This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Rust is a constant enemy of iron or steel, and this file contains many ideas and tips on removing it. The Lubricants General file has more ideas on preventing it. ADDITIONAL SAFETY REQUIREMENTS! Safety requirements for the particular cleaning product may require added special precautions not mentioned here. Be very careful and consult the cleaning product manufacturer or government occupational health and safety sources if you have any questions or doubts before proceeding! In every case wear suitable protective gloves, clothes, masks, and eye protection; take any further safety precautions suggested on the product label or material safety data sheet (available from the manufacturer). Unplug any machine to be cleaned. Ensure there are no other electrical or open-flame or heat or spark hazards in the area that might be exposed to the cleaning material. Remove or completely cover and seal the electric motor and wiring and switches before cleaning; do not get any cleaning material onto or into these electrical or electronic parts. After cleaning make sure any electrical device or attachment is completely dry inside and out before plugging it in or turning it on. Usually the best place for cleaning is outside, well away from buildings and wind and flame or any source of ignition. For removing grease from old machines, various products like carb cleaners and oven cleaners have been suggested in these newsgroups. The latter two may hurt paint, so test on a small area first. Testing first on a small area is a good idea in any case. Ignition cleaners and WD-40 won't normally damage paint. Never use gasoline or similar products!!! Some commercial cleaning products are flammable; there are much safer alternatives! There are commercial proprietary cleaners that may be better and safer than home recipes. Water-based cleaners may work very well; parts need to be dried quickly and re-lubed on bare metal areas to prevent insta-rust. Choose products wisely and work extremely carefully, following all safety precautions. SAFETY OF YOURSELF AND OTHERS must remain your primary concern if you decide to use any of the methods mentioned here. There is another general text file called Cleaning Tips that overlaps with this one when grunge as well as rust has to be removed. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. If you do not have those most recent official instructions, acquire a copy through the manufacturer before operating or using their product. Where the company no longer exists, use the appropriate news or user group to locate an official copy. Be careful -- original instructions may not meet current safety standards. Updated safety information and operating instructions may also be available through a local club, a local professional in the trade, a local business, or an appropriate government agency. In every case, use your common sense before beginning or taking the next step; and do not proceed if you have any questions or doubts about any procedure, or the safety of any procedure. Follow all laws and codes, and employ certified or licenced professionals as required by those laws or codes. Hazardous tasks beyond your competence or expertise should also be contracted to professionals. Let's be really careful out there. (c) Copyright 2003 - 2016 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ============================================================================ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 01:31:57 -0500 From: Jack Fuselier Subject: Re: cleaning darkening from machine tools Robert Bowen wrote: > This might be a little off-topic, but here goes: > I buy probably 90% of my machine and hand tools at garage sales and > flea markets. I try to buy only Starret or B &S or similar, but a lot of > times they have not been taken care of recently. A lot of the time they > have surface rust, or at least darkening. Is there a way to clean this > off without damaging the tool? I have tried steel wool but it doesn't > seem to work very well. I think that bead or sand-blasting would be much > too harsh. Thanks! Robert Robert, I have to remove even invisible rust before electroplating. I use Hydrochloric acid, available from swim pool supplies as muriatic. Dilute it a little, by puttng a small amount in a glass or poly plastic container containing an equal small amount of water. (Water in first) Degrease your tools with non-oily carb cleaner first. wash your tools in this acid mix with a plastic brush until derusted and rinse under hot water and IMMEDIATELY spray them with lye oven cleaner. This is an important step! Let that soak a few minutes to de-activate the metal, or it will immediately rust again. Rinse well under hot water again and soak with WD-40 or other water displacer for a couple hours to get all the moisture out of the metal.. Wipe dry and keep them dry and oiled and you're home free. Caution, when you open the acid jug, watch out for deadly fumes. Same applies when spraying oven cleaner. Jack F If wearing a handgun is not a good means of self defense, why do police wear them? ------- Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 17:11:56 -0500 From: Jack Fuselier Subject: Re: cleaning darkening from machine tools gcontreras wrote: > Be warned! Fumes given off by this stuff will surface rust, discolour > any exposed metal (read your lathe, mill ways...) within 12 feet > of the container that you poured it into, I speak from experience... > Guillermo this is true, the kind of acid you get from a pool supply is "fuming" hydrochloric acid. Chlorine gas etc. is being liberated and will pollute the air, so open it outside with plenty ventilation. Jack F ------- Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 03:39:57 -0000 From: "Pierre d'Entremont" Subject: Stripping Rust from Steel You can try reverse electroplating. Get a glass or plastic container and fill with drinking water. Obtain a 1-5 Amp MANUAL 12 volt battery charger. Connect the positive lead of the battery charger to a copper or stainless steel wire that is supporting the part that you want to clean. Place the negative lead to a large steel block that you will place in the container as well. Once you have placed the two into the container with water, you will start to add table salt until the meter shows about 1 Amp current flow. The manual charger is important as an Automatic charger needs to see 12 volts to turn on, and is of no use in this application. I did try it and it did not work. I use a motorcycle trickle charger and it works fine. This does work but it is not fast. Can take hours or days depending on the amount of rust you are trying to remove. Rinse in hot clean water and use a water displacing oil such as WD40 to prevent further rust. This is no my idea, I found it in one of Brownell's Gunkinks books. ------- From: "Kenneth Mayer" Subject: Subject: Stripping Rust from Steel > Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 03:39:57 -0000 > From: "Pierre d'Entremont" >You can try reverse electroplating. >Get a glass or plastic container and fill with drinking water. Add some sodium carbonate ("washing soda") or sodium bicarbonate ("baking soda") to the water. >a 1-5 Amp MANUAL 12 volt battery charger. Connect the positive lead >of the battery charger to a copper or stainless steel wire that is >supporting the part that you want to clean. Place the negative lead >to a large steel block that you will place in the container as well. You have the polarity reversed...positive goes to the sacrificial anode, negative to the workpiece. Use some stainless steel as the anode, and it won't turn into a pile of rust. I use stainless steel foil. >Once you have placed the two into the container with water, you will >start to add table salt until the meter shows about 1 Amp current >flow. The manual charger is important as an Automatic charger needs Don't use salt. The dissolved chloride ion will act with the generated hydrogen ions to form hydrochloric acid. >to see 12 volts to turn on, and is of no use in this application. I >did try it and it did not work. I use a motorcycle trickle charger >and it works fine. >This does work but it is not fast. Can take hours or days depending >on the amount of rust you are trying to remove. Use more current and it will progress faster. >Rinse in hot clean water and use a water displacing oil such as WD40 >to prevent further rust. Use a wire brush, steel wool, Scotchbrite, etc to remove the black rust that formed on the part. >This is not my idea, I found it in one of Brownell's Gunkinks books. iirc there's a detailed description posted in the www.metalworking.com dropbox. It should be in one of the archives (1998?); look for the file "eclean.*" Also do a www search for "electrolytic rust removal". Ken :-) ------- Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 08:01:41 -0000 From: "W.C. Gates" Subject: Removing Rust from Steel I'm new to this eGroup, and so I scanned back a few months's of messages. Verrry interesting! There was one topic to which I would like to add -- rust removal. My late uncle, a PhD in Chemistry, told me to use Ammonium Citrate. He said that is the ingredient in the the Rust Remover sold at one time by Brookstone. You mix about a tablespoon of it into a quart of water, in a glass or plastic container with an airtight lid. Degrease the rusty part, and then lower it into the solution. A day to a week later, depending on amount of rust, remove object from solution, dry, wire brush with a fine wire brush or wheel to remove the powdery residue, and apply oil, acrylic spray or WD-40 to prevent rerusting. No electricity, no acid, no fumes, not poisonous. Objects have to be immersed. The airtight lid is to exclude air, which deteriorates the chemical. The ammonium citrate attacks only the rust. The solution turns black as it works. I bought this chemical at the Science Shop in San Jose, CA. It's not cheap, but I bought 100 gm 5-6 years ago, and haven't used all of it yet. ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is a lot more info on this citric method in messages in 2004 found below. ------- Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:51:34 -0000 From: pasons1x~xxjuno.com Subject: Surface Rust Removal Some of the dials on my lathe and millimg attachment have developed a severe case of surface rust. What is the best way to remove this without damaging the dials? Thanks Phil Pasons Fabrication ------- Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 16:21:57 -0000 From: extratec2001x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Surface Rust Removal Try sanding blasting it with finely ground up walnut shells. This should remove the rust but not damage the underlying metal. Walnut shell media is available at any outlet that carries sand blasting equipment and supplies. Another solution is to use a very, very fine steel wool combined with a can of WD-40. -R- ------- Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 10:41:22 -0600 From: Jim Irwin Subject: Re: Surface Rust Removal I like the scrub pads that look like stainless steel turning spirals, but are said to be something else that you get at gunshows for taking off rust without harming bluing. Work really well and do not leave scratches. Best regards, Jim Irwin ------- Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 08:53:09 -0500 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Surface Rust Removal At 03:51 PM 11/20/01 +0000, you wrote: >Some of the dials on my lathe and millimg attachment have developed a >severe case of surface rust. What is the best way to remove this >without damaging the dials? Thanks Phil Pasons Fabrication Phil; Here is a link to how I'm removing the rust from my mill. http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/Rust_Removal.htm Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA Builder Miinie #2 Captain R/C Combat Ship USS Arizona ------- Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:44:53 -0600 From: "R and J Sport" Subject: Re: rust removal I use a product called NEVER DULL comes from Brownell's in a 4 OZ can and is a treated mass of cotton waste. It will take off the rust and leave the finish. Just oil he part up afterword. Good Stuff Jim at R and J ------- From: Charles Brumbelow To: Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [atlas_craftsman] rust removal > Check out this site and its associated links dealing with rust and its > removal also. Charles NOTE: YOU CAN GO TO THE MENTIONED ADDRESS WHICH HAS LIVE LINKS BY SIMPLY COPYING THIS ADDRESS INTO YOUR BROWSER DESTINATION. http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/rust/rust.html A Primer on Rust by: Bob Neidorff I Hate Rust When I lived in Arizona, my tools never rusted. Arizona is hot and dry. Here in New England, rust is a significant problem. It is especially bad for people who have shops in their cellars. Cellars tend to be damper than heated rooms or garages, and dampness leads to rust. What Is Rust? Many materials react with oxygen to form a chemical compound that is a combination of that material and oxygen. When iron combines with oxygen, it forms iron oxide, or rust. Iron oxide is a larger molecule than iron, so if iron oxidizes, it often puffs up and may even flake. This is because the rust requires more physical space than the original iron. Some things cause steel or iron to rust faster than others. Water will cause iron and steel to rust. Dissimilar metals rust faster than single metals because of electrochemical reactions, so steel rusts faster than iron, and joints between dissimilar metals rust very quickly. Salt water will cause rust faster than water because salt water is a better electrical conductor. Like most chemical reactions, heat also speeds rust. If steel starts to rust, it will puff up because iron oxide is a larger molecule than iron. The puffing causes cracks and voids, which expose more bare metal to the environment. So the rusting of iron can progress and is only limited by destruction of all solid iron. Other metals oxidize, but the oxides of some other metals are no larger than the metal themselves, so they don't puff up or flake. For example, aluminum doesn't puff up when it oxidizes. This helps make aluminum oxide a good protective coating, rather than the start of rapid degeneration. Rust is really Fe2O3, a reddish form of iron oxide. Iron has another oxide, Fe3O4, which is sometimes called black oxide, black rust, or hammerscale. Black oxide is a good protection for steel. Like aluminum oxide, black oxide molecules are the same size as iron molecules, so black oxide does not grow or flake. Black oxide is true gun bluing and the oxide found on some drill bits. Black oxide is also seen on iron and steel that has been hot-worked. You can coat steel with black oxide by a careful regimen of rusting the right amount and boiling the rusted metal in water to convert it. This is how non-caustic gun bluing is done, and although it is tedious, it produces very attractive and durable results after several treatments. Is Rust Alive? Many people say that rust lives and that you have to kill rust to stop metal from continuing to rust. The real significance is that once rust is formed, there is mobile oxygen in the metal, and the oxygen can move deeper into the metal causing further rust. Techniques to kill rust are described below. All rely on dissolving rust or converting rust into black oxide and then coating the metal with something that inhibits the formation of more rust. Preventing Rust on Tools You can discourage rust a number of ways. For my woodworking tools, like my table saw and jointer tops, I use Automobile Paste Wax. I put it on fairly heavily and often. It seems to work well. There are also cream waxes, but these contain some water, so I stick with paste. Another excellent product for protecting woodworking machinery is Bostik Top Cote. This is a product specifically engineered for protecting the surfaces of woodworking machinery and lubricating the working surfaces to reduce wood-to-metal friction. As this was developed for contact with wood, it has no additives which might interfere with wood finishing. For machine tools, Way Lube is the right thing. Keep unpainted parts of your lathe and mill covered with Way Lube. It's really inexpensive, often less than $12 per gallon. For small tools, cutting bits, and stock, it is more complex. You really don't want to dunk a center punch in Way Lube or wax it, because you don't want it to be slippery. You also want the best possible protection up front, because it won't be renewed. There are many commercial products that claim to displace moisture and prevent rust. Some common ones are WD-40, Starrett M1, LPS-1, and LPS-3. All come in aerosol cans, which is convenient although expensive and bad for our environment. All leave a film of light oily stuff on the metal. Other products are Sprayon Corrosion Supressant, Rustlick 631, CRC SP-350, CRC SP-400, Boeshield T9, Birchwood Casey Sheath, and Rust-X. Some of these products are petroleum based, while others seem to be wax based. However, they all prevent rust by keeping air and water off of the metal surface. Not surprisingly, each product is claimed to do everything well and to surpass every competitor. Some claim that one works better than the others, but the real differences between these products are more related to their uses. For example, some leave a heavier, tougher coating than others. Some leave an easy-to-remove coating. Some are better in the presence of salt spray. But any of them will keep rust at bay as long as the work is well coated. In general, I hear very good things from people about Boeshield T9 and I get poor feedback about WD-40. Perhaps this is because WD-40 is meant to do everything, while Boeshield T9 is specifically engineered as a treatment for long-term storage of materials. One common complaint about WD-40 is that it gums up mechanisms. You can make your own rust protection coating by mixing 1 part Anhydrous Lanolin with 5 parts Paint Thinner. Just brush it on or dip the metal in it. You can get Anhydrous Lanolin from a pharmacy by special order. Dillon Case Lube is a commercial rust protection made from Lanolin and Alcohol. Many people have reported excellent results with Lanolin and Lanolin-based rust protection products. Contrary to popular belief, Lanolin is not perfectly safe even though it is natural. Some people have allergic reactions to it. In addition, it can clog pores and cause infections. Another great technique for preventing rust is to protect the metal with a coating of zinc. This coating process is often called galvanizing. (Named after Luigi Galvani. Luigi Galvani is best known for experiments making dead frog muscles contract with electrical impulses.) Zinc is more electrochemically reactive than iron. Zinc prevents rust by oxidizing itself instead of iron. Many of today's cars are made with galvanized steel panels. These panels won't rust until after the paint is damaged and the zinc corrodes through to the underlying steel. You can buy Crown 7007 Cold Galvanizing Spray and other zinc based primers in aerosol cans. Still another technique for preventing rust is to surround the metal with fumes from a material that discourages rust, such as Camphor (C10H16O) or Moth Balls. Some Moth Balls are naphthalene (C10H8) while others are paradichlorobenzene. Gun suppliers sell protective wrapping material and blocks which prevent rust by a similar technique. For example, Brownell's sells VPI Paper and Rust Blocks Vapor Tabs. Another good product is Permatex In-Charge Corrosion Inhibitor, a moisture absorber which also releases rust-protecting vapor. Just storing your tools in a tight wooden box will discourage rust. Wood acts as a fairly good barrier to humidity and absorbs what remains. One person stored tools in side-by-side tool cases, one a Gerstner Wooden Case, the other a Kennedy Metal Case. After years of storage, the tools in the metal case showed surface rust while the tools in the wooden case were clean. Dust can be a good magnet for moisture, so if you can keep dust off of your tools, you will discourage rust. A breathable canvas tarpaulin or fitted tool cover is effective. However, avoid a cover that goes all of the way to the floor. This will trap moisture and encourage condensation on your tool. Instead, just cover the tool down to the bench or chip pan. Another great way to prevent rust is to put a dehumidifier in your shop. If your shop is a closed room or cellar, then a dehumidifier will be very effective. A dehumidifier will not be helpful in a drafty garage, but a garage may not be as humid as a cellar, either. Removing Rust When iron or steel starts to rust, it will puff up and expose clean metal to the open air, allowing rust to continue to the depths of the metal. If your favorite possession is already rusting and you want to clean it or at least stop the rusting, you have a few alternatives. There are a few products on the market which fall into the category of organic rust converters. These products contain acid to convert rust to black oxide and polymers which bond to rust. Instructions say to remove all loose rust, paint on the product, and let it dry. I've used one of these products and it did work. However, the resulting surface is black and rough. Also, the converted rust is not durable, so this may not be the right treatment for tools or stock. Some trade names for these products are: POR-15, Glean Tech Rust Killer, and RustX. Another rust treatment is to remove loose rust and coat the metal with a product like WD-40. This fills pores and rust with a noncorrosive substance and prevents additional rusting. Often, this is sufficient to slow the progress of rust and leave the tool protected for future storage. There are also techniques which remove rust. The most crude is sand blasting or bead blasting. This is standard practice in auto body repair shops. Sand blast will remove some good metal and will work-harden the surface, so glass bead blasting is used for more delicate parts. Immediately after any blasting, metal is clean and exposed, so it is essential that some form of rust proofing goes next. In auto body work, this is often an acid metal wash (see below) followed by self etching primer, but could also be a coating of a product like Boeshield T9. Sand paper and steel wool will also remove rust, but they don't get into tiny crevices. Rubber abrasive sanding blocks like those made by Cratex are good at removing a thin coat of rust and can also remove rust from minute pores in the metal. Another technique for removing rust is etching with Phosphoric Acid. Phosphoric Acid has a unique property of dissolving iron oxide quickly while etching iron very slowly. This means that you can leave metal in Phosphoric Acid for much longer than necessary with very little damage. The acid will attack bare metal slowly and will start the process of hydrogen embrittlement, so use the minimum etch time that removes all rust. Another unique advantage of Phosphoric Acid is that it leaves a fine coating of iron phosphate behind. Iron phosphate prevents rust. However, the iron phosphate coating is not very thick and not durable. Some additional protection is still required. Phosphoric Acid etch will leave a hard, bright metal finish. This is because it will etch the surface slightly, exposing new, bare metal. Often this is desirable. It leaves an attractive surface and a surface ready to paint. A common product which contains Phosphoric Acid is Naval Jelly. The soft drink Coca-Cola contains Phosphoric Acid, so Coke will etch rust. But Coke also contains carbonic acid and other nasty things. You're going to drink that stuff? Auto body shops treat metal with acid metal wash, a solution of Phosphoric Acid and alcohol before painting. This removes waxes and oils, removes slight amounts of rust that form between sand blasting and painting, and leaves a thin protective coat of iron phosphate. One commercial solution for this is DuPont Quick-Prep. Sherwin Williams has a similar product called Metal Prep. Other acids will etch rust, but not as selectively. Hydrochloric acid can etch rust very quickly. Oxalic acid has also been used. However, if you leave metal in these acids a bit too long, you will lose a significant amount of metal. Also, neither acid leaves a protective film behind. Oxalic acid opeartes to remove rust by forming a water-solable complex ion (called a chelate) around each iron ion. So do cyanide compounds. Both react likewise with the iron in your blood, meaning the oxalates are just as poisonous as the cyanides. I read of using a solution of 1 part black molasses and 9 parts water to remove rust. Perhaps this works because the molasses is slightly acidic. The procedure is very slow. After treatment, metal starts rusting quickly, so this is probably not a phosphoric acid treatment. All acids contribute some hydrogen to the metal structure. This weakens steel by a process called hydrogen embrittlement. If the metal is a cutting tool or gun barrel, for example, this weakening can be dangerous. One person claimed that if you bake the metal at 400F for an hour after acid cleaning, then you can drive out the hydrogen and prevent this embrittlement. With all acids, use rubber gloves and splash goggles, no matter how weak the solution. When thinning acid, add acid to water. Never add water to acid. One more technique for removing rust is Electrolytic Rust Removal. Rust can be electrically etched off of iron or steel in a bath of mild alkali, such as Sodium Carbonate. Connect the rusty part to the negative terminal of a 12V battery or battery charger and a scrap piece of steel or iron to the positive terminal. Use one tablespoon of Sodium Carbonate per gallon of water. This technique has many advantages. First, the alkaline solution is much safer than some of the acids mentioned earlier. It is still a chemical, so rubber gloves and splash goggles are recommended. Another advantage of electrolytic rust removal is that it will have no effect on good metal, so you can leave the work in the bath for a long time and not damage the metal. There is no risk of hydrogen embrittlement nor of etching unrusted metal. Electrolytic rust removal will leave a black oxide surface, which is the result of a process