybe an inch extending past the chuck jaws. And I tried cutting oil. The end finish is still very rough. The swarf is like iron filings with the occasional hair-thin spiral thrown in. Since I've never used 12L14 before, I don't know if this is normal. I'm going to go back to the Metal Supermarktet tomorrow and see if the rest of their 12L14 looks the same. Thanks for all your help. I feel a bit silly but I've never used this metal before. It was in the materials list for an offset Taig tailstock I'm trying to make. I'll let you know what happens. Rod ------- Re: Question about machining 12L14 steel Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:10 pm ((PDT)) "SP" could mean "stressproof" , 1144, which machines ok, but nowhere near as nice as 12L14 http://www.niagaralasalle.com/products/stressproof.html http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-machinability.htm > It is very definitely a dark gunmetal gray with rusty brown blotches. > There are the letters "SP" painted in yellow on one end. This may > have meaning to the experts here, but it has none to me. See our homepage at www.cartertools.com/nfhome.html ------- Re: Question about machining 12L14 steel Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:50 pm ((PDT)) According to a quick google search of "steel color codes", yellow/gold is indeed the color code for stressproof, although usually that is when the whole end of the bar is painted, rather than just the letters. ------- Re: Question about machining 12L14 steel Posted by: "rjberek" rberekx~xxrogers.com Date: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:50 am ((PDT)) Well, mystery solved. It was not 12L14 for sure. I went back to the Metal Supermarket and had the fellow pick out some 12L14 in my presence and it looked totally different that what I have at home. This round stock was lighter colored and had a dull sheen, not a dark, dark gray matte finish. Basically exactly like many of you had described. I asked him about the yellow "SP" and he said that was likely Stressproof, but that is not a mark they use. How I got some he did not know, so he gave me a discount. I tried facing a small piece and it was like night and day. It worked very well. The speed was slow, the feed was slow, and I only took off maybe .005" - .010" each time, but the face looked pretty smooth. The carbide insert came loose a few times, but that can be attributed to a rough hacksaw cut and cheapo tools! Thanks for all your assistance. The help for a newcomer here is terrific. Now back to work to pay for this hobby! Thanks again Rod ------- Re: Question about machining 12L14 steel Posted by: "kd006" kd006x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:53 pm ((PDT)) Rod: Glad you got it sorted out, gave you a discount! Should have just given you the piece rather than charge you twice. One thing I do when cutting metals is wrap a strip of masking tape around the piece as a guide to try and get as square of a cut as possible. It also helps to keep the blade really tensioned so it does not twist. I also just got off the phone with Tom at A2Z CNC about my QC toolpost, last night as I was facing several pieces to length it rotated a bit and I discovered the part was .030 shorter than the last one. Seems the Anodize on the mount and toolpost are pretty slippery and he suggested a punched hole in a business card between the parts and even between the mount and cross slide. I may just lap the base and mount on a piece of 600 grit wet or dry paper and rough it up a bit; rather have it stable than pretty. Another thing I have learned is to mount my tool post in the right hand side as it seems to be more rigid that way. Kristin ------- turning stainless 303 hex bar [MyMyford] Posted by: "rsoperuk" robincsoperx~xxgooglemail.com Date: Tue Oct 7, 2008 8:34 am ((PDT)) Hi all, I'm intending to make up 1/4 inch BSF set screws from some stainless 303 hex bar (7/18). What I'd like to know is will standard hss tools do the job or are carbide tools required? Also as a complete novice the thought of turning a hex bar somewhat scares me. Are there any tricks or special techniques to get started? Thanks & Regards Rob ------- Re: turning stainless 303 hex bar Posted by: "tr0up" a.troupx~xxemail.com tr0up Date: Tue Oct 7, 2008 7:57 pm ((PDT)) As far as 300 series stainless goes, 303 is the pussycat of the bunch, unlike virtually all the rest; it's actually pretty easy to machine (although it's not so easy to get a shiny finish with it). If you're only doing a few, HSS will be fine, otherwise carbide would be worthwhile, but you'll need to be sure to make the first cut deep enough that the tip is continuously cutting; carbide tips are brittle and don't much like interrupted cuts, particularly on resilient lathes like a Myford. With the general run of 300 stainless, it's important to make sure the tool is always cutting positively. The moment you get to the end of the cut, withdraw the tool so it's not rubbing. And any advances of the tool into the material should be positive rather than tentative. Use power feed wherever you can, and in all other cases program your movements to be as robotic and machine-like (inexorable) as possible. This means practicing swapping hands each turn of the handwheels in such a way there is no change in the rotation rate. You'd probably get away without this advice for 303, IMHO, but it doesn't hurt to practice :-) ------- Re: turning stainless 303 hex bar Posted by: "DA. Forsyth" notLeftBehindx~xxiwr.ru.ac.za Date: Wed Oct 8, 2008 12:20 am ((PDT)) My experience with stainless is 'do not hesitate'. If the cutter hesitates and rubs, the stuff will workharden, and then you DO need carbide. Other than that, sharp hss is fine. I find for turning down hex, the first cut should cut into the flats so the cut is continuous. David http://iwr.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/ ------- Re: turning stainless 303 hex bar Posted by: "rsoperuk" robincsoperx~xxgooglemail.com Date: Sun Nov 2, 2008 1:19 pm ((PST)) Thanks for the replies on this one. Finally got round to having a go today and was really suprised by how easy stainless 303 this was to turn. Managed to take too much off with ease (twice!) ;D I need to get some micrometer dials I can actually see without crouching down and putting my glasses on. However the tool I was using (ground by me using the "sherline" www.sherline.com/grinding.htm method) gave a stringy finish, guess the tip need to be more rounded? Anyone have a good source of information on how to grind tools by hand, quite statifying making your own tools and yet another skill to mastered! Regards Rob ------- FCMS and PGMS [MyMyford] Posted by: "timperrin97" bobwozere12345x~xxaol.com Date: Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:29 am ((PST)) Dear All, I have recently got a Hemingway Kit for the Westbury dividing head. It claims to contain materials called FCMS and PGMS. I am simply wondering what these actually are. All the materials in the kit are metal and they look like steel to me (except the iron castings and the massive bit of bronze). If these are something special then do I need to machine them in a specific way? Many Thanks Tim ------- Re: FCMS and PGMS Posted by: "Bob Minchin" bob.minchinx~xxntlworld.com Date: Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:46 am ((PST)) Precision ground mild steel and Free-cutting mild steel. The former should have a ground finish and measure up to be very close to a standard size (metric or imperial). The latter usually has a grey rolled finish but no reason it might not be ground. It will have some lead in it usually to make it cut readily. It should form nice curly swarf and make a swishing noise as you turn it. The downside of free cutting is that it is not the strongest steel nor the most hardwearing -- avoid making nuts and bolts out of it. The PGMS presumably will have been selected for its dimensional uniformity and possibly not need much machining in your application. It should not be too difficult to machine with sharp tools, cutting oil/fluid and decent lathe. hth Bob ------- Re: FCMS and PGMS Posted by: "Mike Crossfield" mike.crossfieldx~xxvirgin.net Date: Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:55 am ((PST)) FCMS = Free Cutting Mild Steel As the name implies, this is easy to machine, and you should be able to get a good turned finish without difficulty. Probably EN1A or equivalent. PGMS = Precision Ground Mild Steel As the name tells you, this is accurately ground to the specified diameter. Similar dimensional accuracy to silver steel, but cheaper. Not normally an especially free machining steel, but then again, it probably only needs cutting to length for your application. HTH Mike ------- Re: I just found some really hard steel [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "n5kzw" n5kzwx~xxarrl.net Date: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:45 pm ((PST)) Whenever I find something really hard, I usually just build up a good fire early in the morning and then toss the steel in when there is a good bed of coals. I keep the fire burning for another 4 or 5 hours and then just let it burn down over night. By morning, whatever it was is usually soft enough to cut. Regards, Ed ------- Re: free-machining or leaded steel [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Brett Jones" brettx~xx5foot2.com Date: Fri Jan 2, 2009 9:30 pm ((PST)) n8as1x~xxaol.com wrote: > just dont make any mistakes on your turnings as it doesent weld worth a > #%$ . ? best wishes docn8as I'm not sure about other leaded steels, but 12L14 sure likes to rust. Keep things oiled, or apply a finish to your completed parts. Brett Jones ------- Re: free-machining or leaded steel Posted by: "James Rice" james.ricex~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jan 2, 2009 9:32 pm ((PST)) No joke. I carried some knurled nuts made out of 12L14 in my pocket for half a day and they looked like that had been sitting under the ocean for a month. James ------- Re: free-machining or leaded steel Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Fri Jan 2, 2009 9:50 pm ((PST)) I picked up some 12L14 hex bars off ebay. 20 pieces 12" long of 9/16 and 13/16 stock. Was something like $20. Do a search for 12L14 on ebay, some comes up with no bids. Since the above sizes were odd, no one bid. Does machine nicely. Does rust as others have said. I have no problem welding to it. The raked HSS tool adapter I milled was made with 12L14 13/16 stock. A pic of the adapter is here: http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/atlas_craftsman/photos/view/946e?b=8 Or: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman-12x36/adapter2.jpg Scott G. Henion Consultant Stone Mountain, GA SHDesigns http://www.shdesigns.org ------- Re: free-machining or leaded steel Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Sat Jan 3, 2009 10:23 am ((PST)) Brett Jones wrote: > I've never had a reason to weld 12L14, but I've heard it didn't weld > well. What welding process did you use? I used MIG. I was welding it to mild steel. I would not want to do a lot of it as it probably gives off lead fumes. Worked fine, did not notice any problems. I did expect some porosity like welding galvanized, but did not see any. Scott G. Henion ------- Re: I just found some really hard steel [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jan 2, 2009 9:30 pm ((PST)) On Jan 1, 2009, Elton E. (Tony) Clark wrote: >I get some useful shapes of metal as "drops" from various fabricators and >machine shops who sell to my neighboring salvage yard. I was not pleased >when I took some paint code marked ends to a machine shop fabricator >expecting him to be able to tell me what I had. He said that unless one >knows the supplier, steel color codes are not helpful in "typing" steel. >Izzat true? There are no standard color codes? *Tony* Yes, that is correct. Each company (and sometimes within the company) uses a different method. For example, my local metals supplier gets metal from two or three different companies, each with their own codes, then re-marks everything with their own code, which in some cases gets re- marked by the machine shops with their own codes. ------- Re: Hardened Brass? [sherline] Posted by: "Keith Green" ksggx~xxtelus.net Date: Fri Feb 6, 2009 1:05 am ((PST)) jshea_n4dsp wrote: > Someone told me there was such a thing as hardened brass. They are > used for bushings in clocks but I just read in the machinery handbook > that brass can only be work hardened. So when and where is this brass > work hardened? > On another note which is stronger and more resistant to wear, Brass or > Bronze? "Hardened Brass or Bronze"? Can Bronze be hardened? I work in a gearcutting shop and we make the occasional gear from bronze. There are 2 types that we use. Phosphorus Bronze (SAE 680 I think) is the softer of the two but still very wear resistant. It machines nicely but will typically outlast a case-hardened steel mating wormshaft. The other type we use is Aluminum Bronze (SAE 620 or 625 maybe??) and this stuff is very hard. Not very forgiving to machine in that even carbide tools wear out fairly quickly in it. Typical cutting speeds are comparable to those for 4340 heat treated steel (about 400 surface feet/min.), though tool geometry will vary. Haven't heard of 'hardened brass' before. I think that, once you alloy brass with other elements, it tends to be called bronze. Keith ------- Re: Hardened Brass? Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Feb 6, 2009 5:37 am ((PST)) William Rutiser wrote: > The drawing and rolling processes used to make brass rod and sheet work > harden the material. It may be annealed as appropriate before sale. Right on, Bill. How are you? One can order brass in quarter, half and full hard.....etc..... Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Hardened Brass? Posted by: "Art Fish" 1art2fishx~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Feb 6, 2009 6:39 am ((PST)) Here's some information on Brass, from "OnlineMetals.Com" in Seattle WA. They have most types of metals and most are available in small quantities, as small as 1 foot length each. They have a similar guide to all their metals on their homepage, just click on go to homepage below and click on "Product Page". link for this page is: http://www.onlinemetals.com/brassguide.cfm link for their homepage is: http://www.onlinemetals.com/ Art Fish Corvallis, OR USA Back in Time Clock Repair [and in a later message Art said:] I wasn't trying to advertise the company, just the location where this information could be found....I have received good service from them for the 1 time I have used them, for 2 pieces of brass rod, 3 pieces of steel rod. Art ------- NOTE TO FILE: Art quoted the brass page at Online Metals which is copyrighted material so it was not copied here. But you really should visit their website for considerable information on various metal and plastic products. Usual disclaimer -- I have no affiliation with them. ------- Re: Hardened Brass? Posted by: "Gopal Gopinathan" g2warrierx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Feb 6, 2009 8:42 am ((PST)) Brass is essentially a metal alloy of copper and zinc, with not more than 5% or 6% of other metals. The zinc content ranges from 20% to 45%, and the colour of brass varies accordingly from coppery to whitish yellow. Brasses are usually classed into those that can be worked cold (up to 25% zinc) and those that are better worked hot (about 40% zinc) Metallurgically speaking, brasses are classified into alpha- and beta Brass. The alpha phase is stable for concentrations up to approximately 35 wt% Zn. This phase has an FCC (face centered cubic) crystal structure and is relatively ductile and easily cold- worked. Alpha brasses are widely used in the manufacture of pins, bolts, screws, and ammunition cartridge cases. The beta brasses are less ductile but stronger and thus are suitable for the manufacture of faucet handles, sprinkler heads, window and door fittings, and other fixtures. Beta brasses (40-45% zinc) are less ductile than alpha brasses but stronger. Composition of beta brasses are difficult to control as Zinc leaches out at high temperatures. They also tend to have incluive pores and are prone to stress fracture. A third group includes brasses with additional elements. Among these are lead brasses, which are more easily machined; naval and admiralty brasses, in which a small amount of tin improves resistance to corrosion by seawater; and aluminum brasses, which provide strength and corrosion resistance where the naval brasses may fail. GG Warrier ------- NOTE TO FILE: There was a plus and minus discussion in atlas_craftsman as to the use of aluminium versus steel or cast iron to make lathe accessories like a new cross slide with perhaps T-slots. Phil then provided some insight into use of aluminium (okay, aluminum for you folks south of the border) in the auto industry. ------- Re: Aluminium cross slide [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "FIFTYGUYx~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Feb 7, 2009 8:56 am ((PST)) WRT to use of aluminum in automotive applications: 1. These days car engineers are under great pressure to reduce weight - this improves acceleration, braking, handling, and fuel economy. So aluminum alloys (and magnesium alloys, polymers, and composites) are often chosen with this goal as the overriding criteria. I believe in the Acura NSX the biggest piece of ferrous material was a tube behind the steering wheel! If you think weight reduction at any cost (or rather *cost* reduction at any cost!) is good, go look at a Trabant... 2. Light weight is extremely critical to handling characteristics - the less "unsprung weight" the better. So aluminum and ultra-lightweight wheels (and suspension and brake components) win again. 3. People like the look of fancy wheels, and fancy wheels are easier to cast and machine out of aluminum. 4. Wheels are not designed to withstand even minor crashes - so if they crack or deform, they are intended to be replaced. No manufacturer of aluminum wheels, OEM or aftermarket, has ever approved any repair procedure for alloy wheels. Sure, there are places that will weld/ straighten them, but you do so entirely at your own risk. 5. Yes, the mixing of materials with different thermal expansion coefficients has caused great headaches for automotive engines. Yes, gaskets have failed because of differing expansion. I guess they've got it worked out better nowadays - or they're using so many aluminum blocks that having aluminum heads doesn't make much difference. 6. And speaking of aluminum cylinder heads, the main reason the after- market and factory performance departments use aluminum for performance heads is that it's cheap and easy to cast and machine compared to cast iron. Aluminum has a number of great disadvantages, such as the aforementioned expansion, susceptibility to corrosion, less vibration dampening, significantly less wear resistance, and excellent thermal conductivity which actually causes a performance decrease by wasting heat that could be kept in the combustion chamber! But they do weigh less than cast iron heads and for big engines this can be a substantial savings with big engines. 7. Aluminum is almost mandatory in high-end applications like alcohol and top fuel engines because it is by nature less rigid than steel or cast iron. The aluminum helps absorb the shock loading from the piston. But you have to add in a few thousandths of extra piston-to-cyl-head (and valves) clearance because those aluminum rods stretch more than steel ones do. This increased clearance can also affect performance negatively (less efficient quench and squish area in the chamber). 8 Aluminum is almost universally used for pistons because the reciprocating mass is concentrated here, which is a major drawback to piston designs by definition! I suppose it helps reduce galling, and helps the piston transfer heat to the cylinder wall (unlike the head, the poor piston is not in direct contact with coolant or cooling surfaces so it needs to get rid of the heat any way it can! Same for the poor valves, but you can't make those out of aluminum!). Even then, the choice of alloy in the pistons has a major effect on performance and necessary clearances mainly due to thermal expansion effects. Even aluminum blocks use iron sleeves. 9. In valvetrain components, fancy aluminum alloy aftermarket rocker arms can flex more than even stamped steel factory ones. Sure, they again save some reciprocating mass, and more importantly, reduce the mass the camshaft has to move, but you have to take flex into account with your clearances and camshafts and timing. 