------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------ Here find many useful tips applicable to the Sherline mill, and possibly other similar machines. A Sherline mill or lathe owner will get some useful information by reading the Taig mill and lathe files as the machines are similar enough in size to share some problems and solutions and tooling. If you got to this file directly from my HOME PAGE, return there by using your browser's back button. BUT if you came to this file as the result of a web search engine, see many additional files on my home page Machining and Metalworking at Home http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html SAFETY WARNING BEWARE: DO NOT ASSUME that any subject matter or procedure or process is safe or correct or appropriate just because it was mentioned in a news/user group or was included in these files or on this site or on any other web site or was published in a magazine or book or video. Working with metals and machinery and chemicals and electrical equipment is inherently dangerous. Wear safety devices and clothing as appropriate. Remove watches, rings, and jewellery -- and secure or remove loose clothing -- before operating any machine. Read, understand and follow the latest operating procedures and safety instructions provided by the manufacturer of your machine or tool or product. 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(c) Copyright 2003 - 2014 Machining and Metalworking at Home The form of the collected work in this text file (including editing, additions, and notes) is copyrighted and this file is not to be reproduced by any means, including electronic, without written permission except for strictly personal use. ========================================================================== From: Flosi Gudmundsson Date: Sat May 20, 2000 9:29am Subject: Re: locking axis on Sherline Milling Machine In sherlinex~xxegroups.com, craig.mazurx~xxn... wrote: > Is there a way of independently locking the x, y, and z axis on the > 5400 Sherline Milling Machine? Doug Briney's book "The Home > Machinist's Hankbook" talks about locking screws and Joe Martin's > book doesn't mention it. I can't find a screw labeled so in the > exploded view. Thanks in advance. The information is there. The locking screws are just called something else. Refer to figure 1 on page 3-2-1 in Tabletop Machining. The locking screws are named: "Column saddle friction adjustment screw", "Saddle friction adjustment screw" and "Table lock assembly". Flosi ------- From: Tom Bank Date: Sun May 21, 2000 4:53pm Subject: Re: locking axis on Sherline Milling Machine The other thing about Doug Briney's book and the early edition of Joe Martin's book is that they predated development of the new column lock nut. If you have an older mill with only the socket head screw that tightens a ball bearing against the column gib, it is worth it to get the upgrade, which works by tightening the locknut (via a built in handle) against the column saddle nut. You could make one for yourself, but to do so you would need either a spare saddle nut (which would actually make two locking nuts) or the ability to cut 3/8" 20 LEFT-HAND threads, internal as well as external (after making the nut -- oversized in the thread length dimension -- you would need to mount it to shave the end repeatedly as well as the mating end of the saddle nut; the objective being to have the lock nut handle swing through the limited arc available and lock against the saddle nut. To cut the required threads, you would need to fabricate an extra part for the Sherline threading set, it doesn't cut 20 threads left-hand as it comes and even MSC doesn't stock 3/8" 20 left-hand taps and dies. The Sherline part kit is a chunk of change, but it is worth it because it contains both the lock nut and a new saddle nut which has been matched for the lock point. The saddle nut also has a small (1/8" ?) ball bearing and spring to keep the lock nut out of the way when not in use. The other two locks are a 10-32 SH screw on the front of the table saddle next to the Y axis screw and a small handle on the left side of the same saddle that presses into the Y axis gib to lock that direction. They don't need the locking strength of the column lock because they don't operate against gravity. Hope this is helpful. ------- From: kr-lei... Date: Mon Jul 10, 2000 11:07 am Subject: Help! My end mill holder is stuck.... on the headstock spindle and I can't get it off! Does anyone have any suggestions? I've already bent several sets of Tommy bars. I fear for the worse... Thanks, Leila ------- From: "Hoeffer, Ty" Date: Mon Jul 10, 2000 11:22 am Subject: RE: [sherline] Help! My end mill holder is stuck.... Try heating the endmill holder up some, this will cause it to expand, then try removing it. If that fails cool it in Ice water, try again. The holder should be SNUG only NOT tight. Ty Hoeffer ------- From: David Goodfellow Date: Mon Jul 10, 2000 11:15 am Subject: Re: [sherline] Help! My end mill holder is stuck.... Leila, I've had that problem and for me the solution was simple. Instead of reefing on the Tommy bar, insert the Tommy bar and give it a sharp rap with a brass hammer. The shock will break it loose where mere muscle won't. At least that has worked for me ... Dave Goodfellow. ------- From: robertf... Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 3:40 am Subject: New to machining. I just bought a 5400. I read the instruction about tapping( with a hammer) the draw bolt to get the MT out. My concern is will the tapping eventually destroy the bearings? I called the company to get an idea of the torque required to tighten up the draw bolt but I was told "turn it till it's snug". I dont have a snug scale on my torque wrench ;). Does someone has a real value in say in-lbs? Thanks ------- From: Ron Ginger Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 8:34 am Subject: Re: [sherline] New to machining. robertfx~xxm... wrote: > I just bought a 5400. I read the instruction about tapping( with a > hammer) the draw bolt to get the MT out. My concern is will the > tapping eventually destroy the bearings? I called the company to get > an idea of the torque required to tighten up the draw bolt but I was > told "turn it till it's snug". I dont have a snug scale on my torque > wrench ;). Does someone has a real value in say in-lbs? A Morse tape