that doesn't remove any good metal at all. The only thing removed is loose rust and embedded oxygen. If your goal is to keep as much of the original metal behind, this is the best technique. However, be prepared to immediately follow this technique with one of the rust prevention procedures, such as using Boeshield T9 or VPI Paper wrap. Guy Lautard mentioned Knorrostol in one of his popular bedside readers. He recommended it for precision tools. This is a mildly abrasive rust removing polish that can remove light surface rust on smooth metal surfaces quickly. It comes as a paste in a tube. There's another rust removal technique used for restoring chrome on old cars and motorcycles. Rub the area vigorously with the end of an aluminum bar. This will scrape the iron oxide off and at the same time the aluminum dust formed will penetrate and react with the rust to form aluminum oxide and iron. I haven't tried this myself. Beware of Mr. Rust Some people have a reputation for rusting everything that they hold. These people have unique body oil. I don't know if it contains metal salts, high moisture content, or low pH. If you have guests in your shop, be careful about letting them handle good steel or tools. You might be the first to discover that Uncle Bert is one of those guys with a corrosive touch. If you have this unique body oil, consider wearing cotton gloves oiled with something like Breakfree CLP to keep your body oils off of tools. Breakfree CLP is a multipurpose teflon oil designed to clean, lubricate, and protect metal. Another approach is to wash your hands and give them a light rub with mineral oil before handling metal. Sources of Supply Anhydrous Lanolin - Many pharmacists, on special order Automobile Paste Wax - Any auto supply store Birchwood Casey Sheath - Brownells (see below) Black Molasses - Many grocery stores Boeshield T9 - McMaster-Carr, Woodworkers Warehouse Bostik Top Cote - Specialty wood tool suppliers such as Woodworkers Warehouse Breakfree CLP - Many gun supply shops including: Brownells Camphor - Many large drug stores. Available as blocks and as Oil of Camphor. Crown 7007 Cold Galvanizing Compound - Wholesale Tool Cratex Rubber Abrasive - Many tool dealers (MSC, Travers Tool, Wholesale Tool) CRC SP-350 - MSC CRC SP-400 - MSC Dillon Case Lube - Many gun stores. For a local dealer call Dillon Precision at 800-762-3845. Dupont Quick-Prep - Auto paint supply stores which sell Dupont paint Gerstner Tool Boxes - Many tool dealers (MSC, Travers Tool, Wholesale Tool) Glean Tech Rust Killer - Bomar Knorrostol - Many tool dealers (Hammar Industrial, Kennametal, MSC). For a local dealer, call SPI at 888-774-8200. Moth Balls - Many hardware and drug stores. Naval Jelly - Most hardware stores. Permatex In-Charge Corrosion Inhibitor - Travers Tool or other Permatex distributors. POR-15 - RestoMotive Laboratories Rust-X - Integrity Industries Sherwin Williams Metal Prep - Auto paint supply stores which sell Sherwin Williams paint. Sodium Carbonate - Swimming pool supply stores. Ask for product to raise water pH. Starrett M1 - Many tool dealers (MSC, Travers, Wholesale Tool) LPS-1 and LPS-3 - Many tool dealers (MSC, Travers, Wholesale Tool) Rust Blocks Vapor Tabs - Brownells VPI Treated Paper - Brownells Way Lube - Many tool dealers (MSC, Travers, Wholesale Tool) WD-40 - Any department store or hardware store Addresses Bomar Corporation (sells Glean Tech Rust Killer) PO Box 80555; Baton Rouge, LA 70898 Phone: 888-264-2626 E-Mail: bomarcorx~xxdemco.net Brownells, Inc. (gunsmithing tools and accessories dealer) 200 South Front Street; Montezuma, IA 50171 Phone: 515-623-5401 E-Mail: brownelusax~xxAol.Com Hammar Industrial Supply (local broad-range supplier) 175 Amherst St; Nashua NH 03060 Phone: 800-388-3232 Integrity Industries (makers of Rust-X) PO Box 5342; Kingsville TX 78383 Phone: 512-595-5561 Kennametal (sells Knorrostol) 1600 Technology Way; Latrobe, PA 15650 Phone: 800-446-7738 E-Mail: dbaldwinx~xxkennametal.com McMaster-Carr Supply (national broad-range supplier) PO Box 440; New Brunswick, NJ 08903-0440 Phone: 908-329-3200 MSC Industrial Supply (national tool supplier) 151 Sunnyside Blvd; Plainview NY 11803-9915 Phone: 800-645-7270 E-Mail: Prod_Infox~xxMSCDirect.Com http://www.mscindustrial.com RestoMotive Laboratories (makers of POR-15) PO Box 1235; Morristown NJ 07962-1235 Phone: 800-457-6715 E-Mail: techsupportx~xxpor15.com Travers Tool (national tool supplier) 128-15 26th Ave; PO Box 541550; Flushing NY 11354-0108 Phone: 800-221-0270 E-Mail: Infox~xxTravers.Com Wholesale Tool (national tool supplier) 12155 Stephens Dr.; PO Box 68; Warren MI 48089 Phone: 800-521-3420 E-Mail: WTMichx~xxAol.Com Woodworkers Warehouse/Trendlines (sells Bostik Top Coat) Many Woodworkers Warehouse retail stores Also by mail at: Trendlines 135 American Legion Highway; Revere MA 02151 Phone: 800-767-9999 Useful Internet Web References Auto Paint FAQ Electrolytic Rust Removal FAQ Metalworking FAQ Model Engineer Support Metal Web News Credits and Disclaimer I have taken much of the above from others, including: Robert Bastow Pete Bellas Kevin Eva Jim Hardman Chris Heapy Scot Heath Russ Kepler Ted Kinsey Dean Lake Randolph Lee Harry Phinney Keith Taylor Doug White Thank you for teaching me. Forgive me if I omitted someone. I tried to check information and test many of the above techniques and materials. However, I have not tried every technique or product listed here. Some may be better than others. I am not affiliated with any company represented here. Please use proper safety precautions when dealing with all chemicals, machines, and other dangerous procedures. I welcome comments, suggestions, and corrections. Email: Bob Neidorff neidorffx~xxunitrode.com Rev: 12/23/98 ------- Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 15:34:33 -0000 From: "outlawmws" Subject: Re: Greg Yotz How Did You Remove The Rust On Your Lathe (was:Yahoo! I used my tool to make a tool I needed....) --- In atlas_craftsmanx~xxy..., Ronald Thibault wrote: > Greg; How did you remove the rust on your lathe? Ron, I don't know how Greg did his but I have been having very good luck with Jasco metal etch. Just keep in mind it is phosphoric acid and used the proper safety measures. The good thing about phosphoric acid is that it is one of the least hazardous acids. Think about it, its in most soft drinks. Not that I'm claiming it's totally benign, but you get the idea. I would be cautious about hi tolerance machined surfaces, but for as cast or non-critical surfaces it's great. I have used it full strength in a bath for small parts by using an old plastic milk carton cut down to make a basin. It could be stored in them too, except the cap is not suitable for hazardous materials. I was able to get some screw top containers, identical in style, from my waste disposal company. They are used for oil recycling. They won't accept regular milk jugs for oil recycling since the top doesn't screw on securely. Rinse the residue thornily with water after the heat dry or spray down with WD-40 or any water displacing light oil to give immediate rust protection. Used diluted as per the package markings it makes a great pre-paint treatment. -Outlaw ------- Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 14:52:42 -0000 From: "wjw2000athotmaildotcom" Subject: Re: Greg Yotz How Did You Remove The Rust On Your Lathe (was:Yahoo! I used my tool to make a tool I needed....) I've been soaking rusty parts in Limeout. Takes a while, but it does remove the surface rust. ------- Date: Sun, 05 May 2002 14:21:31 -0400 From: Ronald Thibault Subject: Re: Re: Greg Yotz How Did You Remove The Rust On Your Lathe (was:Yahoo! I used my tool to make a tool I needed....) At 07:38 PM 4/19/02 +0000, you wrote: >Sorry for the delay in response. I've been out of town for a fly-in >at Lakeland Florida. >I used good ol steel wool and oil. I first cleaned every thing with >mineral spirits(in my engine parts cleaner). This removes old oil >and grease, not rust. WHat I couldn't get in the parts cleaner, I >used an old toothbrush and a margarine bowl with ms in it. Then I >used the steel wool and a light machine oil. I would clean every >thing off every so often with more mineral spirits then start back >in with the wool and oil. Really didn't take that long and I'm sure >of not "hurting" anything this way. >I'm not ready to remove and repaint yet, as I really needed the use >of the lathe. So when I have some down time, I'll strip and repaint. >I need to clean the ways up a little first. I have some wear in the >area of the chuck like most older lathes. So if I snug up the slide >near the chuck it's very tight near the tail stock. So I make >adjustments depending where I'm working at. Greg Thanks! Ron Thibault Warrenville, SC USA http://pages.prodigy.net/thibaultr/ ------- Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 06:51:10 -0700 From: "Marty Escarcega" Subject: Polishing secrets I want to share with you guys a neat secret to polishing tarnished metal. Grungy/rusty machined surfaces. Get a bench grinder, on one side put on a medium/coarse wire wheel. On the other side put on TWO of these: These are stiff scotch brite wheels impregnated with abrasive. It is not super aggressive, so in order to save it, wire wheel off the thick grunge and the use it to polish the metal. 00319921 6"x1/2" Maroon A-Med 3M High Strength Disc $3.83 This pad is cheaper and softer I like running one of these to get into some tighter spots. 00490161 6"x1/2" Maroon 3M High Strength Discs $1.93 Now, if you have the benefit of a variable speed 7" grinder with a hook and loop pad (I have a Makita) use one of these: This thing is tough, like stiff Scotchbrite. Wait until you see what it does with large rusted surfaces. Cuts the rust scale right off. 00319749 Grade SXCS 7 3M Coating Removal Disc $14.73 All of these are available from MSC Industrial Supply, if you don't have their BIG BLUE BOOK catalog you all should. They also sell handwheels, levers, balls, knobs you name it. http://www.mscindustrial.com/ Last thing, none of the above like sharp edges, while unavoidable, learn to have the wheels rub off the edge instead of rubbing up onto the edge. They will last longer. They do last quite a while if cared for. When they get too small, I get more use out of them by putting them on a die grinder with a mandrel I built. Just a tip for old iron restorers. Marty ------- Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 10:48:53 -0000 From: "casy_ch " Subject: Re: Polishing secrets Hi Marty, I am very interested by that secret. I am renovating a 1927 engine lathe, sandblasting the parts, but no cabin large enough to fit the bed and the feet. I have been using spring wire discs which are very fast to get down to the iron cast, but absolutely no good in recesses. They break on the spot (cheap chinese ware) and are then dangerous without wearing a shield. When going to the site of MSC, I find only pages 883-888 and 897-897 but do not find the descriptions you habe been giving. Could you please mail the adress of the pages you mean. Thank you. Happy and healthy New Year to you and all the Group members Jean-Claude, Switzerland www.homestead.com/turnandmill ------- Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 07:11:48 -0700 From: "Marty Escarcega" Subject: Re: Digest Number 376 The numbers I quote are actual part numbers. Perhaps a search on the MSC part number will turn up the info you are looking for. Personally, I would send the bed and legs out for sandblasting. Anything too big for my cabinet goes to a good local sandblaster. Marty ------- Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 11:04:18 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Polishing secrets I have started cleaning up the Rockford. The ways have a coat of rust on them from being stored in a warehouse without heat/AC in Houston. I started to go get the scotchbrite that Marty recommended but thought I would try the steel wool and wd40 route first (since I already had that and nothing is open this morning anyway!). Low and behold, the light rust came right off the ways, and below it is the original scraping marks, still clearly visible! I am still going to get the scotchbrite, there is way too much surface that needs attention to use the steel wool everywhere, but I am pretty happy with how easily the ways cleaned offwith the steel wool and WD40. Maybe a safe approach is to use the steel wool/WD40 (or some other light hydrocarbon for a lubricant) to do the initial cleaning, and if more is needed then use the Scotchbrite? There is probably a judgement call there, but it sure didn't take much effort to get through the light rust on the ways with the steel wool/WD40. By the way, anyone have any good ideas for what to do with about 25 gallons of some pretty grungy hydraulic fluid? Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 12:07:33 -0600 From: "Ray Ethridge" Subject: Re: Polishing secrets >> Do you have any gravel roads around your place? Or for weed control along a fence line. Joe Williams << Ahh, yes, but that was before the EPA Joe! If I was to get caught doing that stuff even out in the country they would string me up! Ray Ethridge ------- Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 13:53:20 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Polishing secrets 1 use as hardening quench, 2 . mix w/ lard ,50/50 , for old tyme mineral lard oil, 3.....by the light of the moon, pour on ur dirt/gravel drive to keep the dust down ( yes young uns, we really did do that ,county trucks regularly spewed it out )... 4 . use it to start ur trash fires ..5 do some bartering w/" Rocco the torch" 6 ...donate it to fire dept. for training exercises 7 gift wrap 5 gal. containers & leave it in ur pickup bed when u go to a mall in the worst part of town....... best wishes for 2003. docn8as. ------- Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 16:30:18 -0700 From: "Orrin Iseminger" Subject: Re: Help! From: "tdt128" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2003 3:37 PM Subject: [sherline] Help! > Back again looking for some help. Someone gave me an OLD piece > of machinery which is mostly of brass BUT, the fastenerns were steel > and all the bolts, nuts, pins, Etc. have rusted in place with the > resulting mess. My question is, is there a way to remove these things > from the brass short of drilling them out? These are 1/16" pins, 2- > 56; 4-40 bolts, and other rather small pieces. The smaller items have > all but disappered, and there is no way to grab them. I should > mention that some have blind holes. I have already tried WD-40, and > other liquids that I would rather not mention. Any help would be > greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! Tom Use acid to get rid of the rust. Then, use a saturated solution of alum (in the spice department at your supermarket) to dissolve the remaining iron. You'll have to immerse the item in the alum solution. It may take a couple of weeks. Orrin ------- Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 13:10:36 -0700 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: Cleaning ways [atlas_craftsman group] > What is the recommended way to clean the surface rust off of the > ways and lead screw? Thanks! I just brought a lathe back into service that had surface rust on the ways. I like to KILL the rust with a phosphate acid (ospho) and a scotch-brite pad. Do a small section at a time, and do not work the solution for more than a few minutes before wiping down with a rag. Carefull with the acid.. it will remove parent material. Cleam well and let the surface dry overnight. Polish with fine scotch-brite and a "WD_40" like lubricant. Cleanup with laq thinner and white rags, apply way oil. Many will flame this approach (phosphate acid) as too harsh, but it has served me well. NEVER use a wire brush, sandpaper, abrasive blasting, and cleanup well after tool grinding operations. Make sure your carriage wipers are adjusted properly. ------- Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 21:31:52 -0500 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Cleaning ways > I like to KILL the rust with a phosphate acid (ospho) and a scotch-brite I will discourage, but not flame, this approach. I have reasons, not at all about "harshness" per se. All the methods are "harsh", it is RUST, after all. The precision surface is already DESTROYED, you are in "salvage mode". The main problem I have with it is that the acid will etch the surface to a sandpaper-like surface finish. You have no control over what is removed and what is not. The other methods, like steel wool, will leave linear scratches, which are pretty much like what would be on the ways anyhow. They are not as destructive to the "slidability" as a rough surface. And, it is hard to remove much material with even sandpaper. At least it is when you WANT to remove a couple tenths.............. Also, phosphoric leaves the surface so clean that if you leave it for 20 minutes, never mind overnight, the surface will have orange dusty rust on it AGAIN. The oil rubbed finish given by steel wool etc will not rust for several months, depending on exposure. I would NOT use most types of sandpaper, it will drop grit. The steel wool does drop strands, but they are generally much easier to clean off afterwards. A few bonded coatings may hold the grit, but it will still fracture off. That said, I HAVE used wet-or-dry type sandpaper, and had no noticeable problems Incidentally, I generally use WD-40 as the light oil for the process. it has enough cutting action to work much better than a "real" lubricant oil. Doesn't say much for it's lubricant properties though........... Jerrold ------- Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 20:44:44 -0700 From: "Patrick Lee Rooney" Subject: RE: Cleaning ways Ospho has a very dilute phosphate base, and is actually considered a PRIMER. Once dry, the parts can remain rust free for months. I am not talking about soaking the ways for an hour is undilute acid! The bed in question was actually a 30 year old NOS purchase with some light surface rust, and the procedure and product was recommended by the machine tool dealer. It is dead nuts accurate, lubed with way oil, and rust free for about 8 weeks now. It worked for me, and I would recommend it...for the ways only. Of course, the best solution is to keep the machine rust free in the first place. ------- NOTE TO FILE: Remember there is another big text file called Lubricants General where there are extensive helpful ideas as to which products are best in particular applications. And yes there are different opinions. Some are very well argued and documented. No single product does everything well, at least not for very long. ------- Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 23:19:41 EDT From: LouD31M066x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Cleaning ways Take a look at what you will have in end before you begin. If ways are worn badly removing rust may not be best use of time and effort. It may pay you to look into having ways surface ground (or some might prefer hand scraped.) A complete tear down and cleaning of a newly acquired used machine can reveal much that a preliminary inspection overlooked. When you have it apart you can decide what parts need replacement and incorporate them into reassembly. When you see what makes up a lathe you will understand how the whole is more than the sum of its parts. Btw a newly ground bed is a joy to behold and it is equally joyful to use. When you turn the handle it no longer goes stick, stick, stick --- it now goes slick, slick, slick. Louis ------- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 10:52:13 -0400 From: "mertbaker" Subject: Re: Confirmation & introduction With 50 years in the gun biz, I've had rust to remove aplenty. To get it all off quickly, immerse in dilute phosphoric acid. This is available in auto parts stores under various names. I don't use it right out of the jug, but dilute it with water 1:1. Watch your parts carefully, & remove & rinse well with water as soon as the rust is gone. This treatment is only for serious rust, pitting, etc. It will remove any old blue left, also. There will be ultra fine surface pitting from the acid, but this will polish right out with the #240 grit wheel. For fine surface rust, #10 or 20 motor oil & 0000 steel wool. If more abrasion is needed, Scotchbrite pads work well, but will dull the original polish, where the steel wool & oil won't. In fact this combo won't remove the original blue, just the rust. I have, over the years, tried most of the magic folk removers, but have settled on the above. Mert ------- Subject: Re: Metal - How to "Finish"?? From: Jim Thompson Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 12:49:55 -0800 On Tuesday, February 24, Bob Nelson wrote: > Hi Andrew, > I don't know how Naval Jelly might be bad otherwise, but it sure leaves > iron looking like he**. I never used in on iron/steel again after the > first time solely on that basis. But it did use up most of what was > left cleaning brass; it's actually pretty good for that. I have to disagree. I use phosphoric acid exclusively for rust removal. You just ain't doing it right. Tools put into a phosphoric bath need to be constantly agitated, and/or brushed constantly with a plastic brush. When you reach the point where there is still patina but the rust is gone, or mostly gone, you stop and rinse with water and the brush again. The result is a tool which does not look as if it has been over cleaned. If you just leave the tool in the acid and come back the next day it isn't going to look pretty, I agree. But my method works. I did not like the over cleaned look of tools put through the electrolysis process. I stopped using it for that reason. I don't want to remove EVERYTHING! And that is my 2 cents worth. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 00:18:41 -0000 From: volzmechatronicx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: New Logan shaper. Info please. --- In Metal_Shapersx~xxyahoogroups.com, "johnrouche" wrote: > I may take a part to the paint store and have them color match it. > There are areas that definitely need paint. John-- A computer match would be the right way. And then buy the best paint you can find. > I have already placed some of the bare metal parts in > my "soda/battery charger" bucket for a quick de-rusting. No major > rust, just that fine powder that can accumulate. The nice thing > about the soda soak is it doesn't attack the good metal. No rust on > the slides which is important. Also check out Bill H's site-- http://www.homeshopsupply.com --he has an interesting, illustrated with PIX, article about removing rust using HCL acid (Muriatic Acid) that is cheaply available from places like Home Depot, Lowe's, and others. I haven't used his method before, but I intend on getting a jug either tonite or manana...might even get a jug with HCL in it too. :-) Got some old Armstrong tool holders that need cleaning. > Time to go back down and check the "Brew" It's time for me to knock the tops off of a couple myself: Lone Star, the National beer of Texas. :-) Art (Houston) ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 03:47:11 -0500 From: Dan Subject: Re: Re: New Logan shaper. Info please. I have used the muratic and it works pretty well. It will tend to eat at the grain and leave a grainy appearance if it has to be left in a long time. I have removed some pretty heavy rust with it. If you have two parts frozen together it might loosen them. I have had it free stuff that penetrating oil wouldn't get. But once it is free, dissasemble it or it will corrode back and be stuck worse than ever. Don't breath the fumes. Do it outside. Just put the piece in and leave it. Go away. Come back to check on it. I have gotten very sick, twice, from this stuff. And it didn't happen right off. There was a 24 hour delay. ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 13:57:43 EST From: n8as1x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re:muriatic acid > have used the muratic and it works pretty well. It will tend to eat at > the grain and leave a grainy appearance if it has to be left in a long > time. I have removed some pretty heavy rust with it. used to routinely use a quick dip before blueing gun parts , allowed hardened parts to color blue ,rather than red, ....it will etch , depending on time ..allowing cold rust blues to "bite" , & creates a satin ( ersatz olde tyme rust blue) finish w/ the hot caustic process ....it WILL etch if left in sol........ best wishes docn8as ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 19:20:48 -0000 From: "johnrouche" Subject: Re: New Logan shaper. Info please. I have used various acid based rust removal techniques over the year. For my Shaper I only use the electrolytic process with Arm and Hammer super washing soda and a small battery charger. I already did the tool head yesterday. I disassembled it including the small parts and laid everything on a piece of old sheet metal. That stuff gets the neg. lead and another piece of sheet metal gets the pos. lead. After about five hours it was done. I removed it and gave a final rinse under fresh water. I used a s.s. brush to buff up the dials and knurls. Then went in the vice complete without disassembly. I left it in over night at about 5 amps of trickle charge. It was disassembled and given the wire brush to the parts I want shiny. When the parts are removed they have a slight oily feel to them so immediate oiling is not as critical as with acid but still oil the parts. Next is going to be the table, all at once. I will leave it in there all day. It's not extremely rusted but I have other things to do. You can leave parts "cookin" for days without worry of metal erosion. The process does not eat into the good parent metal, just the rust. I have used this on heavily rusted parts as well and it seems to work even quicker. Also, if you are in a hurry you can turn up the current and the process speeds up. For large sheet metal sections too large for my 20 gal. tub I use a phosphoric acid solution. It leaves a phosphate coating on the part after it dries that protects it until finishing. A commercially available product called Must for rust is sold in some auto refinishing supply houses (no affiliation). Anyway, rust, no longer a pain. John P.S. What I like about this system is that it is safe for hand, kids, pets and the environment (not a tree hugger). The soda is available in stores. If not on the shelf have the manager special order it. The UPC is 33200-03020. I have also tried the lye as an electrolyte while waiting for the soda to arrive. It seemed to be more aggressive to the rust but its also a pain to work with. Basically your just making an electrolytic solution with either an acid or a base. Please look at the links supplied below. The second link is a great page. http://www.bhi.co.uk/hints/rust.htm http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 14:07:13 -0800 From: "Don Kinzer" Subject: RE: Re: New Logan shaper. Info please. > I take it, this soda is available at the supermarket? Be sure you get washing soda (sodium carbonate) not baking soda (sodium bicarbonate). The former is a stronger base than the latter. Washing soda will generally be found with the other cleaners while baking soda will be found on the baking aisle. ------- Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2004 23:51:47 -0500 (EST) From: Woodchuck Subject: Re: Re:muriatic acid I've also used boric acid ("eye wash") as strong as can be dissolved to etch small parts, it produces a "frog hair" satin-matte surface suitable for instrument work or guns. Takes a while, and you need to "pay attention" to it. It also removes rust, it is something I would try on a rusty micrometer, say, before going to stronger stuff. Can be heated. Dunno about blueing afterwards, but I learned of it from a book on blueing. Dave ------- Subject: Re: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q [OldTools list] From: hunter.coxx~xxinfilcodegremont.com Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:00:20 -0500 I just got my electrolysis rig up last week and have been impressed. I just use a 5-gallon bucket, get the WASHING SODA and dump a little bit (1-2 tablespoons) into the water - got the washing soda at the local grocery (I think they need to be well-stocked to carry it) and used an old file for the sacrificial electrode. For the power supply, a $20 battery charger (12 VDC/6A) is what I use, got it a W*L M*art in the automotive seciton. I just use some binding wire (I think it is zinc-plated steel) that is easily bent to hang the parts for zapping in the tank off a wood dowel I put across the top. The file that is sacrificial, it is just the right height for the bucket so the tang is even with the top, I just clamped it with the battery charger clip to the side of the bucket. They say that you get better contact if you wire brush/grind the contact surfaces a little. A lot of places talk about using SS as the electrode, but other sites say that makes the resulting waste liquid dangerous (chromium, etc). Hunter in Richmond ------- Subject: RE: Electrolytic Rust Removal Q From: "Meltsner, Kenneth" Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2004 15:55:26 -0500 If you want to try a lower amperage supply, you could try cutting the amount of washing soda (or other additions) -- that should increase the resistance of the bath and cut the amount of current flowing. Of course, it will also run slower if there's less current. There will also be more voltage drop in the bath, but that's probably not a terrible thing since 12 volts is way more than is needed to reduce iron oxide to iron. Ken ------- Subject: An alternate rust removal process [oldtools list] From: "Roger Turnbough" Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:02:05 -0500 GG's, while browsing on WoodCentral this morning, came across an alternate way of derusting our tools. While I have not tried this myself, it looks worthy enough to look into. Especially considering the effects that electrolysis has on our iron. http://tinyurl.com/69dhv Hope this can help someone out. Roger South of Chicago [Note: the essence of the suggestion at that URL follows] >> Subject: Another answer from Oz Posted By: Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA arbuchx~xxsonic.net Date: Thursday, 16 September 2004, at 11:19 a.m. In Response To: Calling all chemists (Bill Houghton, Sebastopol, CA) Ron Fenton, who apparently lurks here, sent me the e-mail below, with permission to post it (Ron: GREAT information. You should step up to the table and post more often). << >>> I am a chemist (qualifications in metallurgy, PhD in Inorganic Chemistry and a retired University Lecturer) and have tried all known chemical methods for rust removal (electrolysis, phosphoric acid, salt/vinegar, EDTA etc) I have been successfully using citric acid for rust removal from old tools for a number of years now. I took the idea from my grandmother who used to use citric acid (lemon juice) for removing rust stains from clothes. I have cleaned planes, saws, squares, bevel gauges etc. I am a hopeless collector of rust and seem to be always cleaning something since I retired. The chemistry is fairly simple, the rust (iron oxide) is solublised by the acid (ammonium ion is also acidic) and the citrate ion coordinates to the iron ion forming soluble iron citrate. How do you do it? I make a solution containing about 10% citric acid, obtained from the cake cooking stuff at the supermarket. Add a bit of alcohol (methylated spirits, ethanol, rubbing alcohol) it does not matter which, it is only to break down surface tension, and a squirt or two of detergent. The article to be cleaned must be absolutely free from grease or it will not work. I use auto thinners or petroleum spirits depending on whether the item is painted etc. Soak item for a few hours and give it a scrub with a green Brillo pad under running water. Repeat as required. Some badly rusted items will need soaking overnight. Advantages: environmentally friendly, non-hazardous, non-toxic, does not affect paint japanning, plating etc. Solution can be reused many times, just add some more citric acid. Disadvantages: slower than electrolysis (but much safer). Solution grows some biological slime on storage but I just strain it off. The method can be used for things such as ebony/rose wood and brass squares etc without affecting the brass or wood. I hope that this answers your question and if you have any further questions please contact me. You can post the content of this email if you find it useful. Regards, Ron Fenton <<< ------- Subject: re: Citric acid help please From: "Greg Hahn" Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 01:49:44 -0000 OK, something right up my alley: I am a winemaker. We use citric acid to adjust the acidity of the wine just before bottling. Citric is not Acetic, Ascorbic(Vitamin C) or any acid not spelled c-i-t-r-i-c. If there is a winery or food processing plant in your area, you can probably bum 4-5 pounds of the stuff for a dollar or so. We get it in 100 lb. sacks. Or try a home beer/winemaking store. That said, I personally prefer using 5 grain strength distilled white vinegar (2 gallons at Costco for 5-6 dollars. Citric forms a "glaze" on steel if left too long, whereas vinegar acetic acid) is milder and seems to get under the rust and make it come off with a little scrubbing of a scotch pad, without attacking the rest of the metal. ------- Subject: Citeic acid follow up From: "Steve lineback" Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:55:10 -0000 Galoots. First I finally found citric acid at the health food store. What was supposedly pure stuff (they break bulk down into smaller packages so no label) was $3.50 a pound. I used it on a standard cut file, a 12 inch cabinet rasp, a chip breaker and a very heavily rusted 1/2 inch chisel. The file and rasp were rusty but not pitted and came out better than my experiments with zapping. Took about four hours. The chipbreaker had light surface rust and came out much cleaner and shinier than with zapping. The chisel soaked overnight and the rust was gone but was a funny pewter color. I have had this before on older heavily corroded parts. I think that this is easier than the zap tank and though it takes longer since you can do several pieces at once it evens out. I'll post any further experiments and want to find a tank big enough for a saw blade. Finally if you have an open cut or abrasion on your hand the solution will let you know it. Steve [later] I started with the one tablespoon per pint as recommended in one of the wood central postings. The solution is not saturated as nothing has settled out. One of the Galoots recommended going to saturation and I may as an experiment. The thing I'm most impressed with so far is that the residue is much easier to get off on files and rasps. Running water seems to remove most of it (I used the squirter on the kitchen sink). I see no evidence that this will hurt anything so far but I'm going to dunk a plane body tonight to see what it does to the japanning [black original finish]. Now if I can just find a rusty plane. ------- Subject: Re: Citric acid follow up From: Steven Longley Date: Wed, 6 Oct 2004 20:53:34 -0700 (PDT) GG's: I tried the citric acid rust removal on a Stanley framing square that has had little respect from its current owner (oops, that would be me). I found powdered citric acid at a compounding pharmacy here locally - it wasn't exactly cheap, but I decided to go for it. The formula that I used was one heaping tablespoon of citric acid, 10 tablespoons of water, one drop of dishwashing liquid, and a teaspoon of denatured alcohol. I was shooting for around a 10% citric acid solution by volume (if one of you Chem-Galoots can give me a better method of measure I would be much obliged). Since a square is flat I decided that I could just lay it out on a work table and coat/clean one side. That way I would have a before side and after side for comparison. I used a foam brush to apply the solution and since it was exposed to the air and evaporation, I renewed it a couple of times over a 2-hour period. I used a paper towel to remove the resulting sludge and then buffed it somewhat vigorously with a dry paper towel. I neutralized it with water and dried it off. I'm impressed with the ease of the process and the lack of mess. I'm sure that I will be making a run to Lowes [HARDWARE STORE] in search of those plastic containers [BALCONY PLANTER BOXES] that were mentioned earlier. Steve (looking at rusty iron in a new light) in Dallas ------- Subject: Re: Citric acid fans, ahoy! From: Mark Marsay Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2004 21:05:52 +0100 >>> What do you do about de-rusting tools with wooden parts? I have a seriously grotty corner brace to work on, for instance, as well as a bunch of other tools the handles, pads, or stocks of which won't come off without serious damage. In general, I'd be loath to soak wooden parts in any aqueous solution--so what to you foks who like the citric acid bath method do? Or, for that matter, you fans of electrozapping? John Wadsworth Delhi, NY <<< If the wood is beat up I just drop it in anyways - got a stanley square with a rosewood stock in terrible condition in the bath as I type! I give the wood a good coat of hot wax first - makes a good seal. Great source of hot wax is the stuff women use for their fuzz removal! Regards, Mark Marsay, ------- NOTE TO FILE: There were many follow-ups of successful use of this method. ------- Subject: Re: Citric acid..a word of caution & ? [oldtools list] From: Anthony Seo Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:46:06 -0400 At 12:13 PM 10/20/04, Jack Kamishlian wrote: >OK Todd, Do you clean your tools the old-fashioned way with scotch >brite and WD-40 or a similar lubricating oil like I have been doing? >Or what? Inquiring minds, etc. Well here at ye Olde River, we have a big tank of a new product that we invented and are going for the patent rights on called "Make-Em-Pretty" tm. I just dump the tools in and let them sit over nite and all the rust is gone and the metal parts are soaked with special penetrating oil. Wooden hammer and chisel handles come out will all the paint removed and a nice coat of wax on them. Chisel backs are cleaned and flattened. Matter of fact if I leave a chisel in there without a handle a second nite, dang if it won't grow a new one! Great for planes and saws too. Yepper don't take no time at t'all to "Make-Em-Pretty" I don't need all that sand paper, wire brush, scrubbing pads, paint stripper, penetrating oil, brass polish, and Butchers Wax that I used to use. Matter of fact the local hardware store is seriously considering closing since I stopped buying all that stuff. I'll let y'all know when it's available for purchase. Tony Olde River Hard Goods 350 West Catawissa Street Nesquehoning PA 18240 570-669-9421 http://www.oldetoolshop.com ------- Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 23:40:18 -0600 From: "jerdal" Subject: Re: Re: Rusty Atlas Bed [as to whether Scotchbrite is too abrasive here] I think you are way over-reacting.....I can prove it..... Think for a minute.....you would have to remove quite a bit of material to "destroy accuracy". Certainly a tenth, probably considerably more. Your bed would be considered "perfect and new" if it had only 4 tenths of a thou wear on it. You'd be braggin about your great find...... Now, you get a piece of iron or steel a half inch wide and 5 inches long. Measure it carefully to the nearest tenth in thickness. Then get out your scotchbrite, and rub like crazy. For that matter, get out some 600 grit paper, and rub like crazy. When your fingers ar tired, clean it off and measure again.......odds are that you won't be able to reliably measure the amount you took off. I know that when I WANT to remove a thou with sandpaper, it is darn hard work. Scotchbrite is not as capable of removing metal as sandpaper. I hand-scrape to flats, etc, when I restore equipment. I can tell you that with a carbide edged scraper, working hard, it takes a while to remove a half thou over a larger area. Now think about a rusty bed way.....how long do you rub it? Long enough to get the rust off, then you stop, right? If hard work doesn't remove enough to measure, on a small piece, how much does removing the rust and immediately stopping remove? Oh, and also, how about that rust....? Didn't THAT "destroy accuracy" to any degree? The rust removed iron by converting it to iron oxide, which you have to remove in turn. Nope, if you need to remove rust, use what works, and don't sweat it. If you need to use 400 grit paper, go ahead, although I would probably prefer 600 grit or scotchbrite, actually, just because of the finish. BTW, "wet-or-dry" paper holds its grit, don't use open coat paper on a machine, it sheds grit. JT ------- Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 16:37:45 -0700 From: "Bill Rittner" Subject: [OldTools] Electrolysis Re-visited Pt 1 There has been some interest in the method I now use for electrolytic rust removal. So I am posting a link to the site that got me started on my current method. If you are happy with your present method of electrolysis then there is no need for you to read any further. However, if your electrolysis tank looks like an old septic tank after one tool and you are not in a hurry then you can start at the link below. http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/andyspatch/rust.htm#intro Read this article completely and thoroughly. All the info you need is here. Don't be put off by the purpose built power supply. It is not needed. What is needed is patience as electrolytic rust removal, when done to its best advantage, is a slow process but one that does not need to be attended. Bill Rittner R & B ENTERPRISES Manchester, CT ------- Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 05:39:22 -0500 (CDT) From: roygriggsx~xxvalornet.com Subject: [OldTools] Re:Metal color after citric acid derustification GG, Dwight asks... > However, I noticed that all the different pieces (brace bits, calipers, plane iron) ended up with the same battleship gray color. This is correct? < Yes Dwight, that is what happens. I buff the parts with a Scotch Bright pad after rinsing and drying and the gray goes away...see this http://www.shavingsandsawdust.com/projects/planeCleaning/index.asp Roy Griggs www.shavingsandsawdust.com ------- Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 15:28:34 -0700 From: Kirk Eppler Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re:Metal color after citric acid derustification Yes, but I've been doing e-zap, not per Bill Rittner but some other site I found eons ago, and then give them a dunk in the CA bath when complete. The CA seems to reduce the gray from e-zap, but a good scrubbing (grey scotch- brite) really seems to help that graying problem. Will post some later, just did a fleet of craftsman by MF planes over the last few days off. Kirk Eppler Process Development Engineering ------- Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 10:10:44 +1000 From: Peter Robinson Subject: Re: [OldTools] That grey color... All knowing ones... so what is that grey colour? I have searched the archives and the only mention I have found so far is in a note from Jim Cook back in 1997 http://www.frontier.iarc.uaf.edu/~cswingle/archive/get.phtml?mes sage_id=32282 > If there was any pitting, the bottoms of the pits will have > black residue in them, so the result will be gray. I have been looking closely at the surface of some tools I have given the citric acid treatment but have not subsequently scrubbed. I wish I had some way to view them microscopically, but to my eye, the surface seems to be covered with tiny pits - really tiny. The brace (an all metal spofford chuck brace) that I am looking at does not have any of the type of pitting that Jim referred to. It only had light surface rust before treatment and was more an experiment in general cleaning than significant rust removal. The surface now looks like it is completely covered with the tiny pits. It is my conjecture that the citric acid removes the tiny fingers of rust that were working their way into the structure of the metal, thus leaving an irregular surface. The irregularity of the surface scatters light in all directions and so the lack of reflection either causes or adds to that dull grey look. Scrubbing after the cleaning presumably polishes the surface and gives some reflective quality back but the tiny pits are probably still there and reducing the directly reflected light. Of course that's all just observation and imagination on my part - does anybody have a decent reference? regards, Peter ------ NOTE TO FILE: Descriptions of rust removal by electrolysis in this file are useful, but visiting WoodCentral's website will give you both a description of the process along with a series of pictures in an article "The Chemistry of Cleaning Rusty Iron by Electrolysis" written by Bill Tindall and Spencer Hochstetler which you can find in the handtools section of WoodCentral's main index of articles and reviews: http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl Then spend at least an hour to read just a few of the other many (many!) articles. A truly amazing resource for metalworkers as well as woodworkers and craftspeople in general. Enjoy, and bookmark. ------- Rust on my Myford! [MyMyford] Posted by: "Larry Heyda" larryedax~xxembarqmail.com Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 4:06 pm ((PDT)) Hi, Last month I was in Birmingham, England, and I spotted a Super7 in beautiful condition. Paid handsomely for it and packed it up Well, I had it sent by sea freight. Today I cracked open the box, and to my dismay, found a lot of crusty rust on many surfaces! My new Myford! Of course, I steel wooled it off, but there is now that characteristic grey stain where it was shiny before. Any suggestions on how to restore it to its Birmingham beauty? Larry ------- Re: Rust on my Myford! Posted by: "Rich Dean" cmsteamx~xxspeedfactory.net Date: Sat Nov 3, 2007 5:54 pm ((PDT)) Larry, An excellent method that does no damage (metal removal) to remove rust is the electrolytic method. This can be done with a sock containing a bit of copper wire and saturated with baking soda (sodium bicarbonate). Washing soda will also do. The wire is connected to a low voltage source positive terminal and the metal part to be cleaned to the negative terminal. A small (non automtic battery charger can be used. Don't use a battery as a short circuit will be hazardous to you or the part. Rub the sock about the rusty metal surface and you will see the rust disappear leaving a soft black soot that will rub off. Recharge the sock often with fresh solution. Small items can be immersed in the solution with a steel anode to complete the circuit. There are many references of this on the web. RichD ------- Rusty saddle [was Re: Rust on my Myford!] Posted by: "Larry Heyda" larryedax~xxembarqmail.com Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 11:48 am ((PST)) Hi, I wrote before about the discovery of lots of rust after shipping it from England. Most of the rust is on top of the saddle. As I said before, I've steel wooled off the rust, but the once beautiful surface is now covered by huge blotches of gray stains from the rust. Could I have the whole surface lightly machined off? Or lay it on fine sandpaper and rub back and forth? It's really bugging me. Help. Larry ------- Re: Rusty saddle Posted by: "peter104223" p.neillx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 12:09 pm ((PST)) Larry, have you tried using a fine scotchbrite with some oil? That may help a bit. If you really want to use some very fine emery cloth (not sandpaper) then oil it up and use it gently. I doubt you'll need to rub off more than a few tenths if what you have left is just a stain from some very light rusting. Peter ------- Re: Rusty saddle Posted by: "IAN BARKER" ian.barkerx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 3:14 pm ((PST)) How far in has the rust gone? I had some surface rust on my lathe and was very pleased with the results I got cleaning it with neat cutting oil and a stiff brush. Can't remember the name of the oil but I think it was made by Q8. Ian Barker ------- Re: Rusty saddle Posted by: "Larry Heyda" larryedax~xxembarqmail.com Date: Sun Nov 4, 2007 5:07 pm ((PST)) Thanks for the suggestions, Ian and Peter. I was really surprised. The ocean voyage took only 12 days, and the lathe was in a closed wooden box wrapped with plastic wrap, and this box was in a large shipping container. But somehow those twelve days built up a real crusty layer whereever it could find a spot of bare metal. Anyway, not to bore everybody with my woes. I'll try your suggestions and see what happens. Larry ------- Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 21:06:19 GMT From: "pedger66x~xxjuno.com" Subject: [OldTools] citric cilliness Galoots, I took the plunge (well, a plane did) yesterday and tried the citric acid thing. So far I am pleased with the results. This seems cleaner, easier, and less complicated than the electrolysis I was using. I do have one question. Folks have mentioned not leaving the metal in the solution too long. How do you tell if it is too long? What does that look like? I have a piece that is clean now except for 3-4 small spots of intense rust. I'd like to leave it in until those are gone. What say ye? TIA, Phil E. ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 09:17:45 +1100 From: "Peter Evans" Subject: RE: [OldTools] citric cilliness Phil, citric eats metal as well as rust. Therefore hot, strong, quick are the principles. If you leave tool in the solution for a long time you will get tiny pitting in the good metal, as well as get rid of the deeper rust. Citric will not penetrate deep hard rust on cast iron, for example legs of a cast iron stand that had sat in damp soil for 40 years. Best practice is to check the tool often, cleaning each time you remove from the solution; scrubbing the affected area with a wire brush helps to dislodge the rust. If takes more than one hour to derust, then you have a deeply pitted tool. Cheers Peter in Sydney ------- Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:20:06 -0500 From: Tim Pendleton Subject: Re: [OldTools] citric cilliness When using citric acid, I periodically give the extra rusty areas a quick scrub with an old toothbrush. Popping loose heavy rust lets the solution get to the root of the problem more quickly. With any acid, less is probably more. Electrolysis stops working when the rust is converted. It is my understanding that acid continues to work. Tim ------- Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:36:03 -0800 (PST) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: [OldTools] Re: citric cilliness Phil and Galoots: Don't try to dig out deep rust pits with citric acid. I made this mistake and it was a big one. Left a nice scorp in the solution for over twelve hours, checking it periodically to see if two or three deep pits had finally been cleaned out. The pits never did get cleared to the bottom, but the citric acid produced a lot of new tiny pits on the hardened steel at the edge (not so bad, I think, in the soft steel it was welded to). I don't know how long is too long (though I have more recently left things in, with hesitation and checking, for a couple of hours), but I would say you should use citric acid for clearing away the majority of the rust but dig out the last few stubborn spots individually. Less a matter of time than of understanding what it can do and what it can't. I've put in tools that I would have sworn were almost destroyed because of the thick red coating, and had then come out almost perfect, just needing a bit of steel wool to get off the black gunk. But I don't push it too far any more. Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 06:37:17 -0800 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: citric cilliness On Jan 19, 2008, Bretton Wade wrote: > So, uh, what's a realistic source for citric acid? > Bretton Wade (aka Noz Moe King) in Parkton, MD I get mine from a local home brew supply store. Last time I bought it it cost about $15 for 5 pounds. And by the way, I now use about half of that 5 pounds in 4 gallons of warm water. That seems to be a strength that gets the job done in a reasonable time. Jim Thompson, the old millrat in Riverside, CA. ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 09:15:12 -0600 From: "Joseph Sullivan" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Re: citric cilliness Paul, Breton and all: Sure, citric acid works, phosphoric acid works, even the acetic acid in vinegar works, as does electrolysis. Question is, why take the bother and/or risk? Evaporust is now available at Auto Zone, Lee Valley, and on the web. Good prices can be had. It takes from a few hours to a day or so (with the worst), but it des not etch, it is non-toxic, it does not irritate skin, and you can safely and legally pour the spent solution into your flower beds (and I have) or down your drain. I just keep about a gallon of it in a drywall mud bucket and drop in tools as necessary. As the stuff evaporates, you just put in more water. For saws and other long stuff, I bought two heavy plastic drawer liners, cut off one end of each and fastened them with waterproof tape. Last Sunday I found a very expensive pair of side-cutting wire dykes lying in a pasture where GIT had dropped them over a year ago. They were a corroded mess, rust welded and useless. It took two days in the solution and a wee bit of steel wool, followed by some Parts-Blaster to loosen the hinge, but they are now slightly pitted, but perfectly functional and look fine. I have also taken the rust out of a 19th century kettle that nothing else would do (and I feared acid) because the metal was thin on the bottom), and have cleaned up old dug and deeply corroded ranch relics such as hand forged rings and hooks -- along with many other tools. Cheers! J Joseph Sullivan ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 09:28:42 -0600 From: Marcus Ward Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: citric cilliness You can pour citric acid down the drain, does not irritate your skin, and is non toxic. I've never had it etch a tool but I also keep an eye on things and take them out when they're clean (I'm impatient). It's also about 1/5th the price. You can also legally pour it down the drain or into your flowerbed. I'm just sayin... ;) M ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 12:13:24 -0500 From: "Gary Katsanis" Subject: Rust Removal (was Fw: [OldTools] Re: citric cilliness) I tried citric acid. I have this awful tendency to get interrupted, and once I left a tool in a fairly strong solution for about a week. When I got back to it, the tool had kind-of a frosted white surface, rather than the specular reflection of tool steel. I still use it, but I'm a lot more careful now. I like electrozapping tools; I've found that if I get them out and clean them right away under running water with a grey or white 3M pad, then dry and wax promptly, I have good results. I also have some control over patina - if I rub hard for a longer time, I get a brighter surface; if I rub less, it's still flat and smooth, but more character and patina remains. You can tell it's been zapped of course, but it's quantum levels better than rustoleum and belt sanding. That said, what kind of surface does Evaporust leave? Does it leave a bright, just machined look? Does it preserve any character? Before and after pictures would be nice, if available. Eager to learn as always, Gary K Close to Buffalo NY, USA ------- Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2008 18:59:25 -0600 From: "Joseph Sullivan" Subject: RE: Rust Removal (was Fw: [OldTools] Re: citric cilliness) Gary: Evaporust leaves a grey carbon film that can be washed off with mineral spirits or even soap and water with a nylon pad. The resulting finish ranges from dull steel grey to bright steel, depending on how motivated you feel. It also depends on the steel or iron you are cleaning. The best tool steels come out with the most carbon film. In fact, you can see the union between the tool steel and milder steel. I once linked pix of that on an old mortising chisel I cleaned. I have done several heavily rusted saw blades. They come out silver grey, and are of course not bright if the rust was on them for a while and spoiled the finish. I bought a very rusty Disston #4 backsaw from Bruce when he closed his shop. After treatment and then waxing with Renaissance, it is still grey and of course pitted, but I have sharpened it and was using it effortlessly today to make white oak countertops. If Brie remembers that saw, he can attest that it had a hard life before he rescued it. On the other hand, lightly rusted tools or tools with specks or rust over plating come out sparkling. The Evaporust does not hurt plating of any kind, or paint, or rubber, or plastics, etc. It does however, destroy bluing and other oxide coatings. I treated my nickel plated Stanley 45 with very pleasing results. Cheers! J Joseph Sullivan ------- Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:45:20 +1100 From: dynnyrnex~xxnetspace.net.au Subject: [OldTools] Re: citric cilliness, etching Hi everyone, I come late to this discussion, after a long and busy weekend, so sorry if the thread is palyed out.. Phil asked in part > I have a piece that is clean now except for 3-4 small spots of intense > rust. I'd like to leave it in until those are gone. What say ye? My experience with CA has been a little different to Jim T's. Maybe I made my CA solution too strong, but I dunked a small Stanley cast shave body with some other stuff. I got everything else out but I forgot the shave body for 24 hrs or so. It came out super clean, bright silver grey and looking like a piece of old fibrous wrought iron. Etched beyond all belief! No big deal: it was from a bucket of rusty metal and I didn't have the cap or the iron, but it was a warning for me. IMHO the CA method is effective and the by-products are safe but the process is NOT benign. My advice is to watch anything in the solution closely, fish things out and inspect frequently and quit while you are ahead. Regards, Tony B Hobart, Tasmania ------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 08:24:17 -0500 From: "jem1098x~xxpowerc.net" Subject: [OldTools] EVAPORUST Warning Short version: If you leave a tool soaking in Evaporust for long periods of time (over a month) - cover the container or you will be sorry. Long version: I'd been reading about the wonders of Evaporust, and it sounded so simple that even I couldn't mess it up, which of course I did. I ordered a couple of the big containers (I've got a lot of rust) and when it arrived I pulled out two of my nastiest auger bits. These are bits so ugly with rust that I won't even let them in the workshop lest they contaminate the good stuff. I took a plastic container used for storing DVDs, dumped the videos, dropped in the bits, covered with Evaporust, set it on my kitchen counter. (The counter was plywood since I'd pulled out the pink laminate in preparation for redoing the kitchen months before, but never got around to finishing until this month). I checked it in an hour but didn't notice any change in the rust. So I pushed the container to the back, behind the toaster, and let it sit overnight. When I checked in the morning I thought I could see some change - when I ran a bit under hot water and scrubbed with a green pad some of the gunk came off. So I put it back on the counter to sit some more. Then I got distracted. I thought I'd pull up the plywood to put the proper support strips underneath in prep for real countertops, so I moved everything from off the plywood and dispersed to various parts of the house. Most of it got piled up on the table or in a corner of the kitchen, but I didn't want the dogs drinking the Evaporust (the hound will stick his nose in ANYTHING, and the pit will take it from him and drink it just for spite) so I put that in the laundry room. It just fit on the floor between the washer and the wall. Sometime later (week or two) I threw a cardboard box in there and it seems to have wedged itself between the washer and the wall, nicely covering the container of evaporust-covered auger bits from site. Fast forward a couple of months. Last night I needed a box, so I pulled it out and noticed the container that had been filled with about an inch of evaporust and two auger bits. It seems when evaporust is exposed to air it evaporates. It's only been 2-3 months but now instead of two ugly auger bits I have a block of black tar within which I can just barely see the tip of an auger bit. I pulled it out into the light and it smells like petroleum jelly. The edges are rock-solid, almost like plsatic. When I pry it from the container it comes apart in one piece, auger bits still locked inside this big black plastic tarlike puddle. I wasn't about to drop it in my new granite sink, so I took it to the bathtub and started washing it in hot water. It took about 30 minutes but eventually most of the crud dissolved, leaving black tar in all the pits and crevises and areas I couldn't reach with a green pad. I've got the bits soaking in water now, and tonight I'll try to take a wire-brush to them to get the remaining gunk off. On the plus side, the rust seems to be mostly gone, but the color is now flat battleship gray. And I can't wash the smell of petroleum jelly out of my hands. So if you leave your tools soaking in Evaporust, keep the container sealed, check it frequently, and don't forget it's there. On the other front - 3 days tumbling with walnut shells soaked in chrome polish (it's all I had) did nothing to shine up my bits. I've got them tumbling in kitty litter now and Monday the polishing compounds I ordered should arrive so hopefully by this time next week I'll have decent results from the rock-tumbler experiment. Joe M. ------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:20:17 -0500 From: "rickyo74" Subject: [OldTools] re: EVAPORUST Warning Joe provides us Evapo-Rust junkies a cautionary tale and some advice: >If you leave a tool soaking in Evaporust for long periods of time (over a month) - cover the container or you will be sorry.< As one of the participants in the recent spate of Evapo-Rust postings - and with no strong desire to start another round - I read this story with great interest and plan to heed Joe's advice. I like the stuff but have never soaked any of my rust longer than a day as that has been sufficient to take care of things. A month seems like a long time to soak anything. Anyway, from their website: "EVAPO-RUST is spent when it is pitch black and no longer performs." Looks like they mean it. Cheers, Rick Yochim Purcellville, VA ------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:36:10 -0600 From: "Joseph Sullivan" Subject: RE: [OldTools] EVAPORUST Warning Evaporust is a water-based solution. As it evaporates, just pour more water in. I did so yesterday. Joseph Sullivan ------- rust removal [atlas618lathe group] Posted by: "mike j" mjohnsonx~xxgeusnet.com Date: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:43 am ((PDT)) Has anyone here ever used the reverse plating electrolysis procedure to remove rust from parts? Been reading up on the process and found a couple of different recipes for the solution varying from lye to washing soda. Also I was considering using a piece of expanded metal (like tile or stucco lathing) to make my positive anode from, so I could could completely surround the part in the bath, but this part appears it may have a sprayed on galvanizing. Will this affect the process? ------- Re: rust removal Posted by: "tenring701" dmartensx~xxwoh.rr.com Date: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:40 pm ((PDT)) Mike, take a look at the Old Woodworking Machines site, Wiki Knowledge base. I think www.wiki.owwm.com will get you there. Section 2 of the knowledge base is restorations, and there's some good information on electrolysis rust removal. The guys there restore a LOT of rusty machines, they know their stuff. Good luck, TR701 ------- Re: rust removal Posted by: "Ron" ronlu124x~xxkc.rr.com Date: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:48 pm ((PDT)) I have used the process quite a bit. I use Arm& Hammer washing soda and rebar and reinforcement wire as the positive electrode. You can use any nonmetallic container you can dream up ie: I derusted a ford 2n rear tractor wheel in a kiddie pool had to flip it over once though. I've done the inside of motorcycle gas tanks by suspending a positive electrode inside the tank not touching the sides and the negative to the tank. Ron (KC, Mo ------- Re: rust removal Posted by: "mf205i" mf205ix~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:01 pm ((PDT)) Washing soda is Soda Ash-Sodium Carbonate. It is available at home centers, pool supply, and some markets. It is sold to control PH in swimming pools. Use 1 tablespoon full per gallon of water. If you use a low current, less than 1 amp, for a week you will find your iron parts rust, PAINT, and crud free. The low amperage and extended time greatly reduces the black crud and turns this process into a great degreaser and paint remover. You can reduce the amperage of a battery charger by using light bulbs. I use a small headlight in series. This process is line of sight, so better results can be had if you use sheet metal plates, or a steel can, with all sides equal distant from your parts. When I started this I was using up to two battery chargers, 30 volts, 8 amps and it looked like a Lobster pot boiling. It was great fun and fast, but I gave up on the process because the black crud on the parts was almost as hard to remove as the rust. A year or so later I started refining the process and I now use it all the time. Use the low amps, a lot slower but worth the wait. No need to pre clean the parts just wipe off the big stuff and have at it, you will be amazed. STEEL AND IRON ONLY! Have fun, Mike ------- Electrolytic-Rust-Removal [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "Bryan" clockguy2x~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:32 am ((PDT)) After looking at the pictures Miles posted for his Lathe With Timken Bearings: http://picasaweb.google.com/pinzgauer.depository.1/MyAtlas618LatheWi thTimkenBearings# I noticed some of his tooling would be good candidates for Electrolytic rust removal. http://www.instructables.com/id/Electrolytic-Rust-Removal-aka-Magic/ While it's not God's gift to metal cleaning, it does work quite well on delicate parts and doesn't remove any extra metal. The process is self limiting and won't change any non-rusted surfaces. You don't have to get as elaborate on your anodes as the instructables guy does, but the process is pretty much line-of-sight. It takes off the rust closest to the anode first. I first tried this on a Hilti gun a contractor left in the rain and then threw away. the slide was rusted tight and the screw couldn't be removed. It took a week in the solution but I was able to remove parts as they loosened up and I was able to free the stuck screw also in the end. I now have a working hilti gun for nothing more than a little elbow grease and some electricity. I use baking soda instead of washing soda because I can't find washing soda in my area and I'm too lazy to look for it. Bryan Smith ------- Re: Electrolytic-Rust-Removal Posted by: "adamx~xxshiphorns.com" Date: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:42 am ((PDT)) Most of the chemicals I use during metal restorations come from my local pool supply store. I use the high-strength Hydrogen Peroxide (trade name "Baquacil") and Sodium Bisulfate ("pH Lower") for pickling copper alloys, and the Sodium Carbonate ("pH Rise") for electrolytic rust removal. During the summer, Walmart has the pH products also, in small quantities like 5lb tubs. Washing Soda is Sodium Carbonate. Adam ------- NOTE TO FILE: Today is 12 Feb 2011 and I was looking through my older files when I noticed the Rust Removal one had no new entries since 2009. Actually the metalworking and even woodworking forums have discussed this topic fairly regularly but I have read nothing lately that was different from the methods already recorded here. I recently had a need to remove the rust from a number of steel reloading components that had been stored improperly for many years, and had developed some nasty rust blooms -- particularly in the metal's sharp checkered areas. So I'll tell you about my recent experience using citric acid. I chose this option as I live far from sources of Evaporust and did not see an easy way to use electrolysis on some of the tiny components. (And I'm not very fond of potential electrical hazards.) Folks said you could find citric acid in grocery stores in the section for doing food preserves. Apparently not hereabouts. They also said it was used in wine making, and a visit to a local store selling wine and beer making supplies found some. It was available in tiny packages that were fairly costly. An inquiry to the owner found they also had ordered it in bulk and packaged a couple of pounds for me. As this was food grade, I made sure I stored it at home in food safe conditions in case SWMBO decided to use some in the kitchen. A heavy duty plastic peanut butter jar was ideal to keep it clean and dry. Another large plastic peanut butter jar was just the perfect size to hold enough liquid for treating several parts, with the added bonus of a lid that would largely contain the sharp acid odour while it worked. I left the lid unscrewed, just loosely on top in case any gas was produced. (If this had been summer, I would have done everything outside.) I made up a solution using very hot tap water and as much citric acid powder as would dissolve easily. The metal objects were first rinsed off with soapy water to remove any residual oil, that might interfere with the process. They were then immersed in the citric acid solution for several hours, during which the liquid was occasionally stirred. A visual inspection found that the rust areas were turning black. It was mostly a soft black sludge, but harder in heavy rust areas. The objects which had had the least rust were removed and brushed with an old tooth brush. That removed some black. One of those toothbrush-size brushes with stainless steel bristles was used next. Perfect. Some of the metal objects looked brand new and were towelled off and sprayed with WD-40 to displace hidden water. (I'm not going to get into the argument here about whether WD-40 is a lubricant or a water displacement product. I used it for the latter purposes here, and a couple of days later wiped it off and replaced its coating with a dedicated anti-rust preservative oil product like Boeshield.) Other objects with heavier rust needed to be returned to the citric acid bath overnight. By the next day all rust was gone. Most parts were rust free and shiny. Some, which had had the worst rust, ended up with areas of surface discolouration but were fully functional again. Safety Issues. Yes this was food grade citric acid, but acid is acid and was a strong solution. The acid could irritate your skin or blind you if you do not take adequate safety precautions. I always wore rubber gloves and always put on safety googles in case of splashes. Always better safe than sorry. ------- Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 14:39:21 -0500 (CDT) From: w.taggartx~xxverizon.net Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rust To: swatson9x~xxq.com May 10, 2011 02:31:28 PM, swatson9x~xxq.com wrote: > For years and a lot of them I have used a wire brush to remove rust from small items I have pick up at estate and yard sales. Now my sister tells me to just use a battery charger and some laundry soda in a bucket of water. Anyone have comments? < The removal of rust is a long- and often-debated topic in these environs. Although it seems to me it has been some time since anyone really raised a ruckus about it. I think it's because those of us that have been on the Porch a while have been there before enough times that we kind of grunt dismissively in its direction when "that" conversation walks in again. But sure, as the regulars here will roll their eyes and warn you, I've got lots o' comments. 1. Let's distinguish a wire brush from a wire wheel, and different wire brushes and wire wheels from each other. There are the big, coarse, rough, steel-bristled wire brushes, good for removing last season's baked-on grease from your barbecue or the rusty crud from the underside of your mower deck, and then there are the smaller, brass- or bronze-bristled brushes that look like oversized tooth brushes. Then there are coarse, medium and fine steel wire wheels, and similarly-graded brass or bronze wire wheels. It really depends on what you've got and what you're trying to de-rust as to which of those you might use. You will find that the use of any of these tools is a matter of strict dogmatism among many - i.e,. as Groucho Marx was in Horse Feathers, they're against it. It's been my experience, though, that it is possible to use certain wire brushes and certain wire wheels on certain portions of certain old tools to clean them up nicely with no deleterious effect. The issue you have to watch out for is using too coarse a bristle at too high a speed or with too much pressure on too soft a metal. You can quickly overheat, gouge, gall or scar the surface. So go slowly, use a gentle touch and a soft, fine brush until you find where that line is. 2. Yes, you can remove rust using electrolysis. It does involve using a battery charger, a plastic bucket or tub of water, washing soda or baking soda (again, a little dogmatism here - I've had great results with baking soda; some say you have to use washing soda - either one works; you might have to use more baking soda), and a sacrificial anode. As others have said Google "removing rust with electrolysis" for more on the how-to. I would CAUTION, however, that in my estimation, electrolysis is overused. I've seen too many pictures and tales of using electrolysis on tools that certainly looked to me like they didn't need it. Electrolysis is pretty aggressive, and I reserve it for really rusty stuff - typically things with multiple pieces and moving parts that are crusty and stuck together. It can work wonders at getting stuff freed up and loose again. But if what you've got is loose or dry, powdery surface rust, on something like a plane body, without anything more serious, I submit electrolysis is more trouble than it's worth, and you can clean up that rust using simpler methods of physical removal. Another thing to be aware of is that electrolysis leaves a fair amount of clean-up work still to be done on the item, not the least of which is because it leaves steel and cast iron with a dull, grayish cast to it. Oh, and it really only works for steel, cast iron or iron anyhow. I don't like using Naval Jelly, because not only is it a nasty chemical that is a pain to deal with (use gloves, goggles, etc.), but when you're done, you've now got this caustic goo to deal with, and - like electrolysis - it leaves the item with a dull grayish hue. One solution I've come up with is that in general, I no longer buy things that are so crudded up and rusty that they need electrolysis, unless it's something really cool that I just have to have. And that doesn't happen all that often anymore. For your basic user-grade tools - saws, chisels, planes, etc. - I'm not seeing electrolysis as necessary on the vast majority of them; even bottom-feeder items. I've used it on bench vise parts, car parts, and large castings, and on axe heads. And in the past I've done some planes, but they were really rough, bought back when I truly was a bottom-feeder and should have passed on them like everyone else more experienced already had. 3. Ultimately, however, the rule is this: it's your tool; do what you want with it. I decided long ago not to put to a vote here on the Porch any question of what I should do with any of my tools. Should I strip this? Should I repaint this? Should I file this bit down? Should I use electrolysis on this? Such questions generally yield only grief, as someone of the aforementioned dogmatic variety will weep, wail and moan about how you're destroying a valuable piece of history and you have a duty to preserve it for future generations. If it's a dirt-common jack plane or something, I say do whatever you want with it. I'm not so worried about the common, user-grade tools as I might be about something like a Tidey Patent double-bevel plane or ivory-tipped, ebony-bodied Sandusky center-wheel plough plane. There's my 28 cents. Bill t. ------- Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 06:06:57 +1000 From: Mick Dowling Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rust GGs The HTPAA website has an online article about electrolytic rust removal here: http://www.htpaa.org.au/article-electro.php Mick Dowling Melbourne Member, Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc. ------- Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 16:24:19 -0700 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rust I prefer Citric Acid. It's boatloads easier. Just dump some in a bucket of water and toss the steel in. If you are crazy nuts to overdo it, you can add EDTA which will bind specifically to minerals such as the liberated iron. This is helpful mostly when you are using Citric acid to Passivate SST. Same procedure. Dump - - - Toss - - don't measure. Time is merely a factor of the concentration. You get a feel for it after the first time, you can use a heater to accelerate things, but it's pointless overkill. It'll sharpen old files too. ------- Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 17:47:15 -0400 From: nicknaylox~xxaol.