10. Aluminum also makes a nice lightweight transmission housing, but if you're gonna be doing any serious work you often replace it with a housing (or different transmission!) with a steel or iron housing. Differential housings are still typically made of nodular iron (although steel is often used for axle tubing). 11. Carburetors, throttle bodies, and intake manifolds are made out of aluminum because of the ease of casting and machining. I've heard of magnesium alloys used for weight savings. But diesel valve bodies and injector pumps on big trucks tend to be cast iron! 12. Motorcycles take all this to the extreme, mainly because performance and looks of exposed components sell motorcycles, and people are willing to pay four times the price for a motorcycle part that's half the size of the corresponding car part. Motorcycle engines, being smaller, typically run higher RPM than cars so the weight savings on reciprocating parts can really add up. Remember that centrifugal loads go up as the square of the RPM - 2,000 RPM has twice the loading of 1,000 RPM, 3,000 RPM has nine times the loading, 10,000 RPM has 100 times the loading. Think of this the next time you bolt something to the faceplate in your lathe! In other words, aluminum is usually substituted for steel because of *weight* in cars, and its lesser strength and modulus is countered by bulkier designs which somewhat cancel its weight savings anyhow. Decreased production cost is another big plus for aluminum. The increased thermal conductivity and expansion *are* a source of problems and have to be accounted for. WRT to polyconcrete fill of hollow parts: The modulus of any epoxy/granite, polymer, polymer/concrete, or just concrete is going to be substantially less than that of a steel or iron component of equal cross-section. Steel is pretty stiff stuff (tungsten carbide is even better!) Plus any polymer is going to suffer "creep" to one degree or another. Not to say that if you *have* the space in a component that it shouldn't be utilized for damping material, nor that you should design a component from a billet of steel. The goal is to get your parts as rigid as possible so they don't deflect under load. Geometry is almost as important as the material. A chain has great tensile strength, but you can't push anything with it. A pile of bricks has good compressive strength, but you can't pull anything with it. Extra mass is nice, especially if it dampens vibrations. It may reduce the amplitude of higher vibrations, but at its resonant frequency, it will have a very *high* amplitude! And the less the rigidity, the lower the resonant frequency. So usually the goal is to use the lightest, stiffest components to reduce deflection and to push the resonant frequency so high that the amplitude of vibrations is negligible. Then add enough dampening mass (in the proper way) to attenuate those vibrations thoroughly! All this is tough to do from solid aluminum. BTW, another disadvantage to aluminum is that it's not very durable in a shop environment. Ask any Taig owner - the filled aluminum bed is rigid *enough* for the application, but pulled-through T-slots are common among novice users. It's a lot easier to put a ding in aluminum part than a steel one. I would also worry about steel chips embedding in precision aluminum surfaces. Tapped holes need steel inserts if they are going to be used much. And of course aluminum doesn't self-lubricate like cast iron (or even brass). And aluminum as a raw material is generally more expensive than steel. There's an old engineering saying that goes: "When deciding whether to use aluminum or plastic in an application, choose steel." :) Phil LaBudde Center for the Advanced Study of Ballistic Improbabilities ------- Re: Aluminium cross slide Posted by: "FIFTYGUYx~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Feb 8, 2009 10:10 am ((PST)) "Ivan" _hulagun66x~xxyahoo.com wrote: >Wow. I read this whole post and kept thinking "what about >motorcycles"motorcycles"? Then at the end you mentioned I deliberately left out another huge user of light alloys - the areospace industry. But the safety or design factors there are as low as 1.20, and structures are often allowed to flex quite a bit. Not what we want for machine tools! Weight is *king* here - I don't know if anybody's ever made a helicopter out of steel. And it costs about $10,000 per pound of payload just to get into orbit! They also use a lot of titanium, which is fine, but I personally find titanium a pain to machine and I save it for applications where it's absolutely necessary. Of course, it would be fun bragging rights to say you've got the world's only Atlas cross slide made out of titanium! :) And then there's military applications for light alloys. In the past few decades the number of small arms that use aluminum or composite receivers has risen greatly, so much so that it's the first choice material. But most attempts at high-powered barrels made from anything but steel have been failures. And almost every barrel has a steel liner, even titanium ones. Stellite and chrome sometimes help the steel out. Forget titanium, you want *real* bragging rights? Machine a cross slide out of Stellite! And aluminum cartridge casings can save a good amount weight - but all they have to do is hold everything together and seal the chamber *once*. Don't ever reload them! Steel casings tend to last even longer than brass ones when reloaded. Starting around the '60's there was a push for aluminum alloys as main armor to save weight. But ask any sailor on an aluminum ship about fatigue cracks (and the damage control problems in a fire!), or anybody who's ridden in a M113 or early Bradley (they stop *most* bullets). I'm curious how well the new high-tech aluminum armor for the MRAP works out... If anybody gets a hold of a slab of Alcoa's latest and greatest, let us know how well it machines :) You could always make parts entirely out of ceramic. You won't have to worry about a crack going unnoticed in a Boron Carbide cross slide! And Boron Nitride can have self-lubricating properties like cast iron as well. Stiffness is much better than steel, cast iron, and of course aluminum. You can machine some of these ceramics with tungsten carbide tooling, but other grades have to be diamond polished. You could just rub your tool bits right on the lathe to sharpen them! :) Phil LaBudde Center for the Advanced Study of Ballistic Improbabilities ------- Re: Milling Stainless [sherline] Posted by: "Marcus" marcusx~xximplant-mechanix.com Date: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:12 pm ((PST)) "jehintz" wrote: > Looking for advice on milling stainless. I'm not sure what variant I > have here. I was able to cut it with a 3/16 HSS mill with little > problem so I don't think it is one of the harder varieties. I need to > cut a slot about .250 deep by .250 long that will be .084 wide. I > tried a 1/16 4 and 2 flute and it just dulls them. Both of the 1/16 > cutters are HSS. Would a carbide mill do the job? I have no > experience with carbide mills. Thanks, Jon Hintz Hi Jon: There are a couple of things you need to keep in mind if you want to mill stainless steel with carbide, especially deep narrow slots. First, carbide is stronger and harder than HSS but it is also much more brittle. Your cutters cannot be allowed to run out any more than 0.0005" TIR or you'll be breaking them often and wondering why. Second, carbide does not do well at all if it's forced to recut chips, so you need to have a continuous air stream directed into the cut to keep the developing slot clear. Third, all grades of stainless HATE plunge cuts into the solid with endmills...they're tough gummy steels that loads up the tiny relief slots in the face of the endmill and will snap it in a heartbeat if you push it just a tiny bit too hard. The correct protocol is to either predrill it or ramp the cutter in at a shallow angle...3 degrees or less. Fourth, stainless steels will almost all work harden very quickly if you let a cutter dwell and rub, so the preferred cutting strategy is light DOC and aggressive feedrates. Fifth, the rule of thumb for any milling operation is to use the biggest cutter you can crowd into the geometry...this is especially true for skinny slots like you're trying to cut. Get yourself a couple of 5/64" or 2 mm four flute endmills...stub length if you can make it to full depth with that style. Stubbies are MUCH stronger than regular length endmills and can be necked down if necessary to allow them to get into a deeper slot, but you need a spin grinder and a diamond wheel to do this, so it's pretty much impossible for most hobbyists to mod them in this way. Harvey Tools does sell stubbies with necked down shanks for this purpose but they're pricey. Sixth, stainless likes cutting fluid; makes life much easier for the cutter. Rapidtap is very good, if a bit smelly...get a tiny bottle with a fine dispensing tip and put a drop in the slot every 30 seconds or so. DON'T use a brush...that's one of the dumber habits that seem to have found their way into milling lore. The problem is that the brush bristles are forever getting caught between the cutter and the workpiece...with a big cutter you give the brush a haircut, yourself a wet spot in the trousers, and the job a big ugly divot on the milled surface. With a small cutter you just break the cutter. Needless to say, jamming the spigot of the bottle into the cutter doesn't improve it either, but at least you can control the position of it better than you can a brush. That's about all I can think of off hand...sounds a bit intimidating but it's really not all that bad. Cheers Marcus ------- kind of metal and drill [sherline] Posted by: "rsimonus" reidsimx~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 9:41 pm ((PDT)) I need to know what kind of metal does Sherline use on bed? I assume it is aluminum 6061 or 4041. Is there a webpage that I can learn about metal? I would like to make something. Right now I would like to make small base for rotary table and rest post. I will need to drill four holes for hex screws at the bottom of plate. How do we drill holes for pocket that hex screw will be inside? Do we use boring head tool? Is there a way we can buy drill bit that can drill small and big hole at the same time? Does anyone know if there is third party who sell T nuts and hold down clamps? Reid ------- Re: kind of metal and drill Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Mon Apr 6, 2009 10:12 pm ((PDT)) This is normally done with a bit called a "counterbore". First you drill the inside hole. Then use the counterbore to drill the wider area for the pocket. A counterbore is like a milling cutter with a smooth pin on the end that just fits inside the original hole. You can kind of use an endmill to do this also but it won't be quite perfect. A2Z CNC makes nuts he calls "tuff nuts" sized for Sherline. I don't know if there are 3rd party hold down clamps. Alan ------- Re: kind of metal and drill Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Apr 7, 2009 6:14 am ((PDT)) Good morning Reid, Alan, et al I have Enco's counterbore set seen at: http://tinyurl.com/c833vg I've found them very satisfactory at a reasonable price. I counterbore nearly every bolt hole, whether or not it's really necessary, just because I think it makes for a neater, more finished appearance. I also have the A2Z tee nuts and like them a lot, see: http://www.a2zcnc.com/machinetools.asp Regarding aluminum plate. For the uses you describe, I recommend MIC6, also known as tooling plate. It's cast, stress relieved, ground flat, parallel, and dimensionally accurate. Machines very well. I use it in any application where the surfaces of the plate will constitute part of the finished product. see: http://tinyurl.com/ded26p 6061 is one of the most common aluminum alloys. It's widely used in aerospace and in structural applications because of its high strength to weight ratio. But this is not often such an important criterion for the home shop machinist, and it's not the best machining alloy. I use mostly 7075. See: http://tinyurl.com/cvwggu and: http://tinyurl.com/cq46eb for much good information about aluminum alloys. It's important to understand that harder materials are not necessarily harder to machine. Machinability has to due with the propensity of a material to peel off in clean, uniform, strips. Softer materials are often very challenging. Also consider steel for your tooling and work pieces. Most of the steel on Sherline products is 12L14; about the easiest and most fun stuff to machine there is. It's not available as plate, though. For plate, use alloy 1018. For stainless steel, 303. When great hardness is needed, use oil hardening tool steel and learn to flame harden with a torch. Finally, for brass, alloy 360. Enter the names of any of these metals or alloys in the search window at http://www.mcmaster.com/# for a wealth of valuable information. In my opinion, the above constitutes about 95 percent of all a home shop machinist will ever really need to know about metal. DC David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 11:10:32 -0900 From: Phil Koontz Subject: [OldTools] Froe and steel yak As I was writing that recent for sale note, I came across this Rural Blacksmith blog by Steve Kellogg that I thought might be of general interest -- particularly the articles about making froes and holdfasts. http://ruralblacksmith.blogspot.com/2009/09/what-is-froe-tool-mak ing-in-blacksmiths.html http://ruralblacksmith.blogspot.com/2009/05/hold-fasts-bench-dogs-dog ged-to-bench.html Ahh, I guess what I want to say about steel is to describe sort of a friendly attachment with it, and a feeling of personality that makes some steel or iron good for a job and some definitely wrong. Blacksmiths have always reused iron and steel, of course. Todd's note yesterday about using wagon tires for froes struck a note with me, because I suddenly realized that of course that's what froes were made of. I don't have wagon tires as a resource, so I didn't know that. Anvilfire and some other blacksmithing sites have tables and lists of different kinds of steel--how to identify them, how much carbon and other alloying agents they have, and what they can be used for, and of course there is spark testing that sort-of lets you make a guess at carbon content. And you can test for hardness with a file or some such. But after a while, it's like the steel talks to you, telling you its history and ambitions, its strengths and weaknesses, as it were. I'm sure most oldtoolies are like that with wood--it's all different, and you would never use, say, Osage orange for making a rocking chair, or Southern Yellow Pine for a chisel handle -- it's rude to the wood, besides being a waste of your own effort. So, I want to just mentally go through my scrap pile and show you what's there. Let's start with the exotics, the air hardening tool steels like D2, H13, and S7. I bought them years ago at a BAM (I'm still a proud member of the Blacksmiths Association of Missouri, BTW), and hide them in secret places. They are like jewels that are way too precious to use, except for special hot punches and cutting tools. I don't use A2, the faddish cryogenic heat treatable steel that seems to be going around for yuppie bastid plane irons these days -- just don't see the point. If anbody comes across some Atlantic 33, though please let me know. It's supposed to be the sh-- for hot chisels. High speed steel and carbides are just commodities, like chalk in the old school classrooms, stashed in a drawer and used until they are too small to handle. I use them for the lathes and drillbits, and I bought a special grinding wheel for the carbides, but I don't love them. Spring steel is good for some things. You can whip out a pretty good tanged knife or chisel with it, and heat treat it, most of the time, and end up with a decent edge. But it's like the guy in a bar who sits too close to you, talks too loud, bums cigarette and drinks, then tries to borrow money -- you are generally better off without it. It's hard to grind, hard to forge, hard to weld, hard to heat treat, and the quality of the finished tools is still just mediocre -- sometimes even bad, or worse, sometimes they just break from the quenching process. You can put a lot more work into using it than it's worth. As another analogy, think of pallet lumber with lots of nails in it. Sometimes you are willing to use it, sometimes not. I recently hauled off most of the leaf springs around here because they were just in the way. Coil springs are a different matter. Simple carbon steel is like bread and butter for cold work tools and cutting chisels--high carbon like O1, W1, and 1095 for wood working tools, and medium carbon like 1040 or 1065 for impact tools like hammers. You can find W1 in the wild if you look for it -- old files, coil springs and farm rakes are the traditional source of high carbon steel for things like laminated (sometimes called "steeled") edges. Medium carbon steel is actually pretty common, and it's great stuff. It's in things like air drills, power transmission shafts, overhead door shafts, and jackhammer bits -- anything that needs to resist shock or abrasion, like grader blades. The nice thing about medium carbon is that it will get moderately hard, but it doesn't get so hard that it will break. It's great for hotwork tools and for anything that takes impacts. If you find a piece of steel that's long and round, or long and hexagonal or octagonal, it's probably medium carbon. Grab it. Structural steel is the vast middle class of the scrap iron world. The main problem with salvaging structural steel is that it comes in big pieces, usually way too big. If you can cut it, it's great. Angle iron, plates, and I-beams beams are the most desirable, in about that order. There is one caveat, that some structural steel is the cheap stuff called A36, made of melted down scrap iron, of completely random content. Rebar is A36, and it usually isn't worth hauling home. Pipe is a generally non-useful shape. There are things you can do with it, but it's like pizza -- there is way too much of it in the world. Genuine, factory made low carbon steel, like 1018 is usually fairly expensive, and unless you buy your steel new, you probably aren't getting it. Low carbon steel is an ornamental smith's friend -- easy to work, impossible to heat treat but dead reliable for what it does. Almost the only steel Jake and I actually buy and fly out here from town is 1018 cold rolled round bar that we use for holdfasts. There is about a ton of old 3/4" round bar stock in my yard now, and it would work for holdfasts, but we don't use it because it's A36. We figure it's well worth spending a few bucks to use the 1018. Silica based wrought iron (as opposed to carbon-based mild steel) is even nicer than low carbon steel, sometimes, in some ways. It's only available as salvage, because they quit making it about 100 years or more ago. Jake described it as like working with butter. I hoard and hide all my wrought iron, so it will probably go to someone else when I'm too old to use it, like that stash of wood in a recent thread. It tends to have a fibrous structure, like wood grain, and it's almost always hand forged. *Note-- Re-reading this, I see that I used the terms 1040, 1018, and such without explanation. They refer to simple carbon steel, with no other alloying agents. The last two or three digits tell you how much carbon they have. 1018 contains 0.18% carbon, which puts it well in the low carbon range. Medium carbon is about 0.40 to 0.75%, and high carbon is about 0.75 to maybe 1.2%. More carbon that about 2 or 3% makes cast iron. ------- Drill Rod [taigtools] Posted by: "Jack" tech.writerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:31 am ((PST)) Enco sells various sizes of steel drill rod - can this be used for making threaded studs with the Taig lathe? Also, is the Enco product likely to be the same as the steel rods sold at Lowes and HD? Do I need carbide tools to turn these materials? ------- Re: Drill Rod Posted by: "kd006" kd006x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:03 am ((PST)) Jack: The stuff from the big box stores is CRS cold rolled steel, not drill rod. You probably want water hardening drill rod as I understand it's easier to machine than the oil hardening type. Kristin ------- Re: Drill Rod Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:21 am ((PST)) Hi Jack: Yeah, you can use drill rod for threading. Get W-1 or O-1. I've machined a lot of both, and can't tell the difference in cutting. The difference is the medium you would use for hardening and tempering. I often use them for making cutting tools. The stuff you see at Home Depot is not proper CRS. It usually has a zinc coating, and its composition is suspect. You can turn it, but it takes an effort with a sharp tool to get a nice finish. Not like any CRS you would buy from a real metal supplier. I avoid the big box metal. What you get from Enco, when you buy drill rod, is real drill steel. It is annealed and ground, which means it will be ready to cut/thread and be near to a perfect dimension, (.250" rod will really be .250" dia). It has a nice bright finish when you get it. I've turned miles of this stuff. Just use a HSS tool with a good edge. Carbide has no advantage that I can see for this steel. Dean ------- Re: Drill Rod Posted by: "Mike Nicewonger" twmasterx~xxtwmaster.com Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:31 am ((PST)) Jack: The stuff sold by the DIY stores like Lowe's and the BORG is usually crap. Truly 'mystery metal'. The stuff sold by Enco is real drill rod. Sized as stated. Ready to use. Also, if you have a Fastenal nearby they can get drill rod if the local store does not stock it. That way you'll save on shipping. Mike N ------- Re: Drill Rod Posted by: "kuhncw" kuhncwx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:42 pm ((PST)) 12L14 leaded steel is worth considering as it turns and threads even easier than drill rod and makes fine bolts, studs, etc. Quite a few online metal suppliers sell 12L14 as do McMaster Carr, MSC, etc. Regards, Chuck ------- Re: Drill Rod Posted by: "kd006" kd006x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:07 pm ((PST)) Chuck: While 12L14 is easy, it can't be hardened or welded; the drill rod on the other hand can be worked easily, and with a small propane torch hardened in either oil or water depending on the material. Plus as pointed out drill rod is ground to size unlike other stock which is rolled or drawn. Kristin ------- Re: Drill Rod Posted by: "Jack" tech.writerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:48 pm ((PST)) Hey Dean, that sounds like what I need. In fact, the particular studs I need to make will be 1/4-20. If the material is reasonably accurate at 1/4" diam., it will save me some time. Incidentally, these will be threaded permanently (red Loctite) into 6061 "buttons" that I'm turning on the lathe. I'll use these parts to replace regular hex screws, and they'll hold down the 20 lb. transformer in my audio project. Do you think I'll need to temper the studs for this use? Jack ------- Re: Drill Rod Posted by: "kd006" kd006x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:00 pm ((PST)) Jack: No need to temper or harden them for that use, and the size of the drill rod and finish will enhance the "look" and make production easier. Kristin ------- Re: Drill Rod Posted by: "Collins, Graham" collingx~xxnavcanada.ca Date: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:00 am ((PST)) True, 12L14 cannot be easily welded but it is easily silver brazed (or silver soldered if you prefer. 12L14 can also easily be case hardened using something like Kasenite (available from MSC, and other sources - think gunsmithing, Brownells?) or Quick Hard (similar to Kasenite but marketed by Harris which I use) or a product called Cherry Red. See: http://www.rosemill.com/product.asp?productid=258450 I have not tried the last one but its promotional literature is interesting. I contacted the company a couple of years ago and they are (were at that time) working up distributors and it may be easier to get in smaller quantities. You can also pack harden it quite easily as well. All require a source of heat (of course) and can be as simple as a propane or mapp hand torch and a couple of fire bricks. Some info steel I find handy: http://www.onlinemetals.com/steelguide.cfm I try and keep things simple and generally keep my steel uses to mostly general purpose work 12L14; where I really need something very tough, 4140 (and it is very tough to turn on a Taig); and if I am concerned about distortion during or after turning I use 1144. Drill rod usually O1, when I want to make a shaft or something where I want a good finish and size right off the shelf without having to fuss over finishing a turned piece, or Drill Rod when I am making a piece of tooling like a D bit. For your stated purpose the finished appearance of the drill rod will work really well. If you wanted a nice dark blue oxide/oil finish then 12L14 works very well (I can post details and some pics of this sort of finish if you are interested). Cheers, Graham in Ottawa Canada ------- Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 09:27:17 -0800 From: Ron Hock Subject: [OldTools] RE: Dumb Steel Questions..... Hot rolled steel has been rolled to shape while hot so it has a rough oxide surface with a black "bark". Structural steel, I-beams, channel, angle, etc., is hot rolled. Cold rolled (or cold finished) is rolled to shape cold and therefore has a much smoother surface. The cold rolling also tends to work harden it a bit so it's a little tougher than hot rolled but still machines easily. Neither hot- or cold-rolled mild steel (the common varieties that are readily available) will have enough carbon to harden by heat treatment. O1 on the other hand is an oil-hardening tool steel alloy that must conform to strict alloying limits specified by the American Iron and Steel Institute (AISI). The McMaster stock you mention is probably drill rod so you'd be paying a premium for precision grinding (but it would be very pretty) and the alloying precision that you'd only need if you wanted to harden it. I've used drill rod in non-hardened condition when I needed a precise diameter or good looks but it's not the only way to get there, just sometimes the most convenient. It is considerably tougher, even in a fully annealed state, than mild steel due to its carbon content but can still be machined easily. Ron Hock I've written a book on sharpening for woodworkers! The Perfect Edge -- available this fall! (ISBN 978-1558708587) HOCK TOOLS http://www.hocktools.com 16650 Mitchell Creek Dr Fort Bragg, CA 95437 (707) 964-2782 fax (707) 964-7816 ------- Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 09:43:26 -0800 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] RE: Dumb Steel Questions..... We still don't have any idea --why-- you want this steel?? 6 bucks is an unbelievable price on O-1!! Jump all over that! But save it for tools. Don't forget shipping, even from McMaster, who is one of the best, shipping is never free. You can get a 3' stick of cold rolled 3/8 from any auto parts and most hardware stores for $2 and for a toy axle or short machine part that doesn't need to be hardened, or most things you'd need a stick of 3/8" stock for?? If it's only a short piece of 3/8 you need, rummage through your scrap junk for a long bolt and cut off the head and tail. But still, a stick of O-1 for 6 bucks?? I think I better look at that myself. yours Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Easy machining steel [barstockengines] Posted by: "ernie7x~xxbellsouth.net" Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 12:16 pm ((PST)) I've been building engines for several years and enjoy working with brass and aluminum. I avoid working with steel with a passion. Until I was told by my friend Dal Detrich, to try 12L14. So I ordered some from an on line supplier and walah.... the stuff machines like butter. Mill it turn it or drill it. Almost as easy as brass. Originally I used a piece of 1" drill rod to make a four lobed crank shaft. It took a week and three tries and still was no good. Then came 12L14 and after a few hours the job was complete. If you have not used 12L14 give it a try. Ernie South Florida ------- Re: Easy machining steel Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 12:47 pm ((PST)) Easier than brass, actually. No need to lip your drills. Only drawback is 12L14 not available in plate. So, do yourself another favor and try 1018, which is. It's just as nice to work with, maybe nicer. And, believe it or not, so is high quality gray cast iron. I get mine from McMaster, see: http://www.mcmaster.com/#cast-iron/=59e1ir There's a whole world of iron and steel out there, you owe yourself to try. Start with those and let us know how you make out. I predict you'll come to feel, as I do, that brass and aluminum is a PITA to work with. I love steel. David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: Easy machining steel Posted by: "Ron Gerlach" r7734gx~xxhotmail.com Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 2:04 pm ((PST)) David: How can you say that 1018 is nicer to work with than 12L14? 1018 will give a horrible finish unless you have very sharp cutting tools with the correct rake. This is usually not an issue with milling cutters but it is a big issue with stock turned in a lathe. It tends to be gummy and cuts with uneven progress unless you correctly sharpen your cutting tool. I will admit 1018 is much more readily available in cold and hot rolled forms. I also agree with the cast iron comment. Ron ------- Re: Easy machining steel Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Jan 6, 2010 2:36 pm ((PST)) Hi Ron, I said it mainly because the high lead content of 12L14 makes it somewhat dirty to work with. I get very good finish on 1018 with conventional 2 flute HSS end mills. Your point about turning is well taken. Since 12L14 and cast iron are readily available in diameter bar stock, I use 1018 when I need plate -- have rarely turned it. Thanks for the clarification, DC ------- Tips on machining stainless steel. [LittleEngines] Posted by: "jshadle.geo" jshadle.geox~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 10:38 am ((PST)) I see that some engine plans call for a stainless steel piston. I've not machined stainless before, and I know that it can be mean. Any suggestions? John ------- Re: Tips on machining stainless steel. Posted by: "TOM FARAGHER" tfaragherx~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 11:34 am ((PST)) I recently machined some valves from stainless steel barstock and didn't find it to be difficult. I don't know what alloy it was because it came to me as scrap from a friend cleaning out his garage. The only thing I know about it is that it was non magnetic. It started out as 3/4 inch barstock and ended up as valves for a hit/miss internal combustion engine. I used HSS tool bits for the turning and the surface finish came out extremely smooth. Tom ------- Re: Tips on machining stainless steel. Posted by: "George" gbritnellx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 12:04 pm ((PST)) Use 303 stainless. It cuts real nice with high speed tooling. You just have to watch your speed. gbritnell ------- Re: Tips on machining stainless steel. Posted by: "brian carter" briankenyn2x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 12:25 pm ((PST)) John, I have had very limited recent experience in machining metal prior to two years ago [and 25 yrs before that], but have found that stainless is a tough, stringy metal that appears to like tools with a fair amount of back-rake and side-rake, say 10 -15 degs. My tools ground for aluminum also do a very decent job of turning SS, and the finish is fine if properly set to center. Hope that helps a little, Brian ------- Re: Tips on machining stainless steel. Posted by: "James W. Early" j.w.earlyx~xxworldnet.att.net Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 12:32 pm ((PST)) This is very true and why most people have trouble with stainless. As most off the shelf tools only have 3 to 5 degrees of rake in the cutter, most people blame themselves instead of the tool. Currently I do not have any tool with less than 10 degrees of front and both sides rake and so have few if any problems with most work and have come to feel that any tool with less than 10 degrees clearance is dull and needs to be correctly sharpened. This is also why I stopped using inserts some 10 years ago. JWE Long Beach, CA [and in a later message, some more tips] Very sharp tools with good brown high sulfur cutting oil that is used with threading machines to keep the material from getting hot. Most problems with cutting stainless come from using inserts with no oil which causes the material to harden in weird ways. I never use inserts on stainless because it just causes too many problems. JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Re: Tips on machining stainless steel. Posted by: "brian458666x~xx550access.com" Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 5:57 pm ((PST)) Quoting Walter Warfield : > One caveat regarding oil- if your bit is dull you'll be in more trouble with oil than without. Also, when stainless is called for I generally do not care for any of the 3- series and prefer 416, it's (IMO) easier to work and can be hardened easily. Air cool or liquid quench. My preferences were established in a very different area than this one, however. < Brian ------- Re: Tips on machining stainless steel. Posted by: "Corey Renner" vandal968x~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 6:17 pm ((PST)) JWE, have you tried any of the new very high rake carbide tools like the CCGT's? There is some good info on them about half-way down this page; I've heard good things about them from multiple sources. http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCLatheSurfaceFinish.html cheers, c ------- Re: Tips on machining stainless steel. Posted by: "James Early" j.w.earlyx~xxworldnet.att.net Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 6:36 pm ((PST)) Yes I have seen them and tried them on our Citizen CNC. Average tip life about 3 hours with full flood coolant. Average tip life between sharpening on the same machine for the cheap Enco brazed bit was between 48 and 72 hours. After the first go around we sharpened them every 40 hours of service for all 5 tools including the threading tool. The carbide end mills for the wrench flats usually lasted about 120 hours between sharpening after we found the right ones. We went through tooling from 20 different companies before settling on the cheap Enco ones finish ground in our shop. All inserts we tried were just plain too expensive because they are technically dull to begin with before you ever touch metal to them for work. JWE Long Beach, CA ------- Re: Tips on machining stainless steel. Posted by: "Aaron Pasteris" aarons_groupsx~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 8:45 pm ((PST)) I made some score pieces for a fooseball table from 304. Plenty of dark threading oil and a sharp tool that gets hit with the hone after every few passes. Aaron ------- Re: Tips on machining stainless steel. Posted by: "TOM FARAGHER" tfaragherx~xxverizon.net Date: Sat Jan 9, 2010 8:55 pm ((PST)) You will never cut your finger on an insert because the cutting edges are rounded. This results in a burnishing action which will leave a mirror finish if you have enough horsepower to plow through the material. Insert tooling is not appropriate for home machining because home shop machines typically do not have 20 to 50 horsepower to make them work efficiently. Tom ------- Re: Cast Iron [Min_Int_Comb_Eng] Posted by: "petertha" peterthax~xxshaw.ca Date: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:37 pm ((PST)) "Jack & Sylvia" wrote: > Thanks for the info Jack. I live in Canada and have not been able to get any Cast, unless I bought a 16 ft joint ordered in. I sent an e-mail to Speedymetals ordered 3--12" bars. they shipped today. I don't want to tell you the freight cost though, its more costly than the material. Nevertheless I got what I wanted. Great having this group thanks again Jack. < Sorry to hear you had to source it the expensive way. I asked this same question in another forum & 'durabar' was one of the favourite recommendations (among others). Here is their website, material specs, etc.: http://www.dura-bar.com/index.cfm Here is their distributer index; type in Canada, province etc in their dropdown & you should be able to find something close: http://www.dura-bar.com/distributors/index.cfm I found a few places in Edmonton & Calgary AB where I live that would provide smallish chunks. Some had a 50$ order min & cut charge, but at least the 'shipping' was only a couple bucks of my car's gas. pt ------- Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 16:08:47 +0000 From: William Edwards Subject: RE: [OldTools] Mushet Tool Steel Ray Gardiner wrote:[snip]Whatever became of Mushet tool steel? For anyone interested in such things, there is a fairly full account of the development of modern tool steels (including Mushet tool steel) in the late, great LTC Rolt's history of machine tools, "Tools for the Job". As always with Rolt, it is very readable - and he was a man who knew at first hand how the new alloy steels changed things: he had served an apprenticeship at Kerr, Stuart between the wars, which was sufficiently old-fashioned that he had regularly to take his carbon steel lathe tooling to the blacksmith to be re-tempered. Sadly, "Tools for the Job" is long out of print, but second-hand copies do crop up. Rolt's three-part autobiography has recently been re-printed and is also well worth a read. Regards, Bill Edwards ------- [MACHINING SILVER] 3480 Vertical Milling Column [sherline] Posted by: "Pete & Pam Boorum" smallifex~xxmyfairpoint.net Date: Sat Mar 6, 2010 6:02 am ((PST)) Hamilton asked about machining silver. My experience machining silver is limited to two classes with a silver smith. There are undoubtedly many others on this list who are more experienced in this area. Silver is gummy like copper and collapses easily with pressure on the lathe. You need to take light cuts with sharp HSS tools for a good result. As I recall, milling was a little less exciting than turning. My teacher liked three flute mills and sharpened all his lathe tools very thin and pointed. He used the cross slide on the Sherline, not gravers on a tool rest. Hope this helps, Pete Pam & Pete Boorum, Smaller Than Life IGMA Artisans 79 Sebbins Pond Drive, Bedford, NH 03110 http://www.smallerthanlife.com ------- Re: 3480 Vertical Milling Column Posted by: "Hamilton Elliott" helliottx~xxmicroflex.ie Date: Sat Mar 6, 2010 6:38 am ((PST)) Thanks Pete, I think that I'll stick to what I know. Tin-snips, a file and a hammer. And that reminds me I promised someone that I would take some photos of some of what I made. I'll put it on the urgent list. Regards, Hamilton ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:19:08 -0400 From: "Jim Shaw" Subject: [OldTools] Brass vs Bronze Galoots; Thinking about making replacement tool parts, metal parts for handmade wooden molding planes, split saw nuts, etc., I got to wondering which metal provides the best benefits: Brass or Bronze. Can anyone clue me in on the relative features of each metal and why brass seems to be the most popular metal? Thanks JimS ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:18:12 -0600 From: Ken Meltsner Subject: Re: [OldTools] Brass vs Bronze Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq. wrote: > the alloy of course. And in brass there's soft, half hard, > and hard brass. Choose wisely and well. Brass is cheaper -- typical brass is 30% zinc and it's the copper that drives the price up. Given the right alloys, it's also incredibly machinable, responds well to heat treatment, casts easily, can be brazed or welded, etc. Never worked much with the various bronzes, though. Ken Meltsner ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:37:11 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Brass vs Bronze Bronze holds up to salt water better. If you are planning to have your stuff sit at the bottom of the ocean, say, for 500 years ... heehehehe. Brass generally stays shinier longer. Bronze generally tarnishes faster. Other than that, both come rock hard, dead soft and lots of inbetween. Neither bends particularly well. Soft cartridge brass is probably best for cold forming. Beyond that there is the look. Red brass (bronze) can look stunning in the right circumstance. It takes more maintenance but on polishing day those red doorknobs will knock your eye clean out! I had them all over the house once upon a time. They sat there looking darkly mungy for years, until one day I finally broke down and polished them all. The look was so great I was then obliged to polish every 6 months from then on. Yellow brass can look like neon when high polished. It can be polished so bright it actually looks like platinum, for a little while. I like yellow brass with rosewood better. Rosewood already has enough red in it. I like bronze with maple, which needs a little red for contrast. 