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rust Same here. I've got a giant pickle jar bought just for the depth of citric laced water it will hold. Did the Electrozap thing a few years back when there was a #6C (much maligned short jointer/long jack plane Jeff) with sole grooves full of rust. Used a plastic window box from the garden center for a zap tank. But other than something big and rusted into one piece, Citric is easier, IMHO. Michael -- now with a little yard scything practice under his belt ------- Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 14:05:33 +1000 From: "John Manners" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rust Dwight Beebe writes: > Preference? Evaporust mostly, as it lets me get my hands in there, > scrub a bit to see what's happening, and toss it back if more rust > removal is needed. Both processes leave the surface with a greyish > material that is substantially reduced by vigorous scrubbing with a > grey scrub pad. You can bring things to shiny with very soft wire > brush, one that doesn't mar the surface. The "greyish material" is actually miniscule pitting which, when the object has been treated by electrolysis, contains a residue of black magnetite which is below the general surface when the major part of the magnetite is cleaned off, with, say, a cloth, soap and water. It is not of any concern in terms of the function of the tool. Metal polishers employ various wheels and compounds either to remove the residual magnetite, giving a "somewhat" shiny finish as the light is still bounced around the sides of the pits, or to fill the pitting with something reflective which, for a while, at least, provides a more shiny finish. Grinding down to the level of the bottom of the pits would be a further, expensive and somewhat pointless way to furnish a temporary shiny finish which would endure for as long as the shine on, say, a saw endured after it was first bought from a hardware shop, that is, for no time at all after it was put to work. Regards from Brisbane, John Manners ------- Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 00:35:26 -0700 From: Tom Holloway Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rust On May 10, 2011, at 12:09 PM, gary may wrote: > I use a rotating soft brass-bristled brush on a 'lectric grinder pretty regularly to get rust off stuff-----a stiff steel brush's on the other side for getting tough with stuff I find that's heavily rusted, clamps, crowbars, wrenches, pliers, modern augers, 'forstners' and carbide drills often turn up in pretty sad shape for cheap--- anyway, for cool old tools, wire brushing is not good, but with a light touch of the brass, rust (and paint) is coaxed off classy old auger flutes, cap irons, screwdriver shanks, stuff like that without too much impact on the patina, or the plating. . . . Electrolysis? Never had much luck with that. Is that really what you do? < Picking out a phrase: "for cool old tools, wire brushing is not good" So we agree. 100%. I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that Mr. Watson was referring to cool old tools. My gut negative reaction was probably provoked by seeing too many cool old tools scratched to death, their corpses lying in the antique mall of your choice. I've used electrolysis. I've used citric acid. I've used Evaporust. I've used a razor blade (for crust), and 400 or 600 grit sandpaper on the end of my thumb. I like them all, depending on the nature of the task at hand, and the desired end result. I don't use wire brushes to clean old tools, but hey, that's just me. Shacoon ah sone goot. Tom Holloway ------- Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 20:38:35 +1000 From: Mick Dowling Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rust GGs: DAMHIKT, but don't use electrolysis on anything with a spring. Hydrogen embrittlement makes springs.....brittle. OK, since someone will probably ask. I used electrolysis on some calipers that I had, and the springs broke. Note that I said some. That's because it happened twice. One straight after the other. Mick Dowling Melbourne Member, Hand Tool Preservation Association of Australia Inc. ------- Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 09:45:55 +1000 From: "John Manners" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rust I have a friend who, for the last 50 years or so, has collected and restored old clocks, some of them very old. He simply used car batteries for his electrolysis set-up until a few years ago when he employed a transformer from a redundant piece of computer equipment. Rusted clock springs were the main objects of his electrolytic attentions. However, after removing them from the tank and before he proceeded to clean them down he always gave them a spell in an oven at a relatively low temperature. This, he told me, drove off the hydrogen which otherwise would cause embrittlement of the springs. He also did the same with sundry rusted pocket-knives in the process of their rescue although, with some having scales which might be damaged by too much heat, he left them in the oven only until they were dry and then placed them in open-ended plastic bags in the sun for a couple of days to achieve the same purpose. Magnetite, when dry, is relatively easy to remove with some scouring pads or with fine abrasive paper and residual magnetite dust can be sponged off with turps to avoid initiating another round of the corrosion process which occurs if water is used. Regards from Brisbane, John Manners ------- Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 12:54:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Thomas Conroy Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rust I've never done electrolysis, and my preferred method is citric acid, but it has to be said that zapping will not cause new pits in sound iron, whereas it is definitely possible to leave a tool in citric for too long. The temptation is to try and get every bit of pitting cleaned out with citric, and to keep putting it back in again and again. After twenty hours or so the crust is still there on the deep pits, but all the rest of the surface will have fine closeset pinpoint pits. At this point I use citric to clear off most of the rust, but try to limit total time to a couple of hours and to give up while the worst spots are still unfazed. Or I scratch down into the worst bits of crust and give it a bit more time in the bath. Or add some more crystals for another twenty minutes or so; the citric acid is definitely used up by the reaction. Watch out for little bubbles, a bad sign; they seem to appear when and where the metal itself is being attacked. I always find I have to finish up with fine emery cloth, to get rid of the worst spots of crust and to reduce the powdery-feeling grey ugly surface. At the very least a fast rub-over with 0000 steel wool. When I'm using abrasives I usually put oil on the surface to hold the swarf in suspension; this puts a lot of muck on my hands, but I would rather have it there than in the air. Wiping off the oil and swarf is pretty easy, as clean-up goes. I'll repeat my own theory that the grey or black residue after citric or electrolysis is basically loose carbon. Think about it. Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon. When steel rusts the iron goes into new compounds with oxygen, so the carbon is still hanging around, now a finely divided powder and mixed in physically with the oxides. When zapping removes the iron oxides into solution, the carbon powder is still there and is unaffected by the zapping, so it deposits on the surface. As supporting evidence: when you clean a laminated blade with citric, the hard steel layer gets much darker than the mild steel layer. Other acids will also work, but citric acid works a a very convenient speed. Vinegar is much slower, and it is easy to forget a tool and leave it in a vinegar bath until it is seriously damaged. Stronger acids can go so fast that you may not get the tool out before it is damaged. I haven't yet tried sprite (citric acid with sugars) or coke (phosphoric acid, like naval jelly), though I keep intending to. Tom Conroy Berkeley ------- Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 22:36:26 -0400 From: Anthony Seo Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rust Well as one who has derusted more tools that he cares to think about, trying to us a cut and dry formula just doesn't work. Some times I start with sand paper, depending on the item and the level of rust involved. A Stanley bench plane body can tolerate 100 grit red paper as long as you go in the long direction of the body and don't get swirly. I seem to have acquired a pile of 180 grit and that has been doing most of the work these days. Depending on the item, 400 grit either wet or dry. I do put a drop or 2 of liquid soap on the item that I am wet sanding, makes the clean up a little faster. Brushes, I have a few of them. The cat's meow is a large very fine brass one that Gary K identified as a lint removing brush (think Tom Watt's kits stuff). Let me tell you that works well. Leaves a little bit of a brassy glaze but in most cases this is a first step tool and not a last step. That also works well for cleaning threads. I also have a heavy steel wire one that mostly I attack large hammer heads with. I do have some of those small brass parts cleaning brushes as well in addition to a wire test tube brush (on the soon to be replaced list) that I use for hammer and axe head eyes. Yes folks, unlike a lot of the fools out there I do clean the loose rust out of the eyes. Wheels -- for a while I had one of those small hobby grinders that took 3" wheels and I was using fine brass coated ones on it. That had a pretty anaemic motor so scuffing something (other than soft brass or aluminum) wasn't much of a possibility. That died late last fall and I had a bigger version here waiting that uses 6" wheels. I wasn't able to lay my hands on a cheap 6" brass coated fine wheel so I'm just using a plain steel fine wheel for now. I use the wheel more to polish rather than for bulk rust removing. Also in the arsenal are 3M, or whatever I can get cheap, pot scrubbing pads. Chemicals, eh... I tried the gallon of vinegar with a tablespoon of salt route a long time ago and then ago like 4 years or so ago. Didn't much like the results either time but it does get rid of old concrete to a degree. But as I started to say, I don't have a 1 .2 .3 formula. Just depends on the tool and what it needs and how much time I want to waste on it. Tony (whose derusting totals are well into the 5 figure item count) Olde River Hard Goods http://www.oldetoolshop.com TSMusic on Facebook http://www.facebook.com/tonyseomusic ------- Today's Project.... [shopbuilttools] Posted by: "gdnicholsx~xxaol.com" Date: Tue Jul 5, 2011 3:08 pm ((PDT)) Yesterday, I set a relic #8 Stanley plane out in the 105F sun all day to loosen the knob and tote screws and it worked! Then I used iron wire (old coat hangers) to wire it and a smaller plane together for de-rusting by electrolysis. For a pot, I used one of those under the bed plastic storage containers which was just long enough to accommodate the 24" long #8 diagonally. For an anode I used a piece of 1/8" x 3" x 24" steel out of the black metal rack at Home Depot. For electrolyte, I thoroughly dissolved about 1/2 cup of Arm and Hammer washing soda in a small container before stirring it into about 4 gallons of water. Once I poured the electrolyte over the planes and anode, I put the red lead on the metal and the black lead on the plane body before turning the battery charger on x~xx 6 volts. I immediately saw bubbles streaming off of the two plane bodies, so I figured I had a good enough connection. It has now been almost 24 hours and the corrugated sole of the #8 looks really good through the muck. It is 105F now and has been over 100F most of the day which might help the process along. In a couple of hours I'm planning on taking both planes out for their first wash. When I did this process a few years ago, I use 3-M pads and water to wash the planes. Recently, I read somewhere that you can use some orange-based product for a wash -- or even cola! Both supposedly give good results. Has anyone had experience with these two 'solvents" for cleanup after electrolysis? Dale PS: Before you think I ruined a relatively rare Stanley #8 plane, I stress it was a relic which looked like it went down with the Titanic! I'll try to post some photos later. ------- Re: Today's Project.... Posted by: "mason perkins" masonx~xxcoolaccess.net Date: Tue Jul 5, 2011 7:43 pm ((PDT)) I tried this charger method with mixed results. The anode needs to be as large or larger than the item to be cleaned. It helps to run a grinder over the anode to get down to clean metal. For small items I use a product from O'Riley auto store that you can get in 1/2 gal for about $20. If possible use and store in something plastic with a lid to cut down on evaporation. I have no answer to your question. ------- Re: Today's Project.... Posted by: "gdnichols" gdnicholsx~xxaol.com Date: Tue Jul 5, 2011 8:32 pm ((PDT)) Mason: I think you are correct in saying the anode must be similar in area to the item being de-rusted. My anode is about the size of the bottom of the plane and it seems to be working OK. Another factor is the "line of sight" aspect where the rust is stripped much faster from the part closest to the anode. It would be a help to have the anode encircle the item being stripped but the long piece of rebar I was planning to use is now holding up some plants in my wife's garden! I'm thinking of making a smaller de-rusting tank out of a 5 gal "mud" bucket with a big piece of car body metal as the anode. That would give plenty of surface area and should be just right for smaller projects. I use that CLR (bathroom Calcium, Lime and Rust remover) to de-rust small items and it works fairly well. Dale ------- Re: Today's Project.... Posted by: "mason perkins" masonx~xxcoolaccess.net Date: Wed Jul 6, 2011 1:46 am ((PDT)) You are right about the line of sight. I used a large plastic trash can and hung 4 old mower blades connected together with copper wire and with clamps around the can. Roughed up part of each blade to clean metal. I also noticed I could get an indication of how well it was working by charge rate showing on the charger. For small items I still like the liquid rust remover I bought from O'Riley's best. Can save and re-use several times. Mason ------- Re: Today's Project.... Posted by: "Joe Hurst" dogofthelandx~xxyahoo.ca Date: Wed Jul 6, 2011 8:18 am ((PDT)) Dale and everyone: Electrolysis is great for de-rusting. After, I just rinse the tools in a lot of water and it seems OK. If by the 'orange-based product' you mean citirc acid (which is also in cola) it would likely neutralize the washing soda faster. But then just how much is the right amount? Like they say 'flush thoroughly with water'. Joe ------- Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 11:15:51 -0700 From: Tom Holloway Subject: [OldTools] Citric acid embrittlement, or metal flaw? GGs: For several years now my derusting method of choice for small parts has been a citric acid solution. I've read here about electrolysis making saw blades brittle (hydrogen. . .?), but I don't recall the same discussion pertaining to citric acid. Thus my query, proceeded by the story: In conjunction with my recent foray into the "sector" and its use in layout, I rumaged in my stash for dividers/compasses that are paired with the sector in use. One I found had fairly even-length arms (a common problem seems to be having one tip break off, necessitating grinding down the other to re-match). It seemed to work OK, but was caked with crusty rust in some parts, and needed rehab. It's not Starrett, but Union Tool, if that matters. I plopped it in a CA bath, in my usual not-too-strong concentration, and left it overnight. This morning on fishing it out, the round clip spring at the top of the arms had broken in two, on the line punctured to receive the little handle that protrudes from the top of the spring. No strain otherwise, and it had worked OK yesterday, and now in two useless pieces. So the obvious question: Is there something inherent in the citric acid derusting treatment that might have done something to the spring to cause it to break apart, on its own? Or was this something that was bound to happen to this pair of dividers, and it coincidentally happened while the tool was submerged in a mild solution of citric acid? Speculation welcome. Enlightenment appreciated. Tom Holloway ------- Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 07:10:12 +0800 (WST) From: Peter Subject: Re: [OldTools] Citric acid embrittlement, or metal flaw? No useful info here Tom, just a welcome to the increasing list of names of galoots who have discovered this phenomenon all by themselves! ;^) PeterH in Perth Custodian of a nice and shiny (was dirty and rusty) citric acid bathed pair of Moore & Wright dividers - and two pieces of what once was a one piece clip spring. ------- Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 11:43:08 -0700 From: Kirk Eppler Subject: Re: [OldTools] Citric acid embrittlement, or metal flaw? I've always been hesitant to do springs in any derust solution due to the hydrogen thing I heard of on saws. I use the razor blade and scotchbrite if needed, but not much more. No science, no knowledge on the subject, just irrational fear of fouling up. Kirk in HMB, getting ------- Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 20:04:47 +0100 From: Dave Caroline Subject: Re: [OldTools] Citric acid embrittlement, or metal flaw? Google for stress corrosion cracking, old books also gave it other names like caustic embrittlement or age hardening (usually brass). I think the causes were beginning to be fully known around the 1940's. But basically some chemical weakening the bonds along the grain boundaries; it can be very quick. I tried on a newly made brass part that had a square hole punched up it (clock winding key barrel) in a jar with a bit of mercury, it cracked in about an hour, ammonia in brass cleaning fluid is guilty too. For the last few years I have been doing clock restoration where this subject gets mentioned too. A clock dial would have been hammered to harden and flatten, then the lady (or poor clock restorer) of the house uses the wrong polishing fluid, result cracked dial. Rolled brass surrounds/bezels from barometers/dials, pressure guages often have a particular regular split. My "bible" on the subject is Symposium on stress-corrosion cracking of metals ASTM AIME 1945. Dave Caroline ------- Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 13:07:03 -0700 From: Timm Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Citric acid embrittlement, or metal flaw? Well here I sit with the idea of removing rust from a newly aquired rusty Atkinson saw and my thought was the citric acid process, having heard of the problems of some other processes I thought this would be on the safe side and now I am having doubts. Is there anyone out there that has the definitive process. As you guys know these old tools are treasures are more valuable than gold to me that is for sure. How is naval jelly, or lime away, CLR or whatever. Just need some ideas that help me avoid a heart attack haha. Timm Thompson ------- Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 14:19:30 -0700 From: Kirk Eppler Subject: Re: [OldTools] Citric acid embrittlement, or metal flaw? Scrape off the big crud with a razor blade, then use 220 grit sand paper (with the direction of the saw), wet or dry, your choice. 400 grit if you are really anal. Kirk in HMB ------- Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 17:32:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Ed Bell Subject: Re: [OldTools] Citric acid embrittlement, or metal flaw? I've always much preferred the razor blade + wet sandpaper method for cleaning up saws. And I do use the sandpaper wet, despite the counter- intuitiveness of using water on steel. If you dry it promptly, it won't instantly re-rust on you. I've cleaned up some pretty cruddy ones with very satisfying results. Just make sure to back your sandpaper up with a block, especially when sanding in the vicinity of the etch, otherwise you risk sanding the etch off. And I usually take it down to 600. ;-) Ed ------- Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 17:40:19 -0700 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq." Subject: Re: [OldTools] Citric acid embrittlement, or metal flaw? That's prolly the only way to avoid any reactions. I've never had anything break, but like lightening strikes, earthquakes, and meteor strikes -- it may only be a matter of when. ------- Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 23:37:36 -0500 From: Robert Hutchins Subject: Re: [OldTools] Citric acid embrittlement, or metal flaw? My guess is that the wet sandpaper involving water is to provide a sort of lubricant. Why not use WD40 instead of water? Does it do something undesirable to the metal? Bob Hutchins ------- Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 15:40:01 +1100 From: Philip Yarra Subject: Re: [OldTools] Citric acid embrittlement, or metal flaw? Not at all, I use WD-40 with good results. Regards, Philip ------- Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:46:29 -0700 From: "Adam R. Maxwell" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Citric acid embrittlement, or metal flaw? I've used mineral spirits and more recently WD-40. I tried phosphoric acid (DuPont 5715S metal conditioner) on one saw, but won't use it again on tools, since I don't like the look of the metal afterwards. Adam ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following extract from the Oldtools group concerns restoration of a heavily rusted, rare inclinometer. The processes used are systematic and show the value of patience, and slow thoughtful work. ------- Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 09:31:56 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: [OldTools] Davis Mantle Clock Inclinometer Some months ago I was talking to Jim one day. "Hey, how would you like a Davis inclinometer level?" he sez. "I got one from a yard sale and I am not going to repair it." I am thinking, this can't be what I think it is. I was sure it was something else, but I love levels anyway, and of course I was interested. I opened the box and sure enough, the incredibly rare Davis mantle clock was looking right back at me. And except for the missing vial, it wasn't broken anyplace. It had been, however, actually buried in the ground for years and years. Not a trace of paint and the screws had no heads left and it was totally crunchy with thick hard rust from one end to the other. I never really thought it could be saved, nobody would. But hey, who has more time than me? And besides there is no way I was ever going to see another. So I cleaned what I could without scratching the delicate patina of the face brass, and plunked it down in a bath of automatic transmission fluid and acetone. The best penetrating oil for the least money, by far. Plunked it right down it a plastic tub I had a cover for, and left it for three weeks. This basically did little though. The iron body had blooomed with rust that welded the brass to it (clearance is tight anyway). The screws were solid frozen and none of the little screws on the face had any trace of slot left, they were just smooth. The little pointer was merely a trace of rust where it had used to be. So first I took a hand impact screwdriver. You know, you swat it and it delivers impact in a small way? I took one of those and began to work the long locking screws. I cleaned the slots with dental tools first. Made a wooden support structure for the level, (so fragile), and began hitting the driver. I would hit a while and dribble more penetrant and hit more etc. It took about a week of this on and off to finally get one to move. If you hurry, you die, and there was no second chance with this rarity. Finally got both of them out!! Out!! It was unbelievable. But it didn't help me a bit. The brass was still frozen to the body just as tight. I had no idea how it was really supposed to come apart, but I knew the tiny screws were holding something. They had to go. I needed Peter Mc's hands and eyes!! And his best Foredom! But mine would have to do. It was pretty much like tap dancing on jello while trying to hold a greased bb in your butt cheeks. One slip and you're gone. My best glasses and my best tool and disaster lurking every second. I slowly cut off the heads of the screws until the last traces were gone. Still nothing moving. Still frozen solid. There was nothing left but to build another holding fixture and take a soft piece of copper and begin to hammer the parts apart. I couldn't just pick and spot and pound, it all had to come loose at once or it would bend. So I walked the punch around and around, overlapping each time. Around and around. It took 3 more days on and off. I would go until tired (slopping more oil often) and stop. I knew I had to be alert for this. Finally after all this, a tiny movement. Eureka!! But now it was more dangerous than ever. Now it had to even out so I started just one side overlapping and tapping, until that moved too. First the outer ring, then the center section. It was free!! Putting it back together was not so hard, except the one little chore of drilling out the stubs of the tiny screws, and retapping the holes back to size 2-56 !! But I had the drill and tap. The body was stripped and prepared for finish. Citric acid and soft brushes mostly until it was finally clean. It got coats of baked japan. None on the bottom of course. That was scraped for accuracy. The brass was only cleaned where the sun don't shine. I wanted that rich patina!! The vial was replaced with a period vial. I had one from another broken level of course. http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/home tools/davisinclinometer.jpg http://users.