6 of one, half dozen of ... yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:18:23 -0400 From: Subject: Re: [OldTools] Brass vs Bronze Brass does not rust, but is still susceptible to some corrosion. The various Bronzes have higher strengths and more corrosion resistance. I think that brass is used because it is "good enough". Ed Minch ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 15:24:42 -0500 From: "R. Hutchins" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Brass vs Bronze And I'm ignorant enough to ask: How does one determine whether he has soft, half hard, or hard brass? Is there some comparative hardness scale like the one geologists use? ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:38:36 -0700 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Brass vs Bronze The metal monger will sell it to according to your preferences. How to tell if you just have a hunk of metal? Take a file to it. You'll know. Or try drilling and tapping it. Hard brass grabs like a sonufabich. Ya gotta take a little stone to your drill and put a flat on the lead edges. I had a little 6" mill fine file in my tool box (still have it) which I used to test hardness. I could tell you exactly what RC or Brinnell a piece of metal was with nothing more than a slight touch of the file. I could peg the RC scale within a point with that little file. ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:51:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] Brass vs Bronze Jim: One of the main differences for making or restoring tools is that bronze patinates well, tarnishing into a deep, luxurious brown, while tarnished brass just looks dirty and grungy. If you don't plan to spend a lot of time polishing this might be significant. Brass is basically a copper-zinc alloy, bronze without qualification is basically copper-tin. There's a huge variety of variations on both, a lot of overlap, and frequently you can't tell which you have (unless you have a lot more experience than I do). For most uses it doesn't matter a lot which you are using, both will have similar advantages and disadvantages. Once in a while it matters a lot. I've made bookbinders' finishing tools out of both, and for the light use that I give them the difference doesn't matter a bit. I only do finishing (gold tooling for decoration or titles) once in a while, and the tools I make are pretty simple. On the other hand, in the 19th century when finishing was a full-time specialty and many finishing tools were elaborate (i.e. costly) and heavily used at incredible speeds, and the difference did matter. High- grade makers advertised their tools as being made of phospher bronze or of bell metal, both hard alloys that would resist wear well. I have been told that marine bronze heats up quickly and cools slowly, desirable in a tool used hot, but I have never been able to confirm this (and I don't see how it could do both, but either one would be helpful). As a tendency, bronze is much more expensive than brass (last time I looked, about 2-1/2 times the price); bronze is harder and stronger, much less malleable, slightly harder to file. Some bronzes (bellmetal, in particular) are very hard but brittle. It hasn't mattered a lot to me; I've mostly used scrap from stuff that had been thrown away. Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:36:52 -0700 From: Graham Hughes Subject: Re: [OldTools] Brass vs Bronze Not a metalworker but I'd like to chime in here by noting that bronze work hardens fairly quickly and is and was in some varieties useful as a substitute for tool steel. So if you whack at it enough it will stop behaving and need to be annealed again (a principal danger, I think, during the process of making dovetailed infills). Graham Hughes ------- NOTE TO FILE: The reference above to dovetailed infills is during the making of a certain type of metal-bodied woodworking hand plane. The plane's metal sides and bottom plate are dovetailed, and after assembly the dovetails are peened (hammered) until they are tight together, and then filed flat and polished. In the process, the dovetails virtually disappear. Such a plane then has wood blocks (usually from exotic wood) fitted to and inserted within the metal body -- hence infill plane. ------- Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:15:06 -0700 (PDT) From: jim b Subject: [OldTools] Brass vs Bronze watch out for lead Having worked with a bit of brass/bronze for various applications... Much of modern brass contains 3% lead; this apparently makes it easier to machine, I am told. However it work hardens quickly so more annealing is needed. Some old brass is lead free, so in short you need to know what the brass/bronze actually contains. If you want seriously hard Bronze/Brass looking material, go for phosperous bronze sometimes call Phosperous brass. It's available from jewellery supply houses, comes in granules, melts easily, is tough to finish, and bloody hard. Jim In sunny OZ ------- Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:20:01 -0700 From: Graham Hughes Subject: Re: [OldTools] Brass vs Bronze watch out for lead I'm told that if you're going to cast bronze you need to be careful to make sure it the little granules don't have any zinc in them (casts fine but gives off nasty gasses). Having worked both a little bit I have no doubt in my mind that the old manufacturers used brass because it behaved, was cheap and was easy to work. Graham Hughes ------- Metal Stuff [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:49 am ((PDT)) As a retired old coot with experience in metals I might add. Our good venders would bring a book of metals that had tables of machineability, heat treat, grinding, and relative cost. Also what tooling, what speed, what grinding media, and heat tread, oil, water, air hardening etc. There are as many metals as opinions. The range is huge in machinability. It is NOT intuitive. Hard is not hard to machine, and soft not easy all the time. Cheap is often not strong and not easy to machine. Like shafts in toys, lawn equipment, and farm equipment. These things should stay in the yard. Hardness is a good clue when all else fails. Very soft is hard to machine. Very hard is difficult also. Soft aluminum is a pain while hard aluminum is nice (6061-T6). Brass is not always brass. Ampco-8 looks like brass but is hard to cut. Simple hardness test. Screw driver, HHS tool bit, Carbide bit. Scratch with each and look at the scratch. Another is a well ground center punch and a light blow from a small hammer, then compare the size of the divot with a know material. For very soft material use a small ball bearing. And for the really delicate work, they have free machining steels. Extra cost but having turned it, amazing. Happy turning. chart ------- Re: Metal Stuff Posted by: "Soapman54x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:54 pm ((PDT)) Just a little contribution to hardness testing. When I was a toolmaker I used what was called a file test. Files being a known hardness, if a file cuts or how much it cuts a given material you can pretty much judge how hard a material is. Bill ------- Quality of metal [barstockengines] Posted by: "Andrew" akayton1x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 3:51 pm ((PDT)) Several months back I attempted a "Eggcup Stirling Engine" by Jan Ridders. The engine would not run well and needed lots of heat and oil to get running. I did a lot of remeasuring of parts and all seemed to be within .05 mm or better. The power piston was a problem as it required oil to run. This turned out to be too tight a fit. I made 2 of these engines and both had the same failure when the support columns suddenly came out. It turns out that the quality of the top plate which holds the columns was poor. Since I remade the engine with better quality aluminum it runs better and does not need constant adjusting. I hope this helps others in their builds. Cheers, Andrew ------- Re: Quality of metal Posted by: "russx~xxtheoldwindmill.net" russell_hiscock Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 5:22 pm ((PDT)) G'day Andrew. What do you mean by 'better quality aluminium'? Was it a harder alloy, or more pure, or...? How can I tell if I have better quality (at least, good enough? ) metal? Thanks, russell ------- Re: Quality of metal Posted by: "Andrew Kayton" akayton1x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun Apr 4, 2010 6:35 pm ((PDT)) Russell, I got the first lot of aluminium from the scrap metal dealer (Challenge Metals in Bayswater). As it was scrap there was no information on the quality. When turning the metal is was a little gummy and would build up on the cutting tool regardless of speed, feed rate or coolant. The second lot was off-cuts from One Aluminium also in Bayswater. I asked for off-cuts for turning and they selected suitable pieces for me. When cutting the good stuff the swarf comes of cleaner and there is little if any build up on the cutting tool. In fact I made a mistake and had my cutting tools for brass in the lathe and it still worked well. I hope that helps. Cheers, Andrew ------- Re: Quality of metal Posted by: "Doc" doc0455x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 6:55 pm ((PDT)) It sounds like you may have gotten aluminum tooling plate. The stuff machines terrible and won't conduct heat as well as any of the better alloy aluminum's. Tooling plate is pressed aluminum; you can actually break it and the edge will look like cast iron -- real grainy. Doc ------- Re: Quality of metal Posted by: "Mike Payson" mikex~xxdawgdayz.com Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 8:18 pm ((PDT)) Just like Steel, there are hundreds of aluminum alloys. Some machine well, some machine horribly. It's always best to stick with a known alloy unless you have absolutely no choice. 6061 is a good choice for machining, as is 2011, 7075 and several others. Each alloy has disadvantages as well, so choose the alloy with some care. Here's one guide that covers the key strengths and weaknesses of a few common alloys: http://www.onlinemetals.com/aluminumguide.cfm They only list the alloys that they sell, but it will give you an idea of what's available. A bit of Googling should help you find more information. And FYI, the aluminum sold by hardware stores such as Home Depot is mystery metal, and should not be used for machining if you have any choice. It's way overpriced anyway, so there really is absolutely no reason to use it if you can possibly avoid it. ------- Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 01:34:29 -0500 From: John Junkroski Subject: [OldTools] Re: Brass vs bronze For the past year or two I've been casting brass and bronze tools... hammer heads and plane bodies mostly. Brass is copper and zinc and other metals. Bronze is copper and tin and other metals. They are very different animals. I began by buying jewelers grade "ancient bronze" casting bead for well over $12 a pound. Then I visited the folks at my local scrap yard and found all sorts of brass and bronze industrial scrap for 1/3 that price or less. There are dozens (hundreds?) of industrial grades of alloys of both brass and bronze. Some alloys have better casting properties, others have more corrosion resistance, others machine more easily, and so forth. My first surprise was in the difference between brass and bronze in hardness. Filing bronze is a nasty endless job. The stuff is HARD! My second surprise was learning that "gun metal" refers to the bronze alloy used to make the cannons on historical warships. Never knew that. Another bronze alloy is bell metal. I also tried melting down coins. You can buy obsolete foreign coins by the pound, and they are mostly bronze, copper nickel, or coated steel. The steel coins can be separated with a magnet. I tried to separate the others using a coin-collectors website that listed the alloy for each coin. I melted and cast some of the bronze coins with good results, a very clean shiny golden casting. But it was no bargain compared to the scrap yard. The copper-nickel coins will not melt in my furnace... not hot enough. If you want something that will last for millennia and beyond... use a corrosion resistant bronze alloy. The Sumerians knew this. If you want a pretty, easy to cast and machine object, collect old plumbing valves at garage sales, bust them up with an eight pound hammer, remove plastic, die-cast (zinc) handles, and other junk before melting. Don't breathe the fumes. Check with your insurance rep. Old Tool content, I cast half a dozen bodies for fancy router planes and other bronze planes, modeled after museum photos of 16th -18th Century tools. John ------- [Topic is about milling slots in titanium.] milling slots [myfordlathes] Posted by: "capnahab" nick_phillipsx~xxbtconnect.com Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:54 pm ((PDT)) I am trying to mill slots in titanium like these: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4114/4825727661_f7c11b442f_b.jpg I have tried my quick step mill attached to the Myford. I used an end mill at 4000 rpm. It sort of worked but had a bit of a climb problem and left some unattractive burrs on one side. I tried a slitting saw in the quick step and this seemed to work a bit better: http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4117/4815653365_bb11d14629_b.jpg The machining marks on the item I showed in picture one above look like it has been done with a ?saw. I have only tried on about half scale so far. The slots are 4 mm width and I think I need a fairly robust saw - can you get 4 mm carbide slitting saws? What about the Sandvik indexable type? The item shown looks to have been done CNC. Not sure my tackle (Myford and quickstep) is up to it. Anybody know who would do it CNC for me without wanting my right arm or a kidney. Think I am losing perspective. ------- Re: milling slots Posted by: "ian_new" ian_newx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Jul 26, 2010 9:59 pm ((PDT)) Hi. Why are you milling this? Wouldn't it be easier to use a parting tool? On the topic of cutting titanium, it is similar in strength to steel (but with a low Young's Modulus and at less than half the weight) so if you approach the job as if it were a piece of stainless steel rather than a piece of aluminium you will have good results. It has low thermal conductivity so benefits from using flood cooling. You must keep tools sharp and take care that tools cut and don't rub - this will help prevent galling in flutes and chips welding to the cutting edge causing BUE problems (also, work hardening is an issue). It cuts equally well with HSS or carbide tooling (C1 - C4 grades are supposed to be best but I have no experience of this). Having said this, the failure mode of the cutting edge tends to be in chipping and as carbide tools are more prone to this they are usually less satisfactory than HSS. It tends to be 'gummy' in the same way as aluminium so care is needed when taking interrupted cuts (i.e. when milling). It is best to use down cutting (or climb milling) so the exit of the cut is on the thinning edge of the chip which encourages the chip to break free rather than stick to the cutting edge. Of course there are lots of different Ti alloys so the above comments might not be appropriate for the particular alloy you are using. Ian ------- Re: milling slots Posted by: "capnahab" nick_phillipsx~xxbtconnect.com Date: Tue Jul 27, 2010 10:20 am ((PDT)) I am milling it because I need a flat through which the cable and switch go at either side 180 to eachother. You are right turning it would be a doddle. May think of an alternative to the flat. Thanks for the info on tooling. ------- reducing diameter of copper [taigtools] Posted by: "Steve Vanderkolff" srvx~xxwightman.ca Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 1:14 pm ((PDT)) I need to take a piece of 1/4" copper rod and reduce it to .080 diameter roughly 1" long. I have been putting the 1/4" rod into a collet with 1 1/2" sticking out, then attempting to use a carbide tipped tool to reduce the diameter. It usually works well until I get to less than .100" then the copper bends. Obviously I am not technical at this but can anyone help me. Thank You Steve Vanderkolff Please visit me at www.vanderkolffknives.com ------- Re: reducing diameter of copper Posted by: "greg.mcfadden" greg.mcfaddenx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 1:18 pm ((PDT)) Reduce a small section to .080 by starting at the tip. Then do the next small section. Another thing you probably could use is a center to support the cantilevered end. ------- Re: reducing diameter of copper Posted by: "Jeff Demand" jdemandx~xxgmavt.net Date: Thu Aug 5, 2010 2:05 pm ((PDT)) Steve's advice is the proper (only ?) way to do this. Bear in mind that copper is a real bitch to machine, don't even try at home with less than full hard copper. HSS tools are also a good idea, you can grind funny angles. (Not much copper here, but silver is almost as nasty :-) jeffD ------- NOTE TO FILE: A conversation in atlas618lathe started Sep 3, 2010 with the subject "spindle" and drifted into "spindle drawing" with various folks using either message title; so they are gathered together in the file here called "Bearings and Bushings" (which also includes spindles). There are also some good tips about different steel alloys and their suitability for making a spindle or similar part. ------- [taigtools] What kind of "steel" is the stuff they sell at Lowe's and Home Depot Posted by: "Steve F" ddi92234x~xxaol.com Date: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:23 pm ((PDT)) I'm having one heck of a time trying to cut this stuff. Using freshly ground tools, cutting fluid and VERY small cuts and this stuff chatters and pits something terrible. Is it hot rolled and too hard for HSS tools or ? Any help would be appreciated! Steve ------- Re: What kind of "steel" is the stuff they sell at Lowe's and Home D Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:25 pm ((PDT)) Usually it's 1018 Cold Rolled or variant, but of very low quality (high scrap content). Avoid if at all possible. ------- Re: What kind of "steel" is the stuff they sell at Lowe's and Home D Posted by: "Andy Trivette" trivettex~xxcharter.net Date: Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:48 pm ((PDT)) Sounds like hot rolled; does it have a black type scale on the outside? Cold Rolled Steel is easy to work with (CRS). Andy ------- Re: What kind of "steel" is the stuff they sell at Lowe's and Home D Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Sep 14, 2010 3:37 pm ((PDT)) Really, if it's 1018, it's 1018. Those numbers are a recipe. The stuff they sell at home improvement places are some pretty terrible junk. What I've seen, (and bought) is much like common A36 hot rolled, but it has a shiny finish that looks much like some kind of zinc plate. It's not 1018. Dean ------- Re: What kind of "steel" is the stuff they sell at Lowe's and Home D Posted by: "Jack" tech.writerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:54 pm ((PDT)) I was tempted to buy that stuff several times, but lack of any info regarding content put me off. I eventually bought what I needed from Enco, and I'm glad I did. You might consider a small purchase to see if you like it better. ------- Re: What kind of "steel" is the stuff they sell at Lowe's and Home D Posted by: "Steve F" ddi92234x~xxaol.com Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 12:09 am ((PDT)) Rather than beating my lathe to death trying to work this material I went ahead and ordered some 12L14 from onlinemetals.com. I should get it sometime in the next few days and I'll try my newly ground tools to compare it with the "unknown" steel. I read the info on other steel mentioned and it sure isn't "free machining" in the form it is from the hardware stores. I guess that's one of the problems living in a non-industrial area - no sources of supply to visit and see the stuff in person. Steve ------- Re: What kind of "steel" is the stuff they sell at Lowe's and Home D Posted by: "Steve F" ddi92234x~xxaol.com Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:43 am ((PDT)) "Lewis hein" wrote: > What do those numbers mean? I think the first one is related to > the carbon content of the steel but what do the others mean? The stuff I'm getting is marked :SteelWorks G11, WELD STL - RND (HR)" or "WELD STL - (CR). Which I take to mean "hot rolled" and "corrosion resisting". No other markings indicating content of the steel. Steve [later message] OK, finally