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/images/home tools/davisinclinometer3.jpg Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 10:34:58 -0700 From: James Thompson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Davis Mantle Clock Inclinometer I had found the Davis inclinometer at some estate sale or other several years ago. I always intended to resurrect it, but life kept getting in the way. I decided several times to send it to Scott where it could get the treatment it deserved, but it kept disappearing into my pile-o-mess and I would forget about it. Then one day it popped up, and I hustled it into a box with a bunch of other stuff and sent it off. Scott and I have been exchanging stuff for so long now that we have both lost track. It took Scott a lot longer than I thought it would to get it squared away. Which truly tells me that I did the right thing by sending it to him. My interests have moved away from tool rehabilitation, and I probably won't look back. Later message 13 Oct 2011: After a search, I was able to find a couple of pictures of the Davis inclinometer before I sent it to Scott. When you see these pictures, you will be astounded at the transformation. And you will know why I didn't attempt to do it. https://picasaweb.google.com/oldmillrat/October132011?auth user=0&feat=directlink ------- Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 09:14:03 -0400 From: Ed Minch Subject: Re: [OldTools] Davis Mantle Clock Inclinometer Great job. Was the iron pitted? Did you make a new pointer? Are the screws the same size as the originals? Again, great job. Ed Minch ------- Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:41:57 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] Davis Mantle Clock Inclinometer Thanks Guys! Yes the iron was pitted pretty bad in places and not so bad in others. I had to take a file to the flats on each side of the topside, also the big arc above the main screws. It's still kind of bad on the sides under the screws, but it wasn't as bad. Some of the cove molding was scraped 1/2 way smooth again. Light sanding to smooth everything. This is why the japan is so thick. :) heehhehehe Luckily the base was maybe the least pitted! It still shows some after the scraping but not too bad. Did you know a normal hand/card scraper does cast iron just fine? It's just a slightly different technique of working. Messy, like spraying a lock in graphite with the greasy black clinging dust everywhere, but not that hard to do. The screws are the same size and head type as the originals. The pointer is smaller than it looks in the pictures!! It took one trial run and then 2 honest tries at it, to get what you see. I had a fancier pointer in mind, but who are we kidding? It's tiny! (The guys who made watch hands were insane.) If you ever need, the trick is to drill that hole first! Shape the part around the hole, you will never get the hole in the middle otherwise. The screws and pointer were fire blackened with a torch, then rubbed a little to simulate wear. yours Scott ------- Re: Need Tailstock Help [atlas618lathe] Posted by: "harry" ronaldtownesx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:40 am ((PST)) > Hi, I posted earlier about the well used, but not well cared for 618 lathe I got recently. One of the first issues I am tackling on it is a cup center that is frozen into the tube of the tailstock. I have tried Kroil for days at a time. < A trick I learned years ago on the TV show "This Old House" if it's just rusty soak for about 2 weeks in auto anti-freeze (Peak, Zerex, etc.) If the lathe is rusty here is another trick I just recently learned of soak the rusty parts in 1 part molasses and 9 to 10 parts water. When I first saw the "Youtube" video I thought the guy was pulling everybodys proverbial leg. But I have tired it and it works. Takes about a week or maybe a little longer. You need the type of molasses that you can get at a feed store use to feed to horses. Here is a link to the "Youtube" video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZCFcxf5IBw ------- [shopbuilttools] Re: Has anyone ever used Citrus Acid,?? Yup the stuff you use to can Posted by: "S or J" jstudiox~xxtbaytel.net Date: Wed May 2, 2012 6:15 am ((PDT)) May 1, 2012 "Bruce Bellows" bbellowsx~xxrogers.com wrote: > I currently have some citric acid that I purchased in powder form from the drug store. I haven't used it yet but I hope to by the end of May, I've got some big heavy plate with a light coating of rust that is going to form the basis of a lathe bed. The material began as precision ground. I'll keep the group informed of my results. If anyone here has already tried it I'd love to hear from you. Bruce < Hi Bruce I've been reading about methods of rust removal for many years and gathered such detailed discussions together into a reference file: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/rust_removal.txt This is definitely a problem that comes up regularly if you like old tools and haunt garage sales. Personally after trying other methods, I have settled on citric acid for fine work, and electrolysis for heavy rust. My citric acid was obtained in powder form from one of those brew-it- yourself wine stores -- not the tiny expensive packets, but a weighed pound from their bulk supply. (I did not need anywhere near this much for my immediate tasks, but wanted a small stockpile for future projects.) I prepped the rusty objects by first washing them in a strong solution of laundry detergent to remove any oil present that would probably interfere; then quickly rinsed in hot water and gently placed into the acid bath. As acids go, this is pretty mild stuff, but I still wear protective goggles (the splash protective mask type, not safety glasses like eyeglasses that would admit a splash around the side) and nitrile gloves. [And use goggles like this anytime you use a spray lubricant -- even a micro amount of oil bouncing off metal into your eye is no picnic.] The container for small objects was a clean large peanut butter jar. For longer narrow objects I have used one of those thin plastic pans sold in paint stores for dipping wallpaper. For wider objects, a custom pan can be formed from flexible thick plastic film [see a fabric store or use a heavy vapour barrier film as used in house construction] draped over a wood form and stapled to the top of the wood pieces. The citric acid in fairly strong solution (I put in as much as would dissolve in tap-hot water) works fairly quickly for light rust, perhaps a few hours with occasional hand brushing using a stiff fibre bristle brush or toothbrush so as not to add scratches. After those few hours, the heaviest remaining rust in some spots was lightly manually wire brushed (toothbrush-size stainless steel brush) and returned to the solution overnight. Once I was satisfied with the result, the metal was rinsed off in hot water, towelled dry, and immediately sprayed with WD 40 to displace any remaining water, briskly dry-towelled off again, and oiled with a true rust protectant like Boeshield T-9. (Alternatively when towel-dried followed by blow-drying with a hot air gun, or a short stint in the wife's oven at low temperature [wait 'till she's out, damhikt] it can be primed/painted.) HTH Steve -- in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/ where there are lots of other files on metalworking subjects ------- NOTE TO FILE: This group was also discussing electrolytic removal of rust and there were some questions about suitable current to be used, as well as the removal of the black scum/film that forms when rust is converted. ------- Re: rust removal [shopbuilttools] Posted by: "Tony Smith" ajsmith1968x~xxgmail.com Date: Mon May 7, 2012 3:36 am ((PDT)) > I have used this method successfully a few times, but want to pose a question to the group: is it possible to remove the "black stuff" if the process is allowed to run long enough? Has anywone been able to take the part all the way to bright metal using this method? It seems like a lot of effort was required for me to remove the "black stuff." Like the original poster, I was only getting about 3 amps. I figured it was due to lack of sufficient anodes. I don't feel comfortable leaving the setup running unattended so I would only do it over the course of one day. I have seen some people state that they leave it running for days at a time. I did find that if I periodically ground the rust off the sacrificial anode it would cause the amperage to rise again. < The main problem is people aren't patient enough, we're used to chemical strippers. You'll only get bright metal where there was no rust, like under paint. As you've found the black stuff requires a wire brush and elbow grease, sandblasting takes it off pretty quick. Bigger anodes help with the current, the problem is finding something big enough. If you drop the amps the connections don't rust up as quickly or at all. I did a painted bicycle frame (one side at a time) which ran at about 3 amps. Took a few days each side with an occasional scrub. One page I found recommends a rate of 1mA per square centimetre, which works out to a rather suspicious 1 amp per square foot. Hmm. That's lower than what I usually do it at, but generally you're rarely in a hurry. Power it up and check on it a few days later. Tony ------- Rust Removal [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "paulguenterx~xxatt.net" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Sat May 26, 2012 4:26 am ((PDT)) Here is a link to remove rust and it does not hurt the part. http://www.oldengine.org/members/orrin/rustdemo.htm GP ------- NOTE TO FILE: The above link is to an extremely detailed article on all aspects of electrolytic rust removal. Lots of details and facts that I had never read anywhere else. A very useful reference. You might want to save or print a copy in case the web copy ever disappears. ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message is from a longer conversation about using electrolysis to remove rust from an old machine. ------- Re: Craftsman 101.22922 manual uploaded [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Russ Kepler" russx~xxkepler-eng.com Date: Fri Jul 6, 2012 5:23 am ((PDT)) On Friday, July 06, 2012 06:03:09 AM Cindy & Wayne Burner wrote: > I would use Arm and Hammer "washing soda" instead of baking soda. That > is what I use to clean the rust from inside antique motorcycle tanks. > Do it outside, away from sparks or flame, the process produces > hydrogen gas. Cheaper to buy the "Ph incresaser" used in spas and pools - it's straight sodium carbonate. So it's the same stuff as "A&H Washing Soda" at 1/2 the price. ------- Re: Rust Removal [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "mf205i" mf205ix~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:09 pm ((PDT)) Washing soda is Soda Ash -- Sodium Carbonate. It is available at home centers, pool supply, and some markets. It is sold to control PH in swimming pools. Use 1 tablespoon of Sodium Carbonate per gallon of water. If you use a low current, less than 1 amp, for a week, you will find your iron parts, rust, paint, oil, grease and crud free. The low amperage and extended time greatly reduces the black crud and turns this process into a great degreaser and paint remover. You can reduce the amperage of a battery charger by using light bulbs. I use a small headlight in series. This process is line of sight, so better results can be had if you use sheet metal plates, or a steel can, with all sides equal distant from your parts. When I started this I was using up to two battery chargers, 30 volts, 8 amps and it looked like a Lobster pot boiling. It was great fun and fast, but I gave up on the process because the black crud on the parts was almost as hard to remove as the rust. A year or so later I started refining the process and I now use it all the time. Use the low amps, a lot slower but worth the wait. No need to pre- clean the parts, just wipe off the big stuff and have at it; you will be amazed. STEEL AND IRON ONLY! Remember that the part to be cleaned (cathode) is connected to negative, and the waste metal (anode) is positive. Have fun, Mike ------- Re: Rust Removal Posted by: "inspiro_creo" david.deboizex~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:08 pm ((PDT)) paulguenter wrote: > Here is a link to remove rust and it does not hurt the part > GP > http://www.oldengine.org/members/orrin/rustdemo.htm GP, Late last year I made a setup just using a 12v battery charger, 25 gallon plastic trash can, rebar and copper wire. Except for the rebar, all materials I had laying around the house. I wrote up a post on other forums explaining the build. Even though like most have stated, washing soda is the way to go, however I used baking sode, took it from my wife's baking supplies :) I had great results with it, even a 90 to 100 year old Prentis Vise Co. Monarch vise I picked up. Removed all the old paint. One thing you have to be aware of is that it's a "line of sight" process. So if the piece is paint or what have you heavy coated, you may have to do multible baths. Each time cleaning off layers until you get to the steel. What I did in order for the rebar anodes to surround the piece is to lay vertically about 5 or so rebars around the circumfrence of the inside of the trash can. See the links below to get a better idea. http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/rust-elec\ trolysis-tank-setup-ver-2-0-a-233851/#post1668644 http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1805189#post1805189 Both are the same post but two different forums with comments from different members. I have made some additional modifications to this setup. One being, putting wings nuts to make removing the copper wire easier from the rebar anodes. Btw, I followed one receipe for the baking soda I use, 1 tablespoon per gallon of water. This worked perfect for me so far. David ------- Re: Rust Removal Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:14 pm ((PDT)) Thanks David All I was reading on the process baking soda is a no no because of the gases. I used 1 cup of washing soda per 5 gal and a little more. Someone used molasses. GP ------- Re: Rust Removal Posted by: "inspiro_creo" david.deboizex~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:40 pm ((PDT)) GP, True about the off gases. My setup was sitting on a deck outside one of my sheds. Currently now inside that shed, there's so much "air leaks" inside, not to mention a ridge vent, that the gases leave the shed quickly. No trapped gases. Fortunately for me, I have plently of baking soda from my wife. Most likely I may switch to washing soda. Like I stated the one online recipe I read called for one tablespoon per gallon of water, it worked fine for me. David ------- Re: Rust Removal Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:58 am ((PDT)) > Ernie, look at my setup the next time you come over. I hook a spare car battery to the parts, and connect my high amp charger to the battery/ solution every couple of days to charge the battery and make the process work a little faster. My sacrificial electrodes are really nasty, so they don't work as well as they did at the start. It's in a 5 gallon bucket, with washing soda added until I arbitrarily decided that was enough. Rex < Rex, One can "clean' your sacrificial electrodes by reversing the process, and using a suitable 'sacrificial' piece of scrap in place of the item to be cleaned of course :) The process will benefit by physically or electrically cleaning them periodically. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Rust Removal Posted by: "Rexarino" rexarinox~xxgmail.com Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:58 am ((PDT)) Thanks Carvel. I have taken them out of solution and cleaned them manually, never thought of reversing the process, although it's obvious once you suggest it ;) The comment was mostly to note my observation of declining performance as the electrodes got dirty. I never expected to learn something - but THANK YOU! I've used this process on precision equipment and have been very satisfied with the results. I have considered acquiring a piece of perforated steel to bend into a semicircle for the sacrificial electrode, but so far, my scrap bin has supplied adequate material. Ernie, to add some realistic guidelines and withdraw a bit from my seemingly careless approach, I'll paraphrase some statements I saw on the old engine org website that Robert suggested and add some personal observations. - >>>> More current equals faster de-rusting, up to the limits Carvel posted - Current flow can be seen by the production of bubbles. If you don't see a constant stream of tiny bubbles off the work piece - it ain't working! - Where the bubbles appear to come from is the area being cleaned, no bubbles = no cleaning - If the work piece is close to the sacrificial anode, more current flows - Up to a point, more washing soda in solution increases current flow - Clean sacrificial electrodes increase current flow - Higher voltage increases current flow, but there is a safety limit - which is whatever DC voltage you feel safe sticking your hands into (I'm reckless, so don't ask) - Cold temperatures slow the process - it took quite a while last winter in my unheated garage to clean a small piece. Note that some people fear a hydrogen gas buildup in enclosed spaces, so think about safety before doing this in an enclosed space. Large areas being cleaned with high current flows will create a LOT of flammable hydrogen gas. - As much as is practical, surround the work piece with the sacrificial electrodes. An electrode on just one side gives one-sided results. - Copper wire hanging in the solution cause some copper to be dissolved into the solution, which isn't a very good idea. Use steel wire to suspend parts. - Never let plated alligator clips hang in the solution - the various plating materials used on electric connectors have no place in a solution that can otherwise be safely tossed on the garden when it gets too dirty or isn't needed any more (although, in the Pacific Northwest, there's always something rusty needing treatment, so I'll never throw my gunk away). Rex ------- Re: Rust Removal Posted by: "anthrhodesx~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:56 am ((PDT)) GP, I haven't done this de-rusting but it's my understanding that many late model battery chargers are too smart to do the work. If they don't detect a battery hooked up they won't output. You may need to find an older model charger or hook up a battery across the connection in parallel to the de-rusting connections. Anthony Berkeley, Calif. ------- Re: Rust Removal Posted by: "Guenther Paul" paulguenterx~xxatt.net Date: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:01 am ((PDT)) Anthony: What I did is I hooked up a battery to the tank and then hooked up the charger to the battery. It's working very very slow. I would have saved time if I sand blasted my parts. GP ------- Re: Rust Removal - black stuff [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:43 pm ((PDT)) I have never used evaporust, but the electrolysis method can also leave a layer of soft(ish) lower form of black iron oxide on the surface. I have had success removing this with a scotch brite pad with household cleaner (preferably with some ammonia in it), or with a high pressure (100 bar) water cleaner for larger parts. Regards, Carvel ------- Re: Rust Removal - black stuff Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:00 pm ((PDT)) I use just HOT running water and a stiff nylon bristle scrub brush. The brush will get stained black, so don't use your wife's laundry brush. Ask me how I know this. lance ------- Re: Rust Removal - black stuff Posted by: "Carvel Webb" carvelwx~xxabsamail.co.za Date: Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:23 pm ((PDT)) Lance, Water by itself will work, as per my pressure cleaner remark, but if it is a smaller item then adding some detergent cleaner to the process to start with will benefit hands, fingers, brushes, basin, and domestic harmony overall (smile). If you can find a cleaner with some ammonia in it, the ammonia combines with the black oxide and helps the cleaning process - leave it on for about 10 -15 minutes, and then go your hot water and brush route. Regards, Carvel ------- NOTE TO FILE: There was a long conversation in atlas_craftsman group in February 2013 about the relative merits of penetrating oils. It actually got quite intense on the topic of scientific proof regarding assertions as to what worked and how and with what validity. But then it diverged onto the topic of rust conversion -- adding a product that will convert the existing rust to a stable form and perhaps serve as a primer for paint over top. Personally I have tried POR-15 with some success, but don't regard it as a perfect solution. Many years ago I tried a rust converter that left a shiny black coating that could remain a finish by itself (can't remember the brand and have never seen it again) and used it to coat an iron anvil that remains perfectly rust free on the non-struck areas. But it stays indoors. More recently I tried another rust converter that left a white powdery coat and it was totally unacceptable as a rust remover or paint undercoat. Reminded me of naval jelly, which I do not like because it leaves a rough ugly finish. So I too became very interested in the new conversation. ------- Re: Penetrating oil - gary [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:03 pm ((PST)) On Feb 25, 2013, at 7:47 PM, Gary Bruder wrote: > Only acids ( a weak acid such as phosphoric) will actually change the compound to something other than an Oxide. If there are other chemists out there I would love to hear their ideas. < If you use EndRust, you'll notice that it turn dark blue / black. I believe it contains an oxidizer to convert Fe+2 to Fe+3, then a ferrocyanide salt reacts with the Fe+3 to produce the precipitate Prussian Blue, which is very fine. Also in the product is an air curing epoxy, similar to decoupage glue, like ModPodge. This glue dries and forms a water tight seal over the Prussian Blue solid. As long as the surface coating is intact, the underlying iron is protected. I coated two very rusted and porous steel lalley poles in my humid basement about 30 years ago, and they still are black and non-rusting. lance ------- Re: Penetrating oil - gary Posted by: "Eggleston Lance" wheezer606x~xxverizon.net Date: Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:27 pm ((PST)) Name change: It's Extend Rust by Locktite. I bought mine at the local True Value hardware store. Pint plastic bottle. lance ------- Re: Penetrating oil and "Extend"... Posted by: jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:25 pm ((PST)) I've used the Extend, and "Rust Reformer" stuff. It works OK, but you need to paint over it in an outdoor environment. In the basement it might be fine, but outdoors it is broken down reasonably quickly. I've used it on cars, mostly. There are two kinds of rust that occur on cars, and possibly on machines. Regular red rust, Fe2O3, is the normal stuff we recognize. It actually isn't so bad, since it doesn't continue after the conditions that produced it are gone. Looks ugly, is rough, and is a mild abrasive, though. The bad stuff on cars is black rust, Fe3O4... it isn't stable in the air (turns to red rust) but it can get under the paint, and once active with a bit of moisture sealed-in with it, it will go right through your fender. If you crack open a "nugget" of rust on a vehicle, the middle may still be black rust. And it will turn to red rust after it dries out. I wouldn't expect black rust to be a problem on machines, unless water (from pressure washing, maybe?) is allowed to get into protected areas. It night be the stuff in the threads of a bolt and nut, though. Penetrating oils just get oil into the rust area. I don't believe in the "breaks down rust" BS, unless by some chamical action, and even then, so little can get in that it is doubtful that there is any chemical effect. It takes a surprising amount of any active agent in solution to react with a mass of solid material, and generally that won't be what little wicks in from a couple drops on the outside of a bolt. But the oil surely does lube the rust bits, and lets them slip a bit, so you can turn the nut. Then the rust bits get broken up and off she comes. Unless, of course, the rust is so far gone that the nut and bolt/stud just break off. I have no clue what the best stuff is... I've used Liquid Wrench, Kroil, PBlaster, ATF and solvent (didn't mix, I believe I used Ford ATF) and oil dissolved with turps or other solvents. They pretty much ALL DID NOT WORK, at least not very well. Even when there was some evidence the solvent had penetrated, it wasn't any miracle, that's for sure. I'd have been crazy-happy-dancing with one-third of the 10:1 reduction in force that the so-called test is alleged to have shown... Mostly what I run into is a "won't turn at all" situation, and I want it to become a "can be turned without breaking" situation, but penetrating oil usually doesn't do it. I just get a smelly oily mess and a split knuckle out of the attempt. The blue wrench usually does work, but I have to go elsewhere to get that, I don't have oxy-acetylene at my place. Hey... easy-outs don't work for me either..... but I KNOW I have plenty of company on that point. I guess it won't hurt to try anything. Just be sure to put the stuff only on ONE side of the nut... otherwise you may seal a bubble of air in the middle, with oil blocking it on both sides. Then the oil will never go in. JT ------- Re: Penetrating oil Posted by: "Ken Harrington" dreamcraftersx~xxmsn.com Date: Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:53 pm ((PST)) I'ev been using a product I got from Auto Zone called Sea Foam Deep Creap and testing it aginst Kroil. Half the rusted bolts with one and half with the other and in my anecdotal testing I find the much cheaper Sea Foam outperforms the Kriol by a wide margin. In the few minutes it took me to track down a quote from the writer of the original article it apprears that he used a triclor and Power streering fluid mix in his testing. The triclor has since been banned and is difficult to get. FWIW Ken ------- Re: Penetrating oil Posted by: "sapperd06" sapper6x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:40 am ((PST)) I like Sea Foam Deep Creep, but nothing comes close to EvapoRust, just keep it wet. You may have to use some good old enginuity to make a dam to keep it wet. Very safe to use also. DWP ------- Re: Penetrating oil Posted by: "Nelson" im_all_thumbzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:44 am ((PST)) Make a wood box "dam" and line it with plastic bags to hold the Evaporust. Place the parts in it and let sit for a day. Then wipe clean and use non abrasive scotchbrite to remove residue. Nelson Hobby-Machinist.com ------- Re: Penetrating oil Posted by: "sapperd06" sapper6x~xxroadrunner.com Date: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:42 am ((PST)) I have used Evaporust on brake calipers by removing the caliper (not undoing the brake hose) and let it sit in a bucket. Then did the same for a clear water rinse, painted came out like new. Last week I had to remove my swing away mirrors thanks to my wife's backing up ability. The bolts would not move all 4 of