I can work with it. I got some carbide tipped tools from anytime tools and cut a piece of the HR steel. OK at the 3rd speed on the lathe but really pretty good at the HIGHEST speed. I'll have to compare the 12L14 and this steel once I get my shipment from onlinemetals, but this cheapy steel might work for some things, at least to do a cleaning pass and then cut down so I can thread it. ------- Re: What kind of "steel" is the stuff they sell at Lowe's and Home D Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:26 pm ((PDT)) > What do those numbers mean? The first number is not the carbon content. The first two numbers are an alloy code. The last two numbers are the carbon content in hundredths of a per cent. For 1018 steel, the "10" is for the metal alloy. Iron, chromium, and etc. The "18" is for the carbon percentage, as in 18/100 of one percent carbon content. Dean ------- Truth in Advertising [taigtools] Posted by: "Jack" tech.writerx~xxearthlink.net noisillator Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:32 pm ((PDT)) This raises a question I've been meaning to ask for a while. Much of the aluminum stock I've been buying on eBay seems really soft. It's mostly supposed to be 6061, but I'm starting to have doubts about it. Is there a good way to test for this at home? I was thinking about buying a piece of 6061 from a reliable source, say Enco or Mcmaster-Carr, just to see if it will scratch the other stuff. Would that be a reliable test? ------- Re: Truth in Advertising Posted by: "Richard Hutchinson" richlee2029x~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:54 pm ((PDT)) Probably not. Most of what i can get here is the harder 6061-T6 in sheet form. But the tubing is usually 6061-T3. If yours seems pretty soft it might be untreated 6060-T0. There are various treatments: cold worked (usually rolling), artificially aged (no idea), solution heat treated (hot chemicals), and others that effect the strength and machineability of the same alloy mix. Unless you know the treatment of your pieces. ------- Re: Truth in Advertising Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:19 pm ((PDT)) Note that annealing and work hardening many alloys changes their hardness without affecting their chemical composition. You can cut a brass bar in half, hammer on one piece of it until it hardens, then use it to cut the other piece. As I recall 6061 aluminum hardens as it ages, so freshly cast or extruded 6061 is much softer than stuff that has been left to age a few months. There is a tempering process that artificially ages the metal using heat and pressure, producing 6061-y4 and T6 for example. ------- Re: Truth in Advertising Posted by: "lhbakeland" digitaltorquex~xxaol.com Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:54 am ((PDT)) Richard Hutchinson wrote: > 50xx - Aluminum alloy > 5052 = used in making fuel tanks, also used in medium pressure > hydraulic and fuel tubing . > > 60xx - strongest of the non hardening grades of aluminum alloys. > 6061 = available in sheet, tube, square, angle and bar stock. > Most commercial aluminum fron hardware stores is usually 6061. > 6063 = Available in channel, maybe other forms > > 70xx - aluminum, mostly billets for machining. > 7070 > 7075 - used for high stress, high strength parts, also sheet usually > coated. note - does not play well with machine tools. lol I am at odds with Spruce on the machinability of 7075. I use a lot of it and machine it a lot. The stuff is harder than 6061 and is about as strong as 1018 steel and provides a nice finish. The firearms industry has really embraced the stuff for their receiver frames. The M16 has used it for their receivers for years. It does cost 2-3 times as much as 6061, but labor cost far exceeds the difference. For small parts that need to be as strong as steel, it is my material of choice. My thoughts, Leo ------- Re: Truth in Advertising Posted by: "walnotr" walnotrx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:26 pm ((PDT)) Richard Hutchinson wrote: > Hmm, it seems I got the T designations on the local stuff backwards. > The sheets, (FOURNEY STEEL CENTER), here are hard and real strong. > Measure twice or even 3-times then bend it. There is sheet aluminum with different tempers. 7075-T6 is the first to come to mind. 2024-T86 is another. Both are much stronger than 2024-T3 and require larger bend radii to avoid cracking. A google search for bend allowance charts should give you information you may need. At least if you intend to bend it! Steve C. ------- Re: Truth in Advertising Posted by: "Jack" tech.writerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:29 am ((PDT)) I wasn't aware of the benefits of 7075 until just recently. In retrospect, I wish I had used that for the exterior panels and trim pieces of the items I'm building. The 6061 is so susceptible to fine scratches, even during careful handling, sometimes I don't even know how it happens. I know it's a long shot, but is there an easy means of heat treating at home? I'm still thinking about setting up a small anodizing system in the garage, but an interim solution would be useful. ------- Re: Truth in Advertising Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:22 am ((PDT)) I use 7075 exclusively for my combat robots, and the increased strength, stiffness, and machinablility are absolutely worth the increased cost. I purchase a lot of my material as drops and off-cuts through Yarde Metals online. http://www.yarde.com/cgi-bin/dropzone.pl It is all certified stock which is nice. ------- Re: Truth in Advertising Posted by: "Jeff Demand" jdemandx~xxgmavt.net Date: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:07 pm ((PDT)) I have a stash of 6061 and a bit of 7075. The next order will only include 7075. The 6061 is OK for tests and trials. The better alloy takes more work to machine but produces better results. I am used to metals requiring a bit of work and thought to machine. Real butter is in the kitchen fridge if I need it for toast. jeffD ------- Re: Truth in Advertising Posted by: "walnotr" walnotrx~xxhotmail.com Date: Sat Sep 18, 2010 1:23 pm ((PDT)) The "T" designator on aluminum denotes the type of heat treatment. Most common types are -T3 and -T6. -T3 is solution heat treated and then cold worked, you will only see it in sheet form. T-6 is solution heat treated and artificially aged. In the field, 2024-0 (annealed) can only be brought to a -T4 temper which is solution heat treated and naturally aged. After heat treatment the material will continue to harden over a period of 4 days until it reaches it's full T-4 hardness. When aluminum is artificially aged, it is returned to a lower temperature oven and allowed to soak for a specified time. The result is a part that is in the -T6 condition. Industrial settings will use a molten salt bath to do the solution heat treat. It provides a large mass at a constant temperature to keep the aluminum in the precise "solid solution" for proper grain formation. This can also be done in a hot air furnace. Once the aluminum has remained in the heat treating environment for the specified time, it is rapidly quenched in cold water to stabilize the grain structure. It is now in the -W condition and on it's way to -T4 or another -T designation. This is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to heat treating aluminum. There are may other designations denoting different processes. As far as DYI heat treatment, it can be done but you would need an oven capable of maintaining 930F-950F for long enough to fully heat a part and hold it there and a large quench tank. It is much easier to buy material in the required temper! Steve C. ------- Re: Truth in Advertising Posted by: "walnotr" walnotrx~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:41 am ((PDT)) Will Schmit wrote: > I might be talking out my hindside, but I have always reckoned the higher the "T", the more rigid. No stronger, just will break at a certain number vs bending at that same number. Rigid equals brittle at the point of failure. < As a rule of thumb you are correct but not in every case. 2024-T3 has a slightly higher tensile and yield strength than 2024-T4. I believe cold working will generally give higher numbers. Alloy type will also be a factor. 2024-T3 has a yield factor of 45 ksi while 6061-T6 is down to 40 ksi. For the majority of what the average hobbyist does, none of this really matters. We are not building rocket ships or submarines or (hopefully) life critical equipment. What machines well is generally what is needed. Steve C. ------- 7075 [was Truth in Advertising] [taigtools] Posted by: "mrehmus" editorx~xxmodelenginebuilder.com Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:36 am ((PDT)) While 7075 is a great alloy, it does have one major problem. Its strength rapidly degrades with temperature. That is why you will not see it used for cylinder heads or any other hot application. 2024, which machines just as good as 7074, is the preferred alloy for heads, etc. Airliners use 7075 for landing gear and 2024 for any parts that might get heated. IIRC, you cannot weld 7075 and you can weld 6061. Use a good cutting fluid with 6061 and it will cut OK, not great but OK. ------- Re: 7075 Posted by: "lhbakeland" digitaltorquex~xxaol.com Date: Fri Sep 17, 2010 1:21 pm ((PDT)) 7075 is great for clamps and holding fixtures like t-slot nuts and clamps. It is as strong as the steel ones. The hreads are less likely to wear than those made of 6061, and they do not ding or damage fine surfaces when dropped due to their light weight. Especially, in the Taig mill, it is less likely than steel to ding the tops of the "T" slots than the steel ones. These tools will not need to be welded and will never be subject to much heat. Here are some of the Taig T-slot nuts that I have made and used; http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq28/LBakeland/taigmilltnut.jpg http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq28/LBakeland/taigmilltnut2.jpg The second set has both M6 metric and 10-32 threads. I just love using these T-slot nuts. After you've used them, you'll never go back to the steel ones or those little "slab" ones that came with the Taig mill. My thoughts, Leo ------- Re: Atlas Craftsman Lathe tools and upgrades [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "c_h_a_r_t_n_y" mgibsonx~xxstny.rr.com Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:51 am ((PST)) Re to Doc: " I am resorting to the local junk yard for scrap.." I have used scrap shafts and such for many years. I have found that manufactured parts often use high quality easy to machine steel. If a part has a lot of machining, they usually use high quality steel to reduce machining cost. I have as an example a 5/8" shaft from an old washing machine. It has a spline on both ends, tapped hole, cross drilled hole, snap ring grove, etc. It must be leaded steel as it cuts very easy, polishes up great, taps easily, etc. I also have a couple of shafts with some acme threads on one end and splines on the other end. They are also easy to cut. I also have a ¾" shaft from a squirrel cage blower where the pulley came loose and ruined one end. It is straight and exact in size. And on the flip side, you find junky steel. I have worked with machine design people back in the day. It is not uncommon for a part to have 1% of the cost in material. In the cost balance, material cost often goes to quality metal vs machining cost. chart ------- Re: Atlas Craftsman Lathe tools and upgrades Posted by: "carvel webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:04 am ((PST)) A good tip passed onto me years ago, was to take a small file with you when you go to raid the junkyard. When you find a likely looking piece of "stuff", see whether the file will 'bite' - it will give you a good idea if it is hardened or machinable. Good luck scrounging, Carvel ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is an interesting discussion in the Lathes section here in the file called "Collets For Lathe or Mill" about suitable steel for making a collet holder. The conversation is oriented towards making a collet holder but has some tips that may be useful for other projects, including a cheap source of quality steel. See that file starting 18 August 2011 with subject "Steel choice for making colett holder". [Yes "colett" was misspelled in the original poster's subject line, and that misspelling was repeated in the subject of all follow-up messages. Sometimes such misspellings defeat your search engine when you use the correct spelling and look for information on a particular subject.] ------- Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 19:58:22 -0700 From: Kirk Eppler Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hi, my name is Bill and I'm a hardware junkie On Oct 17, 2011, Bill Taggart wrote: > One word: magnet. To my surprise, I have found the magnet actually works with most "stainless steel" and "brass" items as well. Seems that there are varying degrees of "stainless" - I found a few screws yesterday that were totally non-magnetic, while other stainless is mildly magnetic. And also seems that a lot of the "brass" screws actually are either just "brass colored" or "brass plated" or some kind of alloy, because a surprising number of them responded to the magnet. < Working in a place were we use A LOT of stainless steel, here is what I know. Non Magnetic SS = great for keeping clean, lousy for strength (eg 316L). Used closest to the product. Kinda Magnetic SS = better for strength, lousy for keeping clean, rusts easier (400 series). Used for SS seismically acceptable leveling legs, fasteners, etc. SS patio heater cheap = pure dreck, not strong, not rust resistant, not worth the money. Used to blow over and break in a high wind, then develop a rust patina before the replacement parts can be bought at 2/3 the cost of new SS patio heater. I no longer have a patio heater. Spent the money on a blanket or three. The kinda magnetic stuff will show up with a super magnet (rare earth, neo dynium (sp?)), a regular magnet may not show it. I annoyed a lot of contractors by using my super magnet on their SS hardware, telling them it wasn't. Then I got edumacated, and quit doing that. A little more factual information here http://www.mcfeelys.com/shop/stainless-steel technical data here http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=1 And I work with people who actually can intelligently discuss the differences, and what to use where. Around my house, I use whatever I can find, and hope it keeps the rust away. Kirk in HMB, near that large rust causing heat sink known as the Pacific Ocean ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message quotes data about various aluminum alloys and their characteristics. The sender found the info on the Mill/Drill group but someone there apparently had copied it from the following website that has even more useful information: http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/mepages/aluminfo.php ------- Aluminum Info - Lots of it !!!! [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Dallas Richardson" classicpointsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:05 am ((PST)) Here is a lot of information on aluminum Dallas IMAX 1340 Found this on a Mill/Drill group and felt it would be good to share here with this group. ........... 1100 This grade is commercially pure aluminum. It is soft and ductile and has excellent workability. It is ideal for applications involving intricate forming because it work hardens more slowly than other alloys. It is the most weldable of aluminum alloys, by any method. It is non heat- treatable. It has excellent resistance to corrosion and is widely used in the chemical and food processing industries. It responds well to decorative finishes which make it suitable for giftware. 2011 This is the most free-machining of the common aluminum alloys. It also has excellent mechanical properties. Thus, it is widely used for automatic screw machine products in parts requiring extensive machining. 2014 & 2017 The 2017 alloy combines excellent machinability and high strength with the result that it is one of the most widely used alloys for automatic screw machine work. It is a tough, ductile alloy suitable for heavy-duty structural parts. Its strength is slightly less than that of 2014. 2024 This is one of the best known of the high strength aluminum alloys. With its high strength and excellent fatigue resistance, it is used to advantage on structures and parts where good strength-to-weight ratio is desired. It is readily machined to a high finish. It is readily formed in the annealed condition and may be subsequently heat treated. Arc or gas welding is generally not recommended, although this alloy may be spot, seam or flash welded. Since corrosion resistance is relatively low, 2024 is commonly used with an anodized finish or in clad form ("Alclad") with a thin surface layer of high purity aluminum. Applications: aircraft structural components, aircraft fittings, hardware, truck wheels and parts for the transportation industry. 3003 This is the most widely used of all aluminum alloys. It is essentially commercially pure aluminum with the addition of manganese which increases the strength some 20% over the 1100 grade. Thus, it has all the excellent characteristics of 1100 with higher strength. It has excellent corrosion resistance. It has excellent workability and it may be deep drawn or spun, welded or brazed. It is non heat treatable. Applications: cooking utensils, decorative trim, awnings, siding, storage tanks, chemical equipment. 5005 This alloy is generally considered to be an improved version of 3003. It has the same general mechanical properties as 3003 but appears to stand up better in actual service. It is readily workable. It can be deep drawn or spun, welded or brazed. It has excellent corrosion resistance. It is non heat-treatable. It is well suited for anodizing and has less tendency to streak or discolor. Applications same as 3003. 5052 This is the highest strength alloy of the more common non heat-treatable grades. Fatigue strength is higher than most aluminum alloys. In addition this grade has particularly good resistance to marine atmosphere and salt water corrosion. It has excellent workability. It may be drawn or formed into intricate shapes and its slightly greater strength in the annealed condition minimizes tearing that occurs in 1100 and 3003. Applications: Used in a wide variety of applications from aircraft components to home appliances, marine and transportation industry parts, heavy duty cooking utensils and equipment for bulk processing of food. 5083 & 5086 For many years there has been a need for aluminum sheet and plate alloys that would offer, for high strength welded applications, several distinct benefits over such alloys as 5052 and 6061. Some of the benefits fabricators have been seeking are greater design efficiency, better welding characteristics, good forming properties, excellent resistance to corrosion and the same economy as in other non heat-treatable alloys. Metallurgical research has developed 5083 and 5086 as superior weldable alloys which fill these needs. Both alloys have virtually the same characteristics with 5083 having slightly higher mechanical properties due to the increased manganese content over 5086. Applications: unfired pressure vessels, missile containers, heavy-duty truck and trailer assemblies, boat hulls and superstructures. 6061 This is the least expensive and most versatile of the heat-treatable aluminum alloys. It has most of the good qualities of aluminum. It offers a range of good mechanical properties and good corrosion resistance. It can be fabricated by most of the commonly used techniques. In the annealed condition it has good workability. In the T4 condition fairly severe forming operations may be accomplished. The full T6 properties may be obtained by artificial aging. It is welded by all methods and can be furnace brazed. It is available in the clad form ("Alclad") with a thin surface layer of high purity aluminum to improve both appearance and corrosion resistance. Applications: This grade is used for a wide variety of products and applications from truck bodies and frames to screw machine parts and structural components. 6061 is used where appearance and better corrosion resistance with good strength are required. 6063 This grade is commonly referred to as the architectural alloy. It was developed as an extrusion alloy with relatively high tensile properties, excellent finishing characteristics and a high degree of resistance to corrosion. This alloy is most often found in various interior and exterior architectural applications, such as windows, doors, store fronts and assorted trim items. It is the alloy best suited for anodizing applications - either plain or in a variety of colors. 7075 This is one of the highest strength aluminum alloys available. Its strength-to weight ratio is excellent and it is ideally used for highly stressed parts. It may be formed in the annealed condition and subsequently heat treated. Spot or flash welding can be used, although arc and gas welding are not recommended. It is available in the clad ("Alclad") form to improve the corrosion resistance with the over-all high strength being only moderately affected. Applications: Used where highest strength is needed. ALUMINUM ALLOY DESIGNATIONS The aluminum industry uses a four-digit index system for the designation of its wrought aluminum alloys. As outlined below, the first digit indicates the alloy group according to the major alloying elements. 1xxx Series In this group. minimum aluminum content is 99%. and there is no major alloying element. The second digit indicates modifications in impurity limits. If the second digit is zero, there is no special control on individual impurities. Digits 1 through 9, which are assigned consecutively as needed, indicate special control of one or more individual impurities. The last two digits indicate specific minimum aluminum content. Although the absolute minimum aluminum content in this group is 99% the minimum for certain grades is higher than 99%, and the last two digits represent the hundredths of a per cent over 99. Thus, 1030 would indicate 99.30% minimum aluminum. without special control on individual impurities. The designations 1130, 1230, 1330, etc. indicate the same purity with special control on one or more impurities. Likewise. 1100 indicates minimum aluminum content of 99.00% with individual impurity control. 2xxx through 9xxx Series The major alloying elements are indicated by the first digit, as follows: 2xxx Copper 3xxx Manganese 4xxx Silicon 5xxx Magnesium 6xxx Magnesium and silicon 7xxx Zinc 8xxx Other element 9xxx Unused series The second digit indicates alloy modification. If the second digit is zero. it indicates the original alloy: digits 1 through 9, which are assigned consecutively, indicate alloy modifications. The last two digits have no special significance, serving only to identify the different alloys in the group. Experimental Alloys Experimental alloys are designated according to the four digit system, but they are prefixed by the letter X. The prefix is dropped when the alloy becomes standard. During development, and before they are designated as experimental, new alloys are identified by serial numbers assigned by their originators. Use of the serial number is discontinued when the X number is assigned. ALUMINUM TEMPER DESIGNATIONS Temper designations of wrought aluminum alloys consist of suffixes to the numeric alloy designations. For example, in 3003-H14, 3003 denotes the alloy and "H14" denotes the temper, or degree of hardness. The temper designation also reveals the method by which the hardness was obtained. Temper designations differ between non heat-treatable alloys and heat-treatable alloys. and their meanings are given below: Non Heat-Treatable Alloys The letter "H" is always followed by 2 or 3 digits. The first digit indicates the particular method used to obtain the temper. as follows: — Hl means strain hardened only. — H2 means strain hardened, then partially annealed. — H3 means strain hardened, then stabilized. The temper is indicated by the second digit as follows: 2 1/4 hard 4 1/2 hard 6 3/4 hard 8 full hard 9 extra hard Added digits indicate modification of standard practice. Heat-Treatable Alloys -F As fabricated -O Annealed -T Heat treated The letter "T" is always followed by one or more digits. These digits indicate the method used to produce the stable tempers, as follows: T3 Solution heat treated, then cold worked. -T351 Solution heat treated, stress-relieved stretched, then cold worked. -T36 Solution heat treated, then cold worked (controlled) . -T4 Solution heat treated, then naturally aged. -T451 Solution heat treated, then stress relieved stretched. -T5 Artificially aged only. -T6 Solution heat treated, then artificially aged. -T61 Solution heat treated (boiling water quench), then artificially aged. -T651 Solution heat treated, stress-relieved stretched, then artificially aged (precipitation heat treatment). -T652 Solution heat treated, stress relieved by compression. then artificially aged. -T7 Solution heat treated, then stabilized. -T8 Solution heat treated, cold worked, then artificially aged. -T81 Solution heat treated, cold worked (controlled) , then artificially aged. -T851 Solution heat treated, cold worked, stress-relieved stretched, then artificially aged. -T9 Solution heat treated, artificially aged, then cold worked. -T10 Artificially aged, then cold worked. Added digits indicate modification of standard practice. COMPARISON OF MODERN & OLD SYSTEMS OF ALUMINUM ALLOY DESIGNATION Although the old system of aluminum identification has been obsolete for many years, stock with the old markings is still occasionally found. The following comparison is presented as an aid in identifying such materials in terms of the modern system. In the old system, alloy composition was indicated by a one- or two-digit number followed by the letter "S" to indicate that it was a wrought alloy, i.e., an alloy that could be shaped by rolling, drawing or forging. Any variation in the basic composition was indicated by a letter preceding the numerical alloy designation. For example, A17S was a modification of the basic alloy 17S. In modern terminology these two alloys are designated 2117S and 2017S, respectively. Temper was designated by a second letter: "O" for soft (annealed), "H" for strain hardness of non heat-treatable alloys, and "T" for hardness of heat-treatable alloys. Degree of hardness of non heat-treatable alloys was indicated by a fraction preceding the letter "H". For example, 3S1/4H would be quarter-hard 3S alloy. The following Table gives examples of the old and modern designations of some common aluminum alloys. Modern System Old System 1100 2S 3003 3S 3003-0 3SO 2014 14S 2017 17S 2117 A17S 2018 18S 2218 B18S 2024T 24ST 5052 52S 7075T6 75ST6 ------- Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 04:13:03 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] (no subject) Joe Sullivan wrote: "I have come by a fair number of star drills in various sizes... Were they made of good enough steel to be valuable for making other tools?" According to Ray Larsen's "Tool Making For Woodworkers," the steel used for "Stoneworking tools. All chisels, drills, and facing-type hammers used for working stone" is AISI 1080/W1. His implication, though he doesn't say it right out, is that stone drills wouldn't be made of a more elaborate (and expensive) alloy steel. As I understand it 1080 can be hardened well enough for just about any woodworking tools, including chisels and plane blades, but its real use would be for tools that need both toughness for impact and a fairly keen edge. Theoretically, if your main need were an ultra-keen edge you might want to go with 1095 (old files, say) but for an axe or a froe 1080 would be good. In practice, the limit to what you can achieve with 1080 is more likely to be your skill in heat treating, not the fifteen points carbon difference between 1080 and 1095. If you want to use the star drills for woodworking tools by grinding without heat treating, then you would be better using it for tools that require impact resistance. Mortise chisels, not paring chisels. However, in practice star drills should be useful for anything where you're not using it frequently and aren't too fussy. It's easy to get fussy beyond practicality with steel. Lots of us, including me, have made perfectly satisfactory router [meaning the woodworking manual router plane] blades out of old hex keys, which are certainly not the ideal steel for the purpose. Lots of bookbinders use paring knives and lifting knives made of "all-hard" machine hacksaw blades, which are HSS and again not ideal for the purpose; some of my lifting knives are HSS. I would guess that the main drawback to using star drills for woodworking tools is that you will have an awful lot of metal to grind away. Unless you forge them out, and if you can do that you already know a lot more about steel than I do. I mostly know theory on steels, and not very profound theory at that. Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- [SherlineCNC] Re: What type of steel is used on replaceable sherline vise jaws? Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu May 24, 2012 3:28 am ((PDT)) "rankinecyclce1" wrote: >I'm wondering because the jaws machine very well. I discovered this with a recent mistake. In any case I've been mainly milling aluminum staying away from stainless steel and steels due to the noise and wear on my tools, but the steel used on the vise has nice finish and seems to machine quite easily so I might want to try a few pieces for practice with steel.< Most of the steel used in Sherline machines is 12L14. It's wonderful stuff. One of the most easily machined steels due to a high lead content. Can be polished to a mirror finish with little effort. Unless you need it to be stainless or hardened, I suggest the home shop machinist use nothing else. It will rust. A good metal polish helps, I recommend Simichrome. Or coat with oil and bake at 350F for an hour or so. (Same principle as "seasoning" cast iron cookware.) Also be aware of metal finishing products for gunsmiths. Search for Birchwood-Casey, KG Systems, and Van Gordan & Sons. All of these methods will change the color though. If you want shiny, just polish. I've got tools I made many years ago with not a trace of rust. (I should do a paper on metal finishing. Where in Hades is that Round Tuit?) It's not available in plate. For plate I suggest 1018. Almost as machinable as 12L14. Search for those alloys in McMaster.com and study their data pages on properties of materials. Excellent info on all metals and plastics. David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: What type of steel is used on replaceable sherline vise jaws? Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu May 24, 2012 4:52 am ((PDT)) Greetings, My mill and vise were purchased used, so I can't swear the jaws are original. They look like all the others, and folks machine steps to hold thin stuff in the tops of the factory jaws, so I'm supposing they are pretty soft steel. The usual vendors sell ground flat stock, an 18 inch length would give you several pairs of jaws so you could play with different combinations of grooves and slots. You could use ground low carbon steel. It is fairly inexpensive and machines pretty nicely, unlike big box store "made in one or more of the following countries" mystery metal. I've also occasionally fitted thicker aluminum jaws to larger vises and drilled the top edge to take pins. Makes holding irregularly shaped object, ovals, circles, and the like easy. Steel would be stronger in this application, aluminum in about the right size was at hand and I was being lazy :-) Take care, Stan ------- Re: What type of steel is used on replaceable sherline vise jaws? Posted by: "rankinecyclce1" baboonhead11x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu May 24, 2012 2:41 pm ((PDT)) Oh the leaded stuff. I was thinking maybe it was this. Are there health hazards to the handling and machining of leaded steels, although the lead is in the metallic crystal structure, it is still possible to be hazardous perhaps? Wash hands before eating? I've always been wary of dentists using a mercury alloy in dental fillings back in the day and nowadays they dont use it anymore. Or use leaded water pipes which they are still trying to get rid of. I still have some 304 stock lying around that I don't dare to touch yet. ------- Re: What type of steel is used on replaceable sherline vise jaws? Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Thu May 24, 2012 3:40 pm ((PDT)) There are concerns with leaded steel alloys -- as there are with many products and materials used in the shop. Basic safety precautions include not eating or drinking in the shop, thorough hand washing, and avoiding inhaling anything but air. Material Data Safety Sheets are available on-line. DC ------- Re: What type of steel is used on replaceable sherline vise jaws? Posted by: "Jeffrey T. Birt" birt_jx~xxsoigeneris.com Date: Thu May 24, 2012 4:43 pm ((PDT)) There are health concerns for any metal that is converted into dust or fumes in the shop. While 12L14 does contain lead, up to 2.5% or so, it also contains manganese which can also be an irritant when inhaled. Basically you just need to use common sense like you would for any other material. If I'm doing a lot of grinding I find a face mask keeps the gunk out of my nose and the face shield keeps it off my face J , breathing in welding fumes all day is not good for you etc. I get into spurts where I like to do a lot of wood working and went many years without a dust collector. After I bought one I was amazed at how much cleaner the air was (not to mention not having a nose full of sawdust snot.) Again, I should have let my common sense kick in years ago and saved up my pennies to buy a DC. Jeff Birt Soigeneris.com ------- Stainless for cutting and turning? [taigtools] Posted by: "Shawn Woolley" shawnwoolleyx~xxmac.com Date: Thu Jun 7, 2012 5:37 pm ((PDT)) I wanted to produce some pieces of jewelry for men in stainless steel, but have had difficulty finding stainless that cuts well. I finally got a series of pieces made out of 316L stainless and I'm loving it. Don't know enough about metal to know why but this tools so great I'm hooked. Does anyone recommend a different type of stainless that is easy to work and holds a nice finish. ------- Re: Stainless for cutting and turning? Posted by: "Alex Wetmore" alexx~xxphred.org Date: Thu Jun 7, 2012 5:42 pm ((PDT)) 303 is beautiful to machine. It doesn't braze or solder very well however. If you liked working with 316L then you'll love 303, since it doesn't work harden quickly like 316 does. alex ------- Re: Stainless for cutting and turning? Posted by: "Ken Cline" clinex~xxfrii.com Date: Thu Jun 7, 2012 10:27 pm ((PDT)) With the right flux, brazing alloy and technique, you can get good results brazing 303. New fluxes and alloys developed for artisanal bicycle framebuilders (I'm thinking of System 48 from Cycle Design Group) have been highly praised. Surface treatment with PickleX20 can improve the performance of other fluxes. Either way, activate the flux by heating before applying it - I keep working quantities of flux in tiny mason jars and pop them in the microwave before use. Choose a compatible silver alloy. And stainless has lower thermal conductivity than other steels, so take your time getting the piece up to temperature. Sorry for drifting off topic but I love melting metal, especially brazing, and I miss the torch when I don't have projects that need it. ------- Re: Stainless for cutting and turning? Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jun 7, 2012 6:07 pm ((PDT)) Shawn, I think 316 is used for medical instruments; I believe it work hardens. 303 machines nicely. I use a lot of 304 myself. Edmund ------- Re: Stainless for cutting and turning? Posted by: "Dean" deanofidx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Jun 7, 2012 10:57 pm ((PDT)) 303 and 416 are both considered "free machining" stainless alloys. I've used them both, and they both cut well. I like 416 better. Dean ------- Re: Stainless for cutting and turning? Posted by: "Don" Donx~xxCampbell-Gemstones.com Date: Thu Jun 7, 2012 8:45 pm ((PDT)) I agree with the 303. A few years back, I was making Faceting Machine Platens from it on the Taig. A good HSS tool is important, the carbide tools didn't work so well. The only issue I had was on a face off, the platens were 2 1/2" D and somewhere along a face off op, the lathe would sing and give a bad cut. It was more a surface speed issue than the steel though and if your parts are smaller, this issue goes away. Don ------- Re: Stainless for cutting and turning? Posted by: "pe3hmp" pe3hmpx~xxhotmail.com Date: Fri Jun 8, 2012 1:02 am ((PDT)) I use A2-70 it gives a very nice smooth finish, not sure what kind of stainless it is, it just says a2-70 on the bolts I use as material to make something from. Mark ------- Re: CRS v HRS was Sticky Tail Shaft cam [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:10 pm ((PDT)) On Jun 17, 2012, ML_Woy wrote: > Now can someone tell me how to tell the difference between > Cold Rolled Steel and Hot Rolled Steel?. When you come across scrap > it would be nice to know what you are looking at. Theoretically, the only difference between hot rolled and cold rolled steels is that hot rolled steel is rolled to its final dimensions while hot enough to scale (over 1700 degrees F) while cold rolled steel is rolled to its final dimensions well below scaling temperatures. Cold rolled steel will have a a very uniform finish and uniform dimensions. It looks much more silvery and shiny as opposed to hot rolled steel. Hot rolled steel looks nasty from the mill slag. Since the hot rolled steel IS rolled while hot, it has a chance to normalize after the last rollers, so it is pretty much stress free when you get it. But machinists who usually buy cold rolled steel, often have the stuff twist and warp on them as they machine the first side or two. This is because the cold rolled steel actually work-hardens in the rolling process. Steel's physical structure varies by product; heating and cooling change the molecular structure of the metal. Steel coming off the hot mill will be softer and more ductile than material further processed through a cold mill. Ductility, measured by elongation testing, determines the amount of material deformation that occurs before the material fractures. Elongation (in 2 inches) for hot rolled is from 39 to 43 percent, while cold rolled ranges from 40 to 46 percent. ------- Re: CRS v HRS was Sticky Tail Shaft cam Posted by: "Dean" deanwx~xxbmi.net Date: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:05 pm ((PDT)) M.L.Woy then wrote: > So obviously it makes a difference in final product depending on what steel you use. I was led to believe that "Cold Rolled Steel" was the preferred material to machine. When should you use hot and when to use cold? < On to the "hot rolled" and "cold rolled" thing. Cold rolled steel is not one thing. There are 50-100 different kinds of cold rolled steel, (CRS). Cold rolled is made to a spec, and there are a lot of different specs. Any of those different spec steels that are finished at the mill at a lower temp that makes a nicer finish and closer dimension are called cold rolled. There are a number of types of hot rolled steel too, but not the variety of cold rolled. The most common hot rolled steel is called A36, and it is used mainly for structural use. It is what people often call mild steel, (but most any low carbon steel is really mild steel). It does not machine particularly well, though not terrible, either. It is generally not as strong as other common steels, but that doesn't mean it's weak. It is steel. It is generally stress relieved as it comes from the mill, since it was run through the rollers while still red hot. That means it will usually not warp when machined in a non-symetrical manner. Most all cold rolled steels have a spec number. The most common in the States is 1018 crs. You can get that alloy in hot rolled, too. Other cold rolled steels are 1020, 1022, 1030, 1040, 1042, 1095, 1117, 1141, 1144, 1213, 1217, and on and on. There are LOTS of them. The numbers of the steels are like a recipe that tell the most basic characteristics of the steel. They also tell carbon content, which will let you know if your choice is any good for certain heat treating procedures. All of those steels have different strength and machining characteristics. If you don't know what to get, and you are not building something to a certain spec, it makes sense to get steels that are easier to machine, such as 1212 or 12L14. If you are buying out of a scrap yard, you will have no way what-so-ever of knowing what kind of steel you are getting, except that it may be hot or cold rolled. The appearance of those two general types is different. After that, what you pick up could be any of a hundred or so different steel alloys. If you want to know what you are getting, you need to buy