them, I did strip the one torx head bolt. I took off the door panel to see if i could get something on the bolt to turn it from the inside. No way. so i used some pre painting prep to clean the area. Then I used modeling clay to form a dam around the 2 bottom bolts and then cut a coffee can in half and stuck it into the clay. Taped it place with masking tape. I put about a 1/2 quart of Evaporust in the dam, let it sit for about 3-4 hours. I used my beam torque wrench (not the best or most accurate). The break- loose torque was 20-30 Ft-lbs and the continuing torque to remove the 2 bolts was between 10-18 Ft-lbs. I could not believe how easy it was. I checked the inside of the door bolt threads and they were completely wet and i could not see the rust on the threads, although i think it was there but broke free from the surface of the threads. The threads were wet all around the thread top sides and bottom. So some the the Evaporust did creep through the threads from the outside. Air Temp 48 Deg. Humidity I don't know, but less than 50% Reliability of information (not a study) It works. I will continue to test Evaporust the heck out of it every time i can. PS Use Evaporust in an Ultra sonic cleaner the larger one from Harbor Freight. The results are spectacular, 100% rust removal without the typical material loss from blasting. PSS I don't own Evaporust or have anything to do with selling it, but I use the heck out of it. Next time I will take pixs for everyone DWP ------- Re: Penetrating oil Posted by: "Carl Hollopeter" chollox~xxbellsouth.net Date: Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:08 am ((PST)) After amusedly watching this thread the past day or so I have pretty much determined that I could state that the sun will come up tomorrow and get an argument here! LOL That being said, I'll add my two cents worth. When I was a lot younger the best penetrating oil I could find and swore by was actually brake fluid, of course what we were using was gallon cans of military surplus from WWII. I suspect that todays brake fluid has been new and improved to the point that it only works as brake fluid. Nowadays I mostly use PB Blaster cause it's readily available and seems to work OK. I'll have to look around for some Kroil or Evaporust and give them a try after seeing some of the reports here. Carl H ------- Re: Penetrating oil and "Extend"... [atlas_craftsman] Posted by: "Scott Henion" shenionx~xxshdesigns.org Date: Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:02 pm ((PST)) On 2/25/2013 11:25 PM, jerdalx~xxsbcglobal.net wrote: > But the oil surely does lube the rust bits, and lets them slip a bit, so you can turn the nut. Then the rust bits get broken up and off she comes. Unless, of course, the rust is so far gone that the nut and bolt/ stud just break off. < That is the use I see for penetrating oils. I have seen nuts come loose only to get tighter the father they come off as the rust piles up in the threads. > Mostly what I run into is a "won't turn at all" situation, and I want it to become a "can be turned without breaking" situation, but penetrating oil usually doesn't do it. I just get a smelly oily mess and a split knuckle out of the attempt. The blue wrench usually does work, but I have to go elsewhere to get that, I don't have oxy-acetylene at my place. < Yes, I have not had any penetrating oil in the last 20 years. Just picked up the PB Blaster on a whim. Only use has been as described above; to prevent nuts from jamming (exhaust studs are bad on this.) My Cherokee has cheap nuts and bolts that not only rust but break so easily I often just reach for the cutoff wheel rather than try. Expecting a penetrating oil to free something that has been in place for 20 years in only a few minutes of soaking is dreamland. I don't have an O/A setup. Well I do, but I never filled the acetylene tank as they are dangerous (and it is a tiny tank). I picked up a cheap O/A torch and use it with propane. It works well for getting things red hot. The O/A reg screws right into a BBQ-style propane tank (some older hoses are not compatible with propane). I got the O/A tanks off Craigs list cheap (they were still in date, check that on a used tank). All I wanted was the oxy tank. The small oxy tank was less than $20 to have filled. I have a MAPP gas torch (works with propane too.) Works well but gets expensive. I have an adpater to use the disposable MAPP tank on the O/A torch. Gives a little more heat but the flame for O/P or O/MAPP is not a focused heat like O/A. O/P also can be used for brazing but not welding. I have used it for cutting but that will suck my 20CF oxy tank dry in about 10 minutes. Since I got a small plasma cutter, have never needed it for cutting. > Hey... easy-outs don't work for me either..... but I KNOW I have plenty of company on that point. < Definition, Easy-out: a tool that will break off in a stud and then be 10 times harder than any drill you have. Scott G. Henion Craftsman 12x36 lathe: http://shdesigns.org/Craftsman12x36 ------- Re: Penetrating oil - Posted by: "Doc" n8as1x~xxaol.com docn8as Date: Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:00 pm ((PST)) case history FWIW ....5 yrs ago..... 52 super C 4 cylinder tractor ....mtr locked up ...it was rebuilt, hardly used & sat outdoors for ??? after death of owner. removed head & poured kerosene /ATF fluid on pistons ..kept them covered ..periodically pounding on wood blocks on pistons & using a bar on ring gear NICHTS !!! after 6 months i got movememnt ....pretty easy after that ...new rings & cleanup were all that was needed. whatever penetrating action occurred, it WAS needed to avoid tear down damage. best wishes doc ------- Re: Penetrating oil - Posted by: "Richard Marchi" rfmarchix~xxaol.com Date: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:44 am ((PST)) My house barge has painted steel rails that are constantly in need of maintenance. My spring ritual is to lightly sand rusted spots with a right angle grinder and paint with phosphoric acid. After 15 - 20 minutes any remaining rust pits have been converted to black iron phosphate, which does not corrode. A thorough water rinse, air dry and paint with a good metal paint finishes the job. The rust does not come back for years. However, if I just sand and paint, the coating usually fails within a year, probably from residual rust in the pits. Richard Marchi Gangplank Marina Slip H-22 Washington, DC ------- Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2014 15:17:39 +0000 From: David Nighswander Subject: Re: [OldTools] Electrolysis >From: Esq. Cliff Rohrabacher >You can use almost ANYTHING with a mineral salt or any conductive >soluble substance in it because it will alter the electrolytic >structure of the water. People use washing soda and baking soda and >I bet toothpaste might work. In the old blacksmith shop I kept a 30 gallon plastic garbage can filled with water for quenching and derusting. I would put a 2 pound box of baking soda in the can in the spring each year. The reason I used baking soda was it didn't make nasty fumes when I quenched hot steel in it and it kept the metal from flash rusting after quench. The power supply was, and will be again in the new shop, a battery charger I got for $5.00 at a garage sale. Every fall I would pour out the rusty water from the barrel on the yard behind the shop. The grass was always very nice and green where I dumped it out. My friend used washing soda in his bucket. We didn't notice any difference in speed or effectiveness between the two processes, except his took paint off and mine didn't. Dave N. aka Old Sneelock ------- Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 19:25:43 -0600 From: John Holladay Subject: [OldTools] Derusting saws I have a few saws that are in need of some rust removal. I do not intend to take a perfectly good coke and use it for removing the rust. In the past, I have primarily removed rust from saw plates by way of razor blade, abrasive and appropriate lubricant. However, I'm considering using some other method to remove the majority of the rust first and then use the normal methods for finishing and polishing. I'm just curious what you folks prefer to do in the case of a badly rusted saw plate. Doc John Holladay ------- Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 01:59:59 +0000 From: David Nighswander Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: Derusting saws My experience shows me that Naval Jelly, Electrolysis, Molasses, Potato juice, all work. Naval jelly is messier than sanding with mineral spirits. Molasses works to take off the rust quite well but slowly. The chelating process removes the rust and leaves the metal a mat gray at the end. Potato juice is similar to molasses in effect and also in the horrible stench created. Electrolysis removes the rust and the resulting bath is actually quite innocuous. I routinely poured the baking soda and iron dust slurry resulting on the grass behind the shop to it's apparent benefit. After stripping the rust I proceeded to polish the blade with mineral spirits and progressive grits of silicone carbide wet and dry paper until it looked presentable. The derusting methods just added a step to the process. The polishing removed the rust from the plate by itself. The polishing could also be done in a small area in a minimal time compared to the 3 weeks the molasses took and even the overnight of electrolysis. For a flat plate I would forgo the derusting methods. Engine manifolds, cylinder blocks, heads, and numerous small intricate tractor, machine tool, and farm implement components have been submitted to electrolysis with great success. If I were to attempt a car body, the possibility of lining a giant wooden box with 10 mil plastic sheeting and submerging the entire mass in 55 gallons of molasses mixed with an appropriate amount of water would motivate me to put up with the horrible stench. I think. ------- Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 19:59:10 -0800 From: Brian Rytel Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: Derusting saws I've de-rusted a few saws with electrolysis followed by some scotchbrite (to remove any loose oxide) and then abraded with sandpaper. I 'lubricate' with ~20% simple green diluted in water. Cianci also started using simple green, once he realized he was inhaling too many mineral spirit fumes. Slightly cheaper in the long run as well. For me the sandpaper isn't very necessary for function, except maybe 2-3 swipes on either side just to make sure everything is smooth. For appearance be prepared to spend a little time with a couple grits of sandpaper. I built a simple box out of some MDF, ~30" W, ~6"D, ~8" H or so. I painted the whole thing with water-resistant paint and doubled up some 5-mil painter's plastic sheets inside to form a tank. I highly recommend using a white or light-grey paint for the inside. I painted mine black and it is dark & murky. Due to the large surface area of the saw plate there is quite a bit more gas being released than with other objects I've 'cooked' so be very sure to keep it in a ventilated area. It's also a bit of a trick to get the sacrificial electrode correct. Because the process is largely line-of- sight, it's best to keep the electrodes evenly spaced across the saw. Probably the best choice would be to cut a couple lengths of rebar ~24". My box was a bit narrow so I would only cook one side at a time. This was a real pain, so I recommend configuring it to both sides and using the same type/size of electrode on both. Brian J.M. Rytel ------- Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2014 23:00:44 -0500 From: John Leyden Subject: [OldTools] Re: Derusting saws Way in the back of the kitchen pantry I found a mostly unused gallon of white vinegar. Must have been there for years. Rather than pour it down the drain I soaked a small backsaw blade in it. Left it for two days and the rust just floated away. Dunked a Stanley No. 6 and a few other odds and ends. All came out fine with a brass brushing and lots of rags. Rinsed them in warm water, blotted with paper towels to remove standing droplets and put them in the kitchen oven on the "warm and hold" setting for 10 minutes or so. Gotta find me that recipe for roofing tar japan mixture for the No. 6. JL ------- Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 06:43:15 -0700 From: "Ken Vaughn" Subject: RE: [OldTools] Derusting saws I haven't been active on the porch for almost 2 years. In the past there were many advocates in this group of the Evapo-Rust product. I'm curious why no one has recommended it. I have used salt and vinegar solution (slow) and electrolysis (cumbersome) before trying Evapo-rust. I found it to beb reasonably fast and easy. It is non corrosive, safe on the hands, re-usable several times, and biodegradable. I have used it on plane bodies, high carbon steel, and regular steel tools, all with good results. I let the tool soak for 30 minutes in a room temperature solution and rub with 3M Scotch Brite pads, repeating as necessary. It won't harm paint or japanning which is sound. It may leave a slightly matte finish on some steels, but nothing like naval jelly. When you are satisfied with the results, rinse the tool with warm water, dry with a towel, and spray with WD40 (important). One gallon containers available at Harbor Freight, smaller amounts can often be found at auto supply stores. http://www.evapo-rust.com/ Ken Vaughn, who has used Evapo-Rust for several years with good results. ------- Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 07:28:50 +1100 From: Mick Dowling Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: Derusting Saws On 20/01/14 6:19 PM, "Mick Dowling" wrote: > Clynt, and GGs > Wheelie bins. The average leg vice is a nice fit in 120L bin. > http://www.cheapwheeliebins.com.au/ GGs. To be clear, the wheelie bin method is associated with electrolysis. 120L of water and sodium carbonate is cheap. Evaporust or any other liquid might stretch the budget (thanks Kirk). Mick Dowling ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 11:20:11 -0600 From: pdoubekx~xxxmission.com Subject: [OldTools] Re: Rust Removal > I recently traded one of my gold fillings for an old Stanley 45 that has about 85% of the nickel plating intact. By the looks of it it's spent the last few decades on the shelf collecting dust and rust. My question is, do any of you gentelman know of a way to clean up the rust spots without removing or damaging too much of the remaining nickel finish? Not expecting a miracle -- I went it over it with some steel wool and WD-40 but that's about it. < I'm a fan of using electrolysis for rust removal, followed by a light Scotch Brite pad, brass brush, or tooth brush clean up. It won't deal with heavy rust, and it leaves a dark patina wherever it removes surface rust. It won't damage plating or japanning that's sitting on clean iron, but if there's rust underneath the plating/finish it will cause it to flake. The one hassle with electrolysis on #45/#55 planes is that you can't easily remove the wooden handles, so you have to submerse the metal and leave the wood out of the solution. There are a number of articles and instructables on this process, but since I don't have any experience with the ones I'm finding I opted not to link them. Search fro 2 or 3... the process is simple. The details I'd recommend are: Pay careful attention to the power supply polarity- negative goes to your rusty tool Use washing soda or it's equivalent to make the electrolyte. Not baking soda, not salt (which I've seen recommended) Use a stainless steel plate or bolt as your anode. You can use most iron/steel, and the first article I read suggested iron rebar. Ferrous metals break down and make a nasty mess whereas with stainless I only end up with rust particles in my electrolyte. I bought a stainless sheet from the local hardware chain, and I wrap that with plastic screening. It provides a lot of surface area and the screen reduces the risk of shorting the tool to the anode. Good luck, Paul ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 14:41:59 -0400 From: Bob Miller Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: Rust Removal Using stainless steel for the anode will fill your water with hexavalent chromium compounds which are both quite bad for you and persistent in the environment. While I support people being able to decided for themselves if the risk outweighs the advantages of clean anodes I think people should be making informed decisions when engaging in recreational electrochemistry. It seems simple and clean but you can cook up all kinds of nastys if you do not know what you are doing. For some light reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexavalent_chromium Growing up around buffalo we got to learn about a different popular electrochemical reaction involving just saltwater. You can make all kinds of bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chloralkali_process Bob ------- Date: Thu, 24 Apr 2014 12:56:58 -0700 From: Brent Beach Subject: Re: [OldTools] Re: Rust Removal Wow! Only people with a spare hour or two should start hunting around on this topic. Yep, I just did. After reading several pages and discovering that people actually use electrolysis to produce hydrogen which they then add to the input air stream to their cars, I found this page http://users.eastlink.ca/~pspencer/nsaeta/electrolysis.html Look for hexa. Not much evidence but what there is appears to suggest that at voltages we use there is no problem. Personally I use baby oil and fine abrasives on hard blocks for most things, but do occasionally use the electrolysis tank. Don't use acids, even mild acids. Not sure why, just never have. Brent Beach Victoria, BC, Canada ------- Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2014 20:49:13 -0400 From: Frank Reid Subject: [OldTools] Evapo-Rust Has anyone used a cleaner called evapo-rust to clean rust from tools? Frank Reid Most of the time sitting on porch and listening. Eden, NC ------- Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 21:47:31 -0400 From: Steve Jones Subject: Re: [OldTools] Evapo-Rust Frank; Does a good job; leaves a flat gray surface that isn't real attractive. Steve in Kokomo ------- Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 20:55:37 -0500 From: John Holladay Subject: Re: [OldTools] Evapo-Rust Steve wrote: "Does a good job; leaves a flat gray surface that isn't real attractive" As does every acid based chemical method that I have tried thus far. So far, I've found white vinegar and a few days time to be as effective as anything. Also, nothing nasty to dispose of later. With that in mind, if it's just a light rust scale, I'll usually turn to WD-40, steel wool, razor blades and sometimes a little 400 or 600 grit sandpaper for the reason Steve mentioned. Doc ------- Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2014 22:27:17 -0400 From: Steve Jones Subject: Re: [OldTools] Evapo-Rust Evaporust is pretty benign - non-toxic, environmentally safe, etc. MSDS here: http://www.evaporust.com/docs/MSDS%20Evaporust.pdf ------- Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2014 04:06:42 -0700 From: Michael Blair Subject: Re: [OldTools] Evapo-Rust > Has anyone used a cleaner called evapo-rust to clean rust from tools? I have. People seemed really excited about it, so I ran out and bought a bottle. It worked. But I didn't think it worked better than cheap white vinegar -- certainly not enough better to justify the much greater expense. A gallon of white vinegar costs about a quarter of the price of a small bottle of Evaporust. Both leave the surface a dull grey that goes away with a little work with fine steel wool. Like Doc said, any mild acid produces about the same results, whether it is phosphoric acid or citric acid or... Mike in Sacto ------- Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 15:28:36 -0400 From: John Ruth Subject: RE: [OldTools] Latest finds > Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2014 14:33:47 -0400 > From: gtgrouchx~xxrochester.rr.com > > This sounds like a great way to get even exposure - I found that if my > anode was small and the tool was large, places close to the anode > derusted quickly. > > But if the anode were small, items like cast iron frying pans, had to be > turned after a while for even exposure. I imagine that saw plates might > be the same. > > Of course, if I forgot and left the pans in for two weeks, anode size > and placement didn't matter. > > YMMV, Gary Katsanis Albion NY, USA Gary, I'll share an electrolysis tip: You can use PLASTIC window screening to prevent the workpiece from shorting to the anode. (So, save those torn PLASTIC screen pieces from your window screen repair efforts. This is the fate of Galoots, to accumulate a whole bunch of "useful junk" that less adept people (SWMBO) see as a hoard of useless clutter.) The good news about forgetting an electrolysis in progress is that it will not attack the base metal, only the rust. The drawback of using a steel container as both the container and the electrode is of course that electrodes erode; a leak will ensue if you use it long enough. When you get to be really advanced in the art of electrolysis, you'll be doing things like electrolyzing the interiors of threaded holes with an iron wire anode. The trick, of course, is to avoid shorts. John Ruth ------- Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 10:50:21 -0400 From: Gary Katsanis Subject: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy Please respond off-list as this is only loosely related to old tools. I have a heavily rusted piece of what was high-strength steel in the 1800's. I want to restore the mechanism to functioning condition. Penalty for failure is severe and messy. Would electrolysis be an unacceptable method of dealing with the rust? I've heard of hydrogen embrittlement, but I don't know if it is a serious issue. Thanks for any advice, Gary Katsanis Albion New York, USA ------- Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 08:55:01 -0700 From: Scott Murman Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy why is this off topic? ------- Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 08:59:48 +1200 From: Michael Dawson Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy I don't know about what electrolysis might do the the metal, but I remove rust with a mixture of 9 parts water to 1 part molasses, soak the part in this mixture taking it out every few days to scrub off the dead rust sludge and the re-submerging, it removes only rust and there is no way it will be effecting the metal. Once all the rust is gone which can take from a couple of days to a few weeks depending on the depth of the rust, you give the metal a buff with a wire wheel and a coat of 3-in1 oil to protect the new surface, unless you're going to paint it in which case just leave the matt surface alone and just paint it. I have done this many times and I find the process perfect. It has the advantage of only eating the rust and not attacking the metal which the other processes tend to do. And if you buy stock feed molasses it will be even cheaper. Michael NZ ------- Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 07:41:04 -0400 From: Bill Ghio Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy This topic was well covered on the list in the 2000 - 2002 range. I remember because I was de rusting a lot of saws while living in a very small shop after selling the house and before finally retiring and moving east. What I have to say is well filtered by time thru a sieve for a brain, hence light on details. A careful search of the archives might be your best bet. As I recall, the hydrogen could be baked back out by letting the metal object soak in a heat for a period of time. Time and temp are now lost to me. But, based on the description at the time I decided that leaving the saw in the sun on the roof of the shop for a few days would be sufficient to reduce any such risk. I did that before sharpening the saws and can report that no tooth broke during sharpening, and better yet no saw broke in use. Therefore one must conclude the treatment was successful. About the same time I did salvage a non-wood working piece of late 19th C. equipment thru the electrolysis method and was quite happy with the the outcome. Good luck with your project. Bill ------- Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 10:13:37 -0400 From: Adrian Jones Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy I don't trust citric acid anymore. 