specifically what you want from a metal supplier. Dean ------- Re: Biginner Question [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Bert TPSRR" bert-tpsrrx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:31 am ((PDT)) Earl wrote - > Possibly a stainless steel material will be my next try. Do *NOT* use stainless steel with aluminum. Over time stainless and aluminum will weld themselves together, making the parts not only unmovable but you can't take them apart. I learned this from the machine shop manager at a famous security camera manufacturer. They use both aluminum and stainless, depending on the model of camera, and they had to go to the point of getting two different Makino CNC Mills lines set up so they would not cross-contaminate the machines or the parts. Yes, part of it was the needed extra power and setting for the stainless, but the cross-contamination was a part of the decision as well. Bert ------- Re: What to use? [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 6:37 am ((PDT)) On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 John Wright wrote: > What kind of steel should I purchase to make, say, a tapered rod or some kind of tool? I need to build some MT0s so I can mount various tools in the tailstock since they don't seem to be readily available. Specifically I need a 1/2 20 threaded for my Jacobs chuck and a live center. Figure since I have a lathe why not make them myself. I know, it's not easy to do, but if it was easy everyone would do it right! :-) So any suggestions on what to buy and where to buy it will be appreciated. < For general "easy to turn" and "never to be welded" I use 12L14. It's a leaded mild steel that turns easier than any other steel. Only real downside is that it tends to rust easily and is a bit harder to weld. For applications needing tough I tend to 1144 and/or 4140, often in a "prehard" (PH) condition. Tough stuff but can't be made really hard. For hardening steels I tend to O1 or A2. A2 in smaller or thinner pieces as it has less tendency to warp. When there's a lot of mass I use A36 if it's isn't being turned much or 1018 when it is. With mass comes cost and if you don't need easy turning, tough or hardening steels these are your "go to" steels. Note that A36 is made with a strength spec, not an alloy spec, and you can get most anything with it. ------- Re: What to use? Posted by: "Bruce ." freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:19 am ((PDT)) You must distinguish the kind of tool you mean. A morse taper can be mild steel of virtually any sort. An edged tool must be medium to high carbon steel, and those will be harder to machine. A tool that requires "springiness" also must have significant carbon. Alloy steels complicate the question, but not outrageously. If you've yet to do ANY lathe work, I suggest you get some aluminum stock and practice with that before moving on to steel. ------- Re: What to use? Posted by: "Raymond" jwreyx~xxusa.net Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:05 am ((PDT)) Good advice, practice a bit with soft metal. Alu is expensive, though, and you aren't going to make tools from alu. CRS and HRS sold at the local hardware stores and home improvement centers are not friendly to the novice turner; they tend to be brittle and unforgiving and don't really make good tools anyway because they have low yield (bend easiy) but they are very weldable. Best used for light structural elements and lawn cart axles. If you want a nice turning material that makes good general purpose tools see if you can pick up some D2 tool steel. If Alu is described as turning like butter then D2 can be described as turning like frozen butter. Go easy and use sharp HSS or carbide cutters. If you experience chatter you're cuttig too deep, tool is not sharp, or has wrong angles ground, or your setup is not aligned properly. I like turning D2! The chips curl off nicely, leaves a nice finish cut and it polishes up to a brilliant chrome-like shine easily. SS 316 is also easy to turn. With a high chromium and nickle content it is fairly stong and has good hardness and very resistent to corrosion. This metal polishes up very nicely also. SS 316 can be used in many applications including marine and food service. You can make your own fittings for the boat if you have one. I understand another steel alloy that machines very nicely is 12L14, also known as "leadloy". Typically used for tools and machine parts, but not suitable for food servce because of the high lead content. I have not turned this yet, but am looking forward to it when I find an appropriate need for this alloy. If you can't find these materials locally an on-line source I sometimes use is www.speedymetals.com They will cut any of their standard shapes to length as you specify and ship to your door via UPS. Not the cheapest way to buy metals, perhaps, but if all you want is 12" of this or 18" of that and the local suppliers don't stock it then the choices are limited. Watch Ebay for good prices on drops. Some sellers are still pricey though so you need to do your homework. Enjoy! raymond ------- Re: What to use? Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:38 am ((PDT)) On August 22, 2012 Bruce wrote: > If you've yet to do ANY lathe work, I suggest you get some aluminum > stock and practice with that before moving on to steel. I usually suggest that someone wanting to practice general turning work by making useful things from usable materials, the point being that if you spend a lot of time making something, you really want to be able to use it when you're done. I do some knife making and often run into someone who spent a lot of time grinding and filing some 1018 who end up disappointed that it's never going to be any other than a knife-shaped lump. There are times when 'practice' materials are called for - checking out a threading setup or something else you're not comfortable with, etc. But if you're making something you want to use and you're putting some serious time into it you may as well use the right materials. (I usually break someone into lathe work with plexiglass -- I've got a bunch of it, you can see the results of good vs. bad turning easily and it's less dangerous in its response to most inexpert turning practices than any metal I can think of -- it fractures rather than jamming tools and bending things.) ------- Re: What to use? Posted by: "Jack Hilderbrant" capjakx~xxq.com Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:23 am ((PDT)) A few years ago it was suggested that a good source for materials was from scrap computer printers. I have found quite a few of them free for the taking on Craigslist. The only problem is that few of them have any stock larger than 1/2 in in diameter, but otherwise the stock is really nice to work with. ------- Re: What to use? Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:14 pm ((PDT)) Again, I've lost the original post. If money is no object, aluminum and free machining brass is fun, but tends to be expensive -- but it is also forgiving. Buying and paying for shipping on prime material can be expensive and intimidating. If there is any sort of manufacturing going on in your area, start looking at what is in people's scrap bins. Bear in mind that metal scrap has salvage value and is probably monitored, but if you can find a shop or factory that has scrap that you find of interest, offer to pay someone in a decision making capacity so much/per pound cash. I am NOT suggesting you do anything sneaky. Go to the owner, not some flunky, and see if a reasonable deal can be made. Usually they will be happy to help out a kindred spirit -- someone who is interested in adding value to a piece of metal thru investing skill and time. Best to do your scrounging after the shop personnel have gone home and the foreman is still around. Don't want to interrupt the shop flow or take anyone off of pressing business. If you are allowed on the shop floor, wear your safety glasses. Bring your own ear plugs. Try to be on their wavelength. Mild steel is not the best stuff, but may be plentiful. It can be machined and you will learn quite a bit learning to do so. Hot rolled round bar is cheap, but its machinable qualities varies a bunch. Still, if the availability and price is right, you don't agonize too much about ending up making smaller scrap out of big scrap -- and if you return your scrap to the source, it's a nice gesture to keep a symbiotic relationship going. Happy scrounging [but no stealing!!] L.H. Arkansas ------- Re: What to use? Posted by: "Bruce ." freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:43 pm ((PDT)) Look for places that cut metal for their uses -- and ask about shear drops (the short ends of no use to them). These are what will show up in a scrap (not "trash") bin. They're recycled, but the boss may be happy to use you as the recycler. Or go to the metal distributor, who likely is happy to sell shear drops -- though he'll probably charge more for them. Remember junk yards. Torsion bars, some steering linkage parts, etc., especially from trucks, make great stock. Leaf spring is good if you need flat. Us blacksmiths straighten out coil springs all the time -- it's a skill worth learning, even though you'll also need to learn to harden and temper. And if you want a good supply of cheap aluminum, consider melting and casting it yourself. A split (steel) pipe is a fine "ingot" mold for aluminum roundstock (smoke the inside before using it). Get a Lindsay Publications catalog and read up on the Gingery charcoal furnace. ------- Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2012 18:02:54 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] Gunmetal John Holladay wrote: > I've been looking at infill planes of various sorts both old and > new and I have a question. I understand steel, bronze, brass, > but what actually is GUNMETAL? Hi, John, In the middle nineteenth century, according to Holtzapffel vol. 1 p. 267 ff., "Copper alloyed with about one ninth its weight of tin, is the metal of brass ordnance, which is very generally called gun-metal; similar alloys used for the "brasses" or bearings of machinery, are called by engineers, "hard" brass, and also gun-metal; and such alloys when employed for statues and medals, &c. are called bronze. The further addition of tin, leads to bell metal, and speculum metal, which are named after their respective uses; and when the proportion of copper is very small the alloy constitutes one kind of pewter....Generally, the copper is alloyed with only one of the metals, zinc, tin, or lead; occasionally with two, and sometimes with the three in various proportions." On p. 273 he adds "GUN METAL (copper and tin) very commonly receives a small addition of zinc; this makes the alloy mix better, and to lean to the character of brass by increasing the malleability without materially affecting the hardness." As best I can make out and remember, increasing the proportion of tin makes the alloy harder, more abrasion-resistant, and more brittle, but also makes it less malleable (by bending and hammering) and less easy to machine (including cutting with hand tools like files and drills); speculum metal (for mirrors, as it is nearly white) will crumble under the file insead of being abraded in shreds. So an infill plane, which is formed with cutting tools and might be dropped in use, is made of tough and easily worked gunmetal, while a bell, which is made by casting and is not much worked by cutting (apart from tuning) is made of a more tin-rich alloy. The brittle tin-rich bellmetals are also more sonorous, by the way. And, of course, the color changes with the proportion, from reddish near copper through various yellows to silvery at the tin-rich end. I think a tin-rich bronze may cast more cleanly, but I'm not sure of that. Holtzapffel gives the different alloys in the founders' style, as ounces of tin per pound of copper. Of course, these were very approximate, since often old brass or bronze was added to the pot, not just for cheapness but because old metal was believed to improve the mixing of new pure metals. In percentages, with some reduction in the number of alloys mentioned, the copper/tin alloys include: Soft gun-metal that bears drifting, or stretching from a perforation, 6% tin. Gunmetal for mathematical instruments (often involving engraved dials or scales, like sextants), 8% tin. Gunmetal for gears, 9% tin. For ordnance (gunmetal properly so called) 8% to 12% tin. Bearings for machinery, 11% to 13% tin. Bell metal, 16% to 24% tin. Speculum metal, 31% to 34% tin. All parroted from Hotzapffel, not the product of experience on my part; but for what it's worth, there it is. Tom Conroy ------- [atlas_craftsman] I learn from my mistakes and I must have learned a lot recently Posted by: "rogers92026" brogers9941x~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:31 pm ((PDT)) I needed an extra faceplate for my Craftsman wood lathe. I thought it would be more fun to make another one than just buy it. So I got a 6 inch dia. 1/4 steel plate and welded a 1" long x 1" dia. steel hub to it. I planned on boring it to size with my Atlas 12x36 lathe, do a partial 3/4 - 16 tpi internal thread and finish it up with my new tap. The steel plate was very normal mild steel. The 1" dia steel was a piece of mystery metal (hot rolled steel) that I had laying around from another project. I put a file to it and it filed fine. Then I noticed that that on one spot on the outside that there was something really hard. The file just slid across it. Hmmm. That was weird... I welded it to the 6" plate. I chucked it up on the 1" shaft and faced the plate. I was proud of how close it was to have very little runout. So next, I tried drilling it out in preparation for threading. When the drill got about 1/2 way through the drill started screaming. I pulled it out and resharpened it. Tried drilling again and more problems in the middle. Hmmm. That is weird and a bad sign. I eventually got through it and decided to switch to using a boring bar with a carbide tip. I quickly found that I had to resharpen the now- chipped tip. I found that if I took light cuts -- like 0.005 per pass that it worked okay. I could get through it but there were spots in the middle where it sounded funny. I eventually got it perfectly to size 0.693 inches (minimum drill size for a class 1 or 2 thread). I ran a light single-point thread through it to help my tap get started. Then I tried using the tap. It started fine but I ran into real problems after I was in about 1/4 inch or so. I was using a liberal amount of tapping fluid. But the forces were off the charts. I had to put the plate in a vice as the lathe chuck couldn't hold it firmly enough. I finally got to the point where the tap couldn't advance any more and I had chipped a couple of teeth. Then I got the bright idea of annealing the part with the hope that whatever was so hard inside would respond to the heat treating. I put the part into my electric kiln and ran it up to around 1500 F and then let it very slowly cool down. When it was cool I tried running my chipped tap through it and surprisingly I was able to finish the threading without the huge forces and without the horrible screeching. So I finally got it done. Then I chucked it up to check the runout and confirm that it was still just about perfect. But now I had about 0.050 runout which may have worked but would be something that I would be embarrassed about. After a couple of minutes with a dead blow hammer, a pilot shaft in the hardy hole on the anvil I got it back to acceptable. Then I checked the flatness. Apparently when I heat treated it, it relieved the welding-induced stresses. That 6" inch plate that I had faced perfectly flat now had a nice curvature of about 0.020" towards the threaded hub (kind of makes sense now that I think of it). So, while it was a good "learning" experience, it wasn't as rewarding as I thought it would be. I did learn how NOT to do it next time. I'm wondering if anyone else ever ran into a chunk of steel with some hard spots in it? How long did it take you to throw it in the trash? Hopefully you did it more quickly than I did. ------- Re: I learn from my mistakes and I must have learned a lot recently Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:26 pm ((PDT)) Could be anything, but stainless steel for one work hardens and can be a sod to machine / drill if you let it get too hot. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: I learn from my mistakes and I must have learned a lot recently Posted by: cliveadams23x~xxaol.com Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:52 am ((PDT)) I did something vaguely similar last year. I had just bought an Atlas shaper and found that the cast iron flange on the bull wheel hub was broken - a major disaster since I'm in the UK and you just can't get parts over here (don't know if the situation is any better in the States . . . ?) No way was I going to scrap the machine, so I made a new flange out of a scrap piece of 1/2" steel plate I happened to have around. I marked it out a good bit larger than I actually wanted and cut the outside of the circle with an oxy-acetylene burner. I had cut it extra large to avoid having to later machine it in the HAZ, but evidently I was unsuccessful since I was getting sparks off my carbide tools in the lathe. I annealed it much the same as you, putting the plate in my furnace and heating it to an orange/red colour for an hour or so and then allowed it to cool slowly with the vent covered with fire bricks. After it had cooled it machined quite nicely - I machined the old flange off the hub shaft, made the new flange to fit and brazed it on then machined the channel for the stroke adjustment into the new flange. It all took a few days but I saved a fine old machine from the scrap and gained a valuable addition to my workshop. I didn't get any deformation after I brazed it, but I had plenty of 'meat' to machine it flat if I had - the 1/2" plate was a fair bit thicker than I needed. And, of course, the heat wasn't localised as it would have been if I'd welded it. (I pre-heated it in the furnace to save O/A gas so it was all red hot.) Don't know if this was a common problem with the Atlas shapers but I have photos of every step if anyone wants to do a similar repair. I used my Halifax 524 (Atlas 10F clone) and a Gingery mill in horizontal milling mode (cutter bar between centres) to do all my machining. Clive ------- Re: I learn from my mistakes and I must have learned a lot recently Posted by: "L. Garlinghouse" lhghousex~xxsuddenlink.net Date: Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:31 am ((PDT)) Your piece of cylindrical stock could have been "perfectly normal" HR steel round bar, also. In a past life I was a draftsman/designer/technician/...../...../&c making concrete buckets. On the large ones for dam jobs, the gates were opened by large [8" or 10" or 12" air cylinders] that we made in house. Usually the piston rods were made from turned and ground purchased in that state. The bail that went accross the top of the bucket was made out of hotrolled steel round bar. Usually the drop [what was not needed for the bail] was long enough to make a cylinder rod out of. Soooo, we all thought "cost savings!!" We'll use the butts off of the bail and make cylinder rods. We save the $$$ by not buying the prime turned and ground, and are essentially getting the rods for free, as in either case we had to thread both ends. NOT!!! "Perfectly normal" HR round bar is just remelted almost anything that will keep the carbon content within the very liberal specs. If it is magnetic and doesn't burn like paper it is ... [drum roll] ... "perfectly normal" mild steel. [Although steel from the US, Japan, China, Russia can be all "perfectly normal" there are broad ranges of qualities -- thus they are all the same, only different]. The machinist tasked with implementing this "cost saving" was very firm in suggesting the cost saving not be pursued. Not only was his time bad, he had difficulty holding size and getting the finish because of the broad, unpredictable nature of the material within a single piece. He shared that during WW II someone in the shop he was working in broke a tool in a large piece of round and the cause was an unmelted cold chisel imbedded below the rolled surface of what he was working on. We had some Russian 1/4" plate that if you bent it 90 degrees cross-grain it would fracture. Back then -- 1960-1970s -- steel was sometimes very difficult to get, so if you wanted to keep the doors open, you bought what was available. Our preference was Japanese stuff, the Russian stuff was totally unexpected and ALMOST unworkable. Sooooo, what you described is not unheard of and if you have trouble working "perfectly normal" mild steel, it may not be all your fault. Of course if everything machined like butter, our pastime wouldn't be nearly so rewarding and interesting. L8r, LH in Arkansas ------- Sterling Silver [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Robert Dunn" dunnrfx~xxtelus.net Date: Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:11 pm ((PST)) Hello all, Can anyone offer suggested spindle speed and feed rates for a 1mm carbide end mill in annealed sterling silver (as a starting point)? Thanks, Bob ------- Re: Sterling Silver Posted by: "Elizabeth Greene" elizabeth.a.greenex~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:28 pm ((PST)) How many flutes? Elizabeth Greene 615-280-0830 ------- Re: Sterling Silver Posted by: jowhowhox~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:29 am ((PST)) Same as brass. I should have said: same as non free machining brass -- like 260. It work hardens, and is grabby like brass. ------- Re: Sterling Silver Posted by: "Robert Dunn" dunnrfx~xxtelus.net Date: Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:13 am ((PST)) Thanks for your replies. It will be a 2-flute end mill. I'm buying a Sherline mill with the 10,000 RPM headstock. ------- Re: Sterling Silver Posted by: "R.L. Wurdack" dickwx~xxnwlink.com Date: Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:01 am ((PST)) As an aside, how do you re-aneal work hardened Silver? Dick ------- Re: Sterling Silver Posted by: "Robert Dunn" dunnrfx~xxtelus.net Date: Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:39 am ((PST)) Dick, The metal must be heated to 1200 F or 650 C to soften it. It should be protected with a coating of Boracic acid dissolved in alcohol, but still the copper near the surface will oxidize in the high heat, forming "fire scale" (copper oxide) which needs to be removed with abrasives. Boracic acid becomes molten at 1200 F-that's your indicator. Hope that helps. Bob ------- [sherline] Milling the hard (and work hardening) stuff like Titanium and 300 se Posted by: baboonhead11x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Apr 2, 2014 4:03 am ((PDT)) Anyone with experience using their not so sturdy sherline to machine alloys that work harden like titanium and 304 stainless? Any tips on tools and feeds? So I assume one needs to start with the right tools like a TiAlN coated carbide end mill. Correct feeds and depth? What are they for Titanium and 304 SS? If a drill bit gets snapped in a part then its basically game over start again? Any stories of people routinely doing SS and titanium work? ------- Re: Milling the hard (and work hardening) stuff like Titanium and 30 Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Apr 2, 2014 9:49 am ((PDT)) Baboonhead. I only have a Taig lathe and I use 304 all the time, as to cuts I have just recently taken a .040 cut making a headstock dead centre with drawbar using my modified top slide, see on you tube MVE 254 account Walter Maisey, 304 is a little bit tougher to machine than 303 Edmund ------- Re: Milling the hard (and work hardening) stuff like Titanium and 30 Posted by: baboonhead11x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Apr 2, 2014 5:24 pm ((PDT)) Thanks. You seem to handle that stainless part quite nicely. My results for turning hard stuff like stainless seems better than my milling of it. I have a block of 304 stainless that have destroyed one or two end mills of mine so I put it on the back burner to try again later for some other project. Nice videos. I need to make a dead center also as one of my projects. ------- Re: Milling the hard (and work hardening) stuff like Titanium and 30 Posted by: "ED MAISEY" holmes_ca_2000x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Apr 2, 2014 6:34 pm ((PDT)) I have no idea what speed you are on, but when cutting stainless 303/304 i keep my speed between 700 and 1000 preferably, of course that's with hss, I seldom use carbide. It would be an good investment if you had variable speed dc. Edmund ------- Re: Milling the hard (and work hardening) stuff like Titanium and 30 Posted by: desbromilowx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Apr 3, 2014 12:38 am ((PDT)) G'Day, not as experienced with SS, but spent a bit of time turning Titanium on my Taig lathe when Ti Rings were money spinners. My feeds and speeds were similar to steel, but the big "gotcha" was galling and buildup on the tool tip. The Ti would stick to the tooltip as badly as soft aluminium, and then catch fire (self ignite from the friction) and it would melt away the HSS tip. My practise... sharp tools with surface stoned clean; make one or two passes with the tool, then stone the buildup away (one or two passes with a small slip stone), keep going as above; keep the swarf from building up on the lathe area -- every change in task (drilling to facing, facing to boring, chuck position change [inside vs outside grip]) I would brush the swarf into a container away from the lathe. The above tips worked for me -- I got good finishes and never lost the work or the lathe to any metal fires. I did have a few "pucker factor moments" until I realised how often I'd have to stone the buildup off. I know people who have lost their lathe due to working flammable metals. I wouldn't permit myself to be one of them. When the buildup "burns" there is a small flash of light, and a wisp of white smoke. Then either the tools starts cutting really rough, or not at all. When you look closely at the tooltip, you will find the HSS melted away, and your cutting edge is the blobby bits left from the melting. There isn't any noise when it melts, but you will hear the cutting noise change for a brief second. I never tried coolant or lube since my lathe base was wooden back then. Now I would be inclined to try one of the cutting oils to see if it helped reduce the buildup. HTH, Des ------- Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:46:56 +1000 From: Peter McBride Subject: [OldTools] Brass & Gold Annealing - was Aluminum file? GG's, commentary on brass, copper and precious metal annealing has been a recurring topic. Here is how it actually works with 360 extruded brass. I put this page up back in 2004 after another round of the same commentary. 6mm round rod, three ways....no annealing, water quench and allowed to cool in air. http://www.petermcbride.com/brass_test/ Here are a couple of pictures of a similar test this morning with 260 cartridge brass (70/30). You can really give this stuff a work-out. 6mm flat rolled down to 4mm, cut in half. Then one quenched in water and the other allowed to cool for 10 minutes on heating pad. Then reduced from 4.0mm down to 1.0mm. The evidence was there at 2mm, but the further 50% reduction makes it look great. http://www.petermcbride.com/brass_test/cart_brass1.jpg http://www.petermcbride.com/brass_test/cart_brass.jpg [NOTE TO FILE: The water quenched brass in the photo became fractured.] I've got about 5 or 6 books on metallurgy, and it is split about 50% between ... to quench or not to quench in water. Why anyone who works with the stuff would recommend quenching it in water, as a standard practice, is a mystery to me. It goes against how I was instructed way back, and how brass has actually worked in MY hands for 50+ years. If the brass ISN'T going to be worked after the annealing, it is of no consequence. Also the same if is only going to be further reduced in cross section by about 20% or 30%. However if you need to work the metal to its potential, do it the right way. Now to gold with copper alloys. Gold alloyed with copper does not harden when quenched. Not in my working life so far.... I'm not going to waste gold (at AU$44 per gram) proving that one. Take my word for it. Over the last 35 years jewellery apprentices of mine have been told by teachers never to quench their gold or silver in water. So I've done the same test as the brass for them to correct the folly taught by teachers who learned from teachers who learned from books. 18ct yellow gold I alloy myself...75% gold, 12% copper 13% silver (with nothing else in there) behaves differently than brass. For 38 years I've melted that into ingots about 10mm dia., rolled it and quenched it in water, time after time, to reduce it to sizes down to 0.5mm and less. Lower carat golds like 10ct = 41.7% gold or 9ct 37.5% gold have lots of zinc in them to make them look yellow, and gold is trying to stop oxidation. So it is copper and zinc = brass, with some gold. I prefer to quench it as a standard practice, for speed, because I find no real difference in how it is cooled....that stuff is such crap to work with, annealing is the least of the problems. Regards, Peter In Main Ridge VIC who better get back to working with the gold, or the wolves will be at the door again...hehehe ------- Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 18:37:45 -0700 From: Spikethebike Subject: [OldTools] Re: Brass & Gold Annealing - was Aluminum file? Interesting, but in my 3 decades of jewelry work I have had to rescue jobs done by other jewelers who quenched rose gold and then tryed to work it. My experience was that if it was not air cooled it would lead to disaster. Sent from my various whereabouts, Spike ------- Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 12:22:30 +1000 From: Peter McBride Subject: [OldTools] Re: Brass & Gold Annealing - was Aluminum file? Spike, I have no idea what some goldsmiths do to ruin perfectly good metal? Oh well...just have to get the gold and show it like the brass then. I usually won't roll gold down until I need it for a piece of jewellery. Here is a piece of 18ct pink gold dropped into water immediately after casing into the ingot a few weeks ago and rolled without annealing from 10mm ingot to 5.4mm sq. http://www.petermcbride.com/brass_test/18pink1.jpg Then a few minutes ago annealed by dropping in water from cherry red, and rolled to 3.2mm sq. http://www.petermcbride.com/brass_test/18pink2.jpg I spoke to the metallurgist I know at a gold refinery 20+ years ago and asked him to do a presentation to our goldsmiths guild on small workshop alloying and re-melting gold alloys. I have his paper in my hands right now...he agrees with me. That's what I learned in the 80s, and have done without problems up until 10 minutes ago on that piece of gold in the pictures. Regards, Peter In Main Ridge, VIC AUSTRALIA ------- Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 05:30:59 -0700 From: Michael Blair Subject: Re: [OldTools] Brass & Gold Annealing - was Aluminum file? > Here are a couple of pictures of a similar test this morning with 260 > cartridge brass (70/30). Well, live and learn. Quenching to anneal brass cartridge cases used to be recommended for reloading. Mike in Sacto ------- Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:47:08 -0500 From: Wesley Groot Subject: [OldTools] Re: Brass & Gold Annealing - was Aluminum file? Peter, I think you answered your question before you asked it. If 50% of the books say quench, that explains why some people still quench. ;-) Thanks for posting the brass test page again and the additional photos. For repousse, I try not to let my clients order brass... I just don't like it very much. Ninety-five percent of all my experience is copper and silver, which is so easy to work, even *I* can do it. I've only made one gold buckle and I'm not looking forward to doing it again. (I do this because I wanted to get away from stress in the workplace. ;-) So my question is about bronze: The material I have is scrap sheet (or plate... From a company that does bronze work for churches. (The decorative box they keep the wine and wafers in, for example.) It's about 1/16th thick and I'm wondering if I can roll it down to 18 gauge and use it for repousse? Would I treat it like brass and not quench? I could just go ahead and experiment, but I thought I'd ask an expert opinion. Cheers, Wes ------- Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 07:51:38 +1000 From: Peter McBride Subject: [OldTools] Re: Brass & Gold Annealing - was Aluminum file? Wes, my actual experience is with varieties of brass, and gilding metal (about 90 something % copper and the rest zinc.) If I've no personal experience with something, I might put a view out there, but it will be always be stated as just that, a possible answer, or a best estimate, or a WAG...but so much absolute nonsense is repeated over and over again it gets currency. So to the bronze...if it isn't already soft, my first though based on previews copper alloys would be to heat it up, hold it for about 30 or more seconds at cherry red, let it cool to black and drop it on a heat proof pad. I can't be certain, but that's where I'd start. BUT... I wouldn't put to much faith in Peter McBride's opinion...if that's possible...and so I'd do a 2 minute test. THEN I would KNOW, and I love to be in that place...hehehe Going from 1.6mm to 1.0mm should be fine if it is bronze, (copper and tin). If there is lead in it for machine-ability, I wouldn't be so optimistic. Then anneal it again before belting it around. It is possible what you are calling bronze is the gilding metal I have. Orange /redish colour?? If it was being used as I think it might be, it would be my first choice for that purpose. Here is some.... http://www.petermcbride.com/parser/img/parser09.jpg From this page... http://www.petermcbride.com/parser/ Gilding metal is great stuff. Works much the same a stg silver. What type of brass is causing you grief? 260 would be my recommendation. It deforms much further than sterling silver, more like pure silver. With 260 you can deep draw something like a gun cartridge, and re-use it over and over again after annealing. I've only done repousse in silver and gold, but that 260 brass is what I've used for ages cold forging into all kinds of things. Every materials data sheet shows the cold working properties as "excellent", and I agree. The chart I have states that copper - tin bronze also has "excellent cold working properties", but leaded bronze not so good. Regards, Peter In Main Ridge, VIC Australia ------- Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:27:57 +0100 From: Yorkshireman Subject: Re: [OldTools] Brass & Gold Annealing - was Aluminum file? Peter (McBride) confirms what my old schoolteacher Peter (Holt) taught us a half century ago. The school workshop (this was back in the days when schools had workshops) had a couple of gas and air torches for brazing, which was the basis for learning how to silver solder and braze. Over in a corner was a slightly horrid glazed sink full of a weak acid solution, and covered with a very unhappy wooden lid. Being exposed to acid fumes for years meant it had a curiously spongy appearance. No doubt it would have been remade from time to time. These were wood and metalwork teachers back in the day when they could make stuff. I don't recall there being a circular saw, or a bandsaw, so we could probably not do too much damage to ourselves. Sawing was done by hand - and at the time, I didn't realise the degree to which proper life skills were being taught. Simple stuff about how to plane a lump of timber flat and square, and how to use a panel saw. Anyway - to anneal, we heated to red, let it air cool, then pickled it to loosen the oxides, off to a buffing wheel to put back the shine, and maybe more planishing. After about a month, we could have a dished circular 'thing' still with planish marks, but shiny, which we then soft solderd to a ring foot. Parents were expected to go 'Ooh aah' I htink - so much hands on knowledge transfer the we didn't appreciate at the time. Can't help wondering whatever happened to Peter Holt and his colleagues. For some reason I google earthed the old school - been demolished and rebuilt - fancy modern place that probably cost a plenty, but I'll bet it has no real workshops. Richard Wilson a Yorkshireman ex pupil of Allerton Grange now in Northumberland. ------- CNC milling 24 guage argentium silver [TAIGTOOLS] Posted by: "Greg Miller" bigmillerx~xxshaw.ca scuffer52 Date: Sun May 3, 2015 5:48 pm ((PDT)) Hi folks, I have to mill some 24 guage (0.5mm) sheet, argentium silver pendants. I've milled a ton of wax models but never any silver, so I have a few of the obvious questions. Some of the inside areas to be cut are small and would have to be made with a tool bit as small as 0.3mm. I want to dry mill them without flood with the exception of a very small amount of a super lube(suggestions)? Are there any really tough, short, micro bits that could cut through the 24 guage in [color=#0000FF]1 pass[/color] without breaking lots of these tiny bits or just stick with HSS? Would it be better to order 24 guage argentium sheet that has been annealed... hard or dead soft? The argentium is probably going to be gummy so would a 2 flute be better with a very slow feed under 8 inches(200mm) per minute and a spindle speed under 10,000? Hopefully some one has had some hands-on experience milling this stuff and could save me wasting silver and tool bits. Thanks, Greg Miller ------- Re: CNC milling 24 guage argentium silver Posted by: "Michael Fagan" woodworker88x~xxgmail.com Date: Sun May 3, 2015 6:04 pm ((PDT)) See Nick Carter's page on doing exactly this: http://www.cartertools.com/cncjewel.html Michael ------- Re: CNC milling 24 guage argentium silver Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Sun May 3, 2015 8:41 pm ((PDT)) I use a 1/32" end mill. I use just a few drops of cool tool II lube. I do 24 ga and use standard 2 flute centercutting HSS end mills. > Would it be better to order 24 guage argentium sheet that has been > annealed... hard or dead soft? I just get the stock hardness Rio has. I do 10K spindle but 2-3 ipm. felicex~xxcasco.net is Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein. Learn more about us at http://www.nickandfelice.com ------- Re: CNC milling 24 guage argentium silver Posted by: amandax~xxalfar.com amandawalker Date: Mon May 4, 2015 12:46 am ((PDT)) You definitely want at least half hard, probably full hard. I tried milling some dead soft silver once, and the end mill ended up just pushing it around (and then broke off). Use a 2-flute HSS end mill and as fast a spindle speed as you can manage (10Krpm should work OK, though I use a 30Krpm spindle for tiny cutters like this). If you get the spindle and feed rates right, you shouldn't need flood coolant. A bit of lube will work, as will spraying it by hand occasionally with WD40 (fairly volatile, so you may need more than one spray if you are doing a long job). Similar settings will work for other jewelry metals (nickel silver, brass, copper, and various silver alloys; haven't tried gold :-)). Amanda ------- Re: CNC milling 24 guage argentium silver Posted by: bigmillerx~xxshaw.ca scuffer52 Date: Mon May 4, 2015 11:41 am ((PDT)) Thanks to Michael, Nick and Amanda for your replies! Actually Nick I did look at your archives but somehow missed your tuts on milling, engraving and stamping sterling. Thanks for sharing. I still have the same 4th axis mill I purchased from you and it has become a good friend. ;) In your engraving tutorial you use a 140 degree diamond tipped drag tool with the depth to be about .002" (0.05mm) deep. I've never used one of these and I see you don't use a floater and get crisper results. Where do you purchase the diamond tipped drag tools you use? Did you find that .002" (0.05mm) is a safe, standard depth of cut for all the different degrees of diamond tipped drag tools? I'm used to cutting with pointy tools. :) Is there any way besides trial and error to estimate the different thickness of the engraved line with the different degrees of drag tools? Thanks again for the help and if I can reciprocate feel free to contact me through the forum or directly. Greg Miller ------- Re: CNC milling 24 guage argentium silver Posted by: "Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein" felicex~xxcasco.net Date: Mon May 4, 2015 12:43 pm ((PDT)) I bought the drag tools from Bits&Bits, but they are available from a number of sources. If the work is dead flat then a floater isn't needed IMHO. The depth is figured by taking the width of the line you want to produce and the angle of the tip and either some trigonometry or CAD drawing to figure out the needed depth. The more acute the angle the deeper you need to go to get a similar width line. felicex~xxcasco.net is Nicholas Carter and Felice Luftschein. Learn more about us at http://www.nickandfelice.com ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------