3 out of the set of Stanley 45 blades came out cracked. Cheers ------- Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 15:40:49 -0400 From: "Cliff Rohrabacher, Esq" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy I used to think that molasses works on rust because it is rich in vitamin C : Ascorbic acid But it's actually way more complicated than that. There are several chelating agents in molasses that bind specifically to metals. There's copper oxide which interacts with rust as a reducing agent. Glucose acts as a reducing agent too. ------- Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 15:05:46 -0700 From: "Adam R. Maxwell" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy > On Jun 29, 2015, Chuck Ramsey wrote: > I still use vinegar to remove rust from tools but I love it less. > I believe that I have added pits to tools from prolonged soaking. Dunno if I've added pits or just revealed them, but after I ruined the C spring on grandpa's Starrett dividers by soaking in vinegar, I'm more careful. Adam ------- Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 18:09:47 -0500 From: Matthew Groves Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy I believe that springs are high on the list of things easy to damage by hydrogen embrittlement. This was possibly the origin of the question. Matthew Groves Springfield, MO ------- Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 16:38:46 -0700 From: Kirk Eppler Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy Or was it a case of the rust holding things together. Seen a few. Kirk in HMB, heading home soon. ------- Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 16:44:11 -0700 From: "Adam R. Maxwell" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy Not this time. The spring worked fine before I put it in, and looked fine when I took it out. Snapped as soon as I reinstalled it and closed the dividers. (If anyone has a spare or ideas for making a new one, let me know.) Adam ------- Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 01:43:15 +0000 From: David Nighswander Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy I've been fiddling with different methods of rust removal since being bitten by the rust bug. Chemical methods have advantages. Instead of rubbing and scrubbing to get the effects of oxygen off of my iron and steel the use of chemicals like citric, hydrochloric, and the case of vinegar acetic acid, acts on the surface rust almost effortlessly. But like all really easy options there is a catch. The acid will dissolve the rust fairly quickly. When the rust surface is removed the acid starts working on the iron and steel. I was cleaning a saw set and left it in the vinegar overnight. The frame of the set was nicely cleaned along with the adjustment screw, but when I went to put the thumb nut back on the screw it rattled. I have a theory that I believe explains both the screw being smaller and the more useful effect the acid has on the sharpening of files. Since I believe the acid works on all surfaces equally the acid removes an iron atom from every surface it touches. The screw thread, and file teeth, are triangular is cross section. Since the acid is working on the all surfaces the two sides each lose an atom and the point loses one also. That causes the thread, and tooth, to get thinner twice as fast as it gets shorter. Good for file sharpening not so good for cleaning screws. The file getting thinner doesn?t affect its function. The screw, on the other hand, has a problem when the diameter is reduced. Not only does the diameter get smaller, the thread is getting narrower. Next thing you know the thread is too small and ruined. What does this long explanation have to do with pits? Like a tooth, or thread, pits have two sides so they get wider twice as fast as they get shallower. Mechanical methods only work on the surface with the result that the pit can only get shallower. I think the same thing happens with any surface imperfection. A spring with a crack will get cleaner and have a bigger crack when the process is done. Add the effect of packing a bunch of hydrogen atoms into the iron carbon matrix and the spring ends up inflexible. I think that any weakness is multiplied by the chemical method. When I dealt with armor plate it was imperative that the metallurgy remain unchanged by the process. During the painting process I could use a chemical pretreat on 12560 with no concerns. 12560 is tough. MARS300 is hard. It couldn't be pretreated because it would crack 3 days later. Hydrogen embrittlement was the cause. ------- Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 00:19:55 -0400 From: Claudio DeLorenzi Subject: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy Making springs - For coil springs - these are easy to make- at least the small ones; use high carbon music wire of the appropriate gauge. Mount a piece of drill rod of the appropriate diameter for your spring on a lathe- (but unplug the lathe). Use a piece of hardwood with a tiny hole in it, pass the wire through it, and then clamp the wire to the drill rod on your lathe or better a small hole in the drill rod and clamp your hardwood block to the tool post. For heavy springs you need to use a metal follower. Manually turn your lathe with a hand crank for the appropriate number of turns plus a few - you can easily shorten, hard to lengthen a spring. Clamp the other end. Heat to cherry red and soak in good heat, then quickly quench the whole thing in oil, pull it out and then quickly polish it up so you can see the temper colors as the heat remaining in the drill rod radiates to the wire...then gently reheat it until it turns purple-blue temper color. Apparently guys who knew what they were doing used to do this with a metal lathe running really slow... I've made only a few springs so I'm not an expert. Heavy gauge spring making is much more difficult and a bit dangerous because you have to do it under power and is a whole different experience...but little thin ones are not too difficult. Keep it wound on the drill rod when heating otherwise it cools too fast when trying to quench and then temper. Easier to time it all when working with more mass. That's all I can remember about it. I found this technique in one of the little machine shop series of books from Britain, but I couldn't find it just now. Claudio ------- Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 11:32:09 -0700 From: Kirk Eppler Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy On Tue, Jun 30, 2015, Don Schwartz wrote: >Making a spring has worked satisfactorily for me. It would be helpful for >you to know the wire gauge and length of the spring. Perhaps someone can >post a photo and provide measurements for that model brace http://www.bob-easton.com/blog/2009/963/ Bob has a thing on winding your own springs here. Seems like George's Basement had something on stealing them from Ball Point pens, but I can't find that link anymore. Kirk Eppler in HMB, who got another baby step done in garage cleanup last night. 997 more to go. ------- Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 18:06:35 +1000 From: "Peter Evans" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Off Topic for People Who Know Some Metallurgy Spring steel should not go into acid, especially if under tension. I have not seen the effect on spring steel because I have never used it on spring steel including saws. Acid keeps on working after the rust is removed and etches steel -- that is how files are sharpened after all. Cast iron seems less affected. The solution is vigilance, checking items regularly and removing earlier rather than later is the method. I removed some superficial rust from NOS files after 15 minutes in the citric. Followed by removing ALL moisture with a hair dryer. Cheers Peter Evans Sydney, Australia ------- Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 14:45:01 +0000 From: georgex~xxgeorgesbasement.com Subject: Re: [OldTools] Hydrogen embrittlement and making new springs for old tools Gary Katsanis wrote: > I have a heavily rusted piece of what was high-strength steel in the > 1800's. I want to restore the mechanism to functioning condition. > Penalty for failure is severe and messy. > Would electrolysis be an unacceptable method of dealing with the > rust? I've heard of hydrogen embrittlement, but I don't know if it > is a serious issue. The metallurgist replies: Hydrogen embrittlement occurs when an acid (or electrolysis) liberates hydrogen atoms at the surface of the steel, whereupon they are driven into the metal by chemical forces. Any stressed areas of the steel promote the recombination of the dissolved hydrogen atoms to generate hydrogen gas, which pries apart the grain boundaries in the steel so that the resulting fracture surfaces have a "rock candy" appearance. Experienced non-metallurgists say that their steel whatsis broke because it "crystallized." Saws curled up for electrolysis in a bucket will demonstrate this very nicely, if you don't mind the noise. The critical hardness is 300 Brinell. Saws, chisels, plane blades, springs and the like fall in the susceptible category. Don't try electrolysis or acid treatments on those unless you know that they have been stress relieved (e.g., tempered) beforehand. I don't remove rust from such gadgets with either method, as I think that even when they don't break, they look awful afterwards. Weldable steels are OK, as welding often causes hydrogen to enter them, and they don't crack afterwards, unless the steel was air-arc gouged beforehand with a carbon electrode, which carburizes the prepared surfaces, so some parts of the subsequent weld get too hard. How do I remove rust ? With a dull chisel or scraper and a lot of elbow grease. The red rust is what gets removed, leaving the black rust behind, which is much harder. That also leaves a passably smooth surface which is sufficiently porous to hold some protective oil. The scraper (made from an old triangular file) is less likely to dig in, because you're pushing it with your fingers, not with your entire upper body. Still, it's gotta be dull or it will scratch the steel. It also has to be quite hard ... like a file. If you're really determined to use acid, the method I have used in my consulting work combines dilute hydrochloric acid (ten percent, what they sell for etching concrete at the hardware store) with about four grams of hexamethylenetetramine (a.k.a. hexamine) per liter. The hexamine inhibits attack of the steel by the acid. Rinse and dry thoroughly afterwards. All of the rust, even the black stuff, is removed in a few hours at room temperature. You can get hexamine as those heating tablets that one uses on camping trips. The spent acid can be neutralized after use by adding crushed limestone (agricultural lime) until it no longer sizzles. On the topic of spring-making: Chuck springs have two problems: Too loose a fit, and they buckle and get squashed between the jaws when the chuck is tightened; too tight, and they hang up on the corners of the hole with the same result. Solution: Wind your own springs. Hjorth invented a very nice spring- winding tool which can be found every so often. There are two sizes, one which is about the size of a small pipe wrench and no good for chuck springs, the other is about three inches long, which is perfect. I learned a long time ago that the ideal spring for this purpose crams the most and largest wire that will fit into the holes of the chuck jaws when the chuck is fully closed. That produces a pretty stiff chuck spring, but it's less vulnerable than a fashion-model spring. Also long ago, I cornered the market on spring wire, as I went to MSCDirect.com and cleaned 'em out of all the available sizes. Then I got a couple of sets of wire-gauge drill blanks. That leaves georgesbasement.com as the go-to place for replacement chuck springs. They aren't intended to fool the judges at the oldtools _concours d'elegance_, but your chuck will work a lot better afterwards. This will entail your sending me all three jaws so I can hand fit the new springs. Cost is five bucks plus postage ... galoot terms. See my methodology here: ..../mfno2typestudy/MakingChuckSprings/MakingChuckSprings.htm I can also make oddball springs with a pair of needlenose pliers, but so can you, if you have an old spring to use as a pattern. George Langford, trying to consolidate thirty years of metallurgy reports in SE PA. http://www.georgesbasement.com/ ------- NOTE TO FILE: More of this conversation specific to making springs is contained in the file here called Simple Metal Forming. ------- Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:29:43 -0400 From: Mark Pfeifer Subject: [OldTools] question for "metallurgists" Since I don?t want to run across the ListMom by forwarding too much I'm starting a new thread: I'm on a budget so i like to buy 'em ugly. So I've tuned in an electrolysis and very mild acid treatment that is giving me satisfactory results (hardness, cleanness, patina, rust resistance) on heavily rusted items. I have one nagging concern I have is disposing the by product of the electrolysis. I'm careful to use only real steel as anodes, never stainless. I only use electrolysis on things that are clearly 100% steel, nothing that doesn't clearly hold a magnet. Anything I use it on is scrubbed during degreasing to make sure there's no trace of brass, copper, etc. So while it's possible there's something sneaking in other than steel, baking soda, and water ... I'm not concerned about that potentially carcinogenic reaction I've read about. I only do it at the door, with a box fan right over the vat to blow any vapors out of the shop, so I'm not worried about gases like hydrogen building up. But the nasty black - red - foamy stew that's left over after I do 3-4 items ... I've been pouring it out in a remote area of my multiple acre property, generally on a day when it's raining, or I have reasonable assurance that it will rain within 24 hours. I believe what I'm doing is pouring out water, baking soda, and relatively minor amounts of iron oxide, none of which is harmful. I've tried to find confirmation online ... Leaving aside highly technical EPA or state regulation things that someone might throw out ...can any of the more knowledgeable galoots give me some comfort or warning here? The amounts don't concern me for ground water, etc., and no animal is stupid enough to drink this slurry ... mostly I want to make sure I'm not poisoning trees in the immediate area. -------- Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2015 13:09:19 -0400 From: Ed Minch Subject: Re: [OldTools] question for "metallurgists" I have used stainless pot lids for my anodes for 15 years with no problems. I have changed the liquid in the 5 gallon bucket perhaps every 3-4 years, after adding a bit of water and more washing soda in the interim - I wait til there is a layer of crud on the bottom. I have poured on the lawn with no visible effects. The biggest problem I seem to have is keeping the alligator clip that is submerged intact - the wire wants to corrode at the clip and I need to refasten it periodically. Ed Minch ------- Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2015 22:40:09 -0700 From: scott grandstaff Subject: Re: [OldTools] question for "metallurgists" I never had any ill effects dumping electrolysis guck myself. And I've dumped a lot. Never had any trouble with a stainless annode either. 20 some odd years, and I am no more than "mostly dead". heh I use low amperage for heavens sake. It's not like I am cleaning pirate ship cannons in a swimming pool with arc welder power. It's dinky power, my setup. I have a tank I built just long enough for saws when needed. A wooden box lined with heavy "pond liner" plastic. I've also used several different kinds of acids and a gudzillion kinds of wire brushes and abrasives too. Even blasted a bit. Tried most things at one time or other. But lately though, I tend to use scrapers a lot. Scrapers and razor blades. It takes some practice to cut what you want, and leave what you want to keep. But it's just work, you'll get it if you try. Scrapers ain't just for wood you know. I have personally scraped onyx and other stones that were soft enough to scrape. I have scraped a lot of cast iron. Steel, whatever. Same old scraper you use on curly maple cuts iron too, ya know. Not sure about the "hours long fussy edges" people put on their scrapers. But drawfile and go? Works fine for me yours Scott Scott Grandstaff Box 409 Happy Camp, Ca 96039 http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/sgrandstaff/ http://www.snowcrest.net/kitty/hpages/index.html ------- Way rust [atlas618lathe] Posted by: ljbellingerx~xxgmail.com lbuddy69 Date: Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:55 pm ((PDT)) So I watched all of Jster refurb videos and liked his comments on Evaporust. My ways were a total mess but rather than building a container and soaking the whole bed in the solution, I covered the ways with paper towels soaked in Evaporust, inverted the bed, and wrapped the bed in a plastic wrap. 24 hrs later the ways were clean. ------- Re: Way rust Posted by: egpacex~xxhotmail.com egpace Date: Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:12 pm ((PDT)) Yes, Evaporust really does a great job. I've got a 120 year old Hardinge Cataract bed rusted to hell, I'm going to try your paper towel method on it. Thanks for the post! Ed Pace ------- Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:30:49 +0000 From: David Nighswander Subject: Re: [OldTools] cleaning old rust >> I have primarily user tools but like them to look >> nice (but no polished finishes). >I haven't tried the electro-chemical method, myself. I've used Naval Jelly, but it is such a mess. I tried Evaporust, and don't see any advantage over vinegar large enough to justify the difference in cost (which is huge). Both leave that dull grey "patina" but a little work with steel wool takes care of that.< I agree with the principle of why the dull grey patina appears. The surface is eaten away by the rust and leaves a rougher surface. I would add a caution though. I have found that the acid based removers -- i.e. vinegar, citric, muratic, molasses, potato, etc., will actually eat away the surface if left for any appreciable time unattended. The metal leaves more slowly than the rust but the acid does dissolve the metal. I have not found that to be an issue with electrolysis. Dave N. aka Old Sneelock ------- Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 06:57:33 -0400 From: Adrian Jones Subject: [OldTools] Rust removal using tea! Hi folks, The other day I was espousing to the spouse about the merits of tea drinking. She mentioned that tea contains tannic acid, which of course reminded me of our recent discussion of the various acids used in rust removal. On a whim, I tried the dregs from the tea pot on a rusty drill bit. It seemed to work! So then onto plane irons: http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/Epictetus/slideshow/Derusting%20wi th%20tea The best of it, apart from the fact that it is free and harmless, is there is none of that awful, awful stink that you get with citric acid or Evaporust. Cheers! ------- Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2015 09:01:55 -0400 From: Mark Pfeifer Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rust removal using tea! > On Oct 8, 2015, Ralph via OldTools wrote: > How long did you have to soak the plane blades to get them that clean? > Looks like tea might be a good option. Thanks. > Ralph I experimented on some junk augur bits that had been ruined by previous owner's 'sharpening'. Coke or Pepsi . . . 24 hours leaves them black just like they'd be if I had used electrolysis. Black easy to remove with gentle scrubbing with a finishing pad. Cola with some vinegar added in (figuring more acid less time) didn't speed anything up. It did seem to penetrate pits better. But this set re-rusted much faster than the other set. I've not done a split sample yet to figure out if it was the composition/age of the second set of bits, or the vinegar, that caused them to re-rust faster. If there?s a chemist/metallurgist anywhere on earth who will know the answer, he or she is on this list ... MPf -------- Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 10:31:41 -0400 From: Adrian Jones Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rust removal using tea! On 10/8/2015 8:15 AM, Ralph wrote: > How long did you have to soak the plane blades to get them that > clean? Looks like tea might be a good option. Just overnight. The tea solution had turned jet black and the irons had blackened -- I just used a beat up nylon pot scrubber in soapy water to remove the black and then finished up with dollar store baby oil. ------- Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2015 10:38:41 -0400 From: Adrian Jones Subject: Re: [OldTools] Rust removal using tea! On 10/8/2015 8:48 AM, Ed Minch wrote: > What kind of tea? Are there big chemical differences in teas - > herbal? regular? > Ed Minch I used PG Tips (typical black English breakfast tea, Paddy). I'm getting in some Tetley's (typical black English breakfast tea, Paddy) from Amazon in a couple of days, but I'm betting there is no difference. Just use what is left in the teapot. I suppose tea bags (ugh) would give the same result but I like leaf tea best. I'm thinking herbal won't be as good (less tannic acid?) No, coffee doesn't work. ------- Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 12:48:36 -0400 From: Claudio DeLorenzi Subject: Re: [OldTools] Example of vinegar de-rusting Re Vinegar for rust removal: Regular vinegar is ~ 5% acetic acid. In the cleaning supply area of Home Hardware (in Canada) you can often find "cleaning vinegar" which is ~10% acetic acid (other suppliers may have 8%-check the label). It's usually about the same price as the regular food grade stuff from the grocery store. I find the higher concentration convenient because it just works faster (plus it works great for windows and general cleaning of scale from hard water etc). Soaking a couple of hours or so will clean most of the moderate rust, and maybe overnight for the more severely rusted stuff. Don't forget your stuff in there for weeks though (it will eventually 'dissolve'). I also use this soaking technique for quick rehab of bargain priced used flea market files and rasps. The files come out of the solution with thick black crud that comes off pretty easily with a brass wire brush (even the crud at the deepest parts of double cut files comes out). I find that this will clean out the grooves and chemically "sharpen" the teeth giving me very inexpensive, reasonably sharp files (sometimes 'as new'). I use files for wood as well as shaping metal, and I find it convenient to have many shapes and styles to hand for all sorts of odd jobs. Usually no one wants used files so you can usually get them at a very good price, It often works out in my favor to buy a handful of these and drop them in vinegar overnight to see what I've got. Give it a try- you will be surprised by how well this usually works. Sure you will get a few duds, but often the files are just really dirty and have plenty of life left in them. I'm not sure if it weakens the edges or not (ie reduces the life of the file), but for the money, it usually works out favorably. (Maybe someone who knows metal can comment on this?) Besides, there are so many uses for the high carbon steel, it's worth picking some up just to experiment with (for example, you can put a couple into the hot coals after your next BBQ and then leave them to cool slowly in the ashes to anneal the steel to rework it giving it a new purpose rather than landfill. Does anyone know if the edges of steel files are permanently damaged (or weakened) by soaking in acid? Cheers, Claudio in Waterloo, ON ------- Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 18:23:31 +0000 From: Chuck Ramsey Subject: Re: [OldTools] Example of vinegar de-rusting Claudio DeLorenzi wrote: >Does anyone know if the edges of steel files are permanently damaged (or >weakened) by soaking in acid? Of course the answer is, "Depends". Depends on the strength of the acid, the time of contact and no doubt other things I can't think of at the moment. I recall The Old Millrat writing about a used rasp that he put into a container of serious acid (muriatic acid?) to clean the rasp. He forgot about it for a while (a week or weeks?) and when he remembered to remove the rasp it had holes in the tool. I recall the photos of this rasp and what was left resembled a surform blade or a cheese grater. One very dead useless rasp was the result. [Snip] Don't forget your stuff in there for weeks though (it will eventually 'dissolve'). [End of Snip] I too use household/grocery store vinegar for my rust removal. I use it because it's cheap, available, kitchen safe and vinegar works. My flea market old tools get washed with hot water and maybe a squirt of dish washing soap in the kitchen sink. I scrub the tools with a green dish washing pad and maybe a small brass bristled brush. Then I dry them and dump them in a container of of vinegar usually overnight. The container is left open on the kitchen counter exposed to food preparation and a pair of cats who sometimes venture onto the counter. When I pull them out of the vinegar I use the same cleaning method I used before I dumped them in the vinegar with the addition of special attention to the drying. The only problem I have had is neglecting to remove the tools after an overnight soak. When I have soaked the tools in the vinegar for a week it seemed to me that there were more and deeper pits in the "cleaned" tool that I had expected or desired. I have yet to "dissolve" a tool or turn a file into a cheese grater but I suspect that given enough time it could happen. Also if the tool is not completely submerged there will be a line on the tool to indicate where the vinegar level was. chuck ------- Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 12:38:17 -0700 From: "Adam R. Maxwell" Subject: Re: [OldTools] Example of vinegar de-rusting Go read everything in the archives that George Langford has written (not kidding; he knows this stuff): http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=255300 http://swingleydev.com/archive/get.php?message_id=64253&submit_thread=1 Adam (who has stopped soaking steel tools in vinegar) ------- Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:35:46 -0500 From: Ed Minch Subject: [OldTools] De-rust GGG. Was watching one of the car shows and they were talking about rust removal. The Evapo-Rust guy was showing his stuff, but he had a trick. He had purchased an ultrasonic parts cleaner off the internet (a tank about the size of a toaster oven), filled it with Evapo-Rust, let it heat up, and cleaned a VERY rusty bolt in 15 minutes. So for those of you that have to have a part clean right away, here you go. Ed Minch ------- Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:40:51 -0600 From: John Holladay Subject: Re: [OldTools] De-rust That's an interesting idea. You can get a small ultrasonic jewelry cleaner very inexpensively at Harbor Freight. I wonder if this would work with any acid based solution, like white vinegar? John Holladay 205-229-8484 ------- Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 14:44:15 +0000 (UTC) From: Bob Page Subject: Re: [OldTools] De-rust Yup. I have used Evapo-Rust for a long time and am very pleased with its performance. To speed up the process (which usually takes overnight), I've been looking for a decent ultrasonic cleaning unit myself. I have bid on a few, but have yet to be successful in acquiring one. Bob PageIn da U.P. of Michigan ------- Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2016 12:17:46 -0600 From: Brent Kinsey Subject: Re: [OldTools] De-rust My son-in-law collects vintage and patent ratchets and wrenches and he uses evaporust in a small sonic tank and has been very happy with the results. Brent Kinsey ------- ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------