is designed to be self locking. The draw bolt only serves to pull it into lock. Some Morse arbors, notably on old drill presses, dont even have a draw bolt, they rely on being tapped into place. So just turn the bolt 'snug' and dont worry about the torque. If the bolt head was just a tiny bit larger and knurled you could do fine just finger tight. As to hammering out the center, this also make me very nervous. I dont worry about the bearings, I suspect they will handle it fine. But I do worry about knocking the head out of line, or ruining the threads of the collet. Be sure you leave a lot of the thread in the collect, before you hammer on the bolt, else you can damage the threads. Loosen the bolt only about 1 turn, whack it loose, then unscrew it the rest of the way. Some bigger machines have a captive drawbar such that you can use two wrenches and force the draw bolt out by pressure against the captive nut. I dont see anyway to do that for a Sherline. I flinch every time I whack the end of the drawbolt, but I dont know any other way. ron ------- From: Nhut Le Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 10:41 am Subject: Re: [sherline] New to machining. Check out Sherline's tips section for my suggestion on how to remove MT tools from the spindle. ------- From: Luis Longeri Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 10:50 am Subject: Re: [sherline] New to machining. I don't tap the draw bolt, because I ended up with one draw bolt slightly bent. Instead I take out the draw bolt and I tap using a steel bar (wider than the draw bolt so I won't damage any thread). Anyway I don't like the tapping either so I tap very gently while I am holding the morse head tightly with my other hand. Luis Longeri ------- From: "Arnold & Diane Chord" Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 7:34 am Subject: Re: [sherline] New to machining. From my own experience snug would be as tight as your hand will get it. Possibly from there turn with a wrench 1/4 to 1/2 of a turn, less than than that if you are a power weight lifter. ------- From: Bradford Chaucer Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 5:10 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] New to machining. Snug, tighten till the drawbar snaps then back off half a turn :-) Seriously you don't need a torque wrench, just tighten with a small wrench "loosely held " in 3 fingers. In other words, don't lean on it, and forego the 24 inch breaker bar! As to "HAMMERING" I use a light tapping hammer, not a framing hammer, or preferably a lead or brass cylinder held (i.e. 1in dia 2 in long or thereabouts) in the hand. Again the goal is a sharp impulse not a blow with a maul! Regards, Bradford Chaucer ------- From: "William Rutiser" Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 7:24 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] New to machining. > As to "HAMMERING" I use a light tapping hammer, not a framing hammer, > or preferably a lead or brass cylinder held (i.e. 1in dia 2 in long > or thereabouts) in the hand. Again the goal is a sharp impulse not > a blow with a maul! I often use the Sherline "T" handled hex wrench for this. ( Hold the metal part and rap the plastic part on the bolt ) By the way, NONE of the 10-32 hex bolts on Sherline equipment should be over tightened. Finger pressure on the arm of an allen wrench should be sufficient. Bill Rutiser ------- From: area51tats... Date: Tue Jul 11, 2000 6:11 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] New to machining. stop flinching. just loosen the draw bar so that it is only a thread or two loose and give it a nice little tap with a deadblow hammer or brass or lead. that way most of the force will be transfered through the threads into the collet and will not damage the collet or the drawbar in any way. Gerald ------- From: wanliker... Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 1:15 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Re: draw bar speculation I have an EMCO mill that uses a special nut and socket head draw bars to release the mill holder. It looks like the Sherline could be easily converted. Items needed: 1. Socket headed draw bar bolt. If necessary reduce the outside diameter of the head to fit the nut described below. 2. Thread the outside top end of the Sherline spindle with an external thread, to suit the size of the spindle. 3. Make a special nut, it is threaded internally for the thread on the Spindle, the nut is closed at one end, (like a pipe cap), with a hole in the cap end to allow an Allen wrench to go thru, that will fit the draw bar bolt, It also needs a set of wrench flats on the outside. To use: Loosen drawbar cap screw, about 1 -2 turns. Place special nut over the top, turning it down until it hits the drawbar bolt, hold the drawbar with the Allen wrench, thru the hole in the end of the nut, use a wrench to turn the nut further down and it will push the drawbar down and release the collet. The drawbar must be held so that it will not rotate when the nut pushes on it. Much harder to describe than to do, and no pounding on the spindle bearings. Note the nut is fairly long, threaded internally, but one end is closed, so it will push on the drawbar bolt, and has a small hole thru it for the Allen wrench, to keep the drawbar from turning. Hope this is clearer than mud, bill ------- From: "Kevin P. Martin" Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 3:04 pm Subject: RE: [sherline] Re: draw bar speculation A few comments on the "ejection cap" suggested by wanlikerx~xxa... At first I thought a large-sized acorn nut would do the trick, but I don't think the cap portion of an acorn nut would last very long with this treatment. If the thread pitch of the cap is coarser than that of the drawbolt (which it would typically be, having a larger diameter), it is not necessary to restrain the drawbolt's rotation. Even if the drawbolt turns with the cap, you still get a net ejection motion on the MT insert. The original idea was seen on an EMCO mill. However, I think that for the Sherline an extra (semi-permanent) part is required. The shoulder washer which sits between the drawbolt head and the spindle back end has the same OD as the spindle, and would interfere with the use of this ejection cap. I suspect that what you would have to do is (as above) thread the end of the spindle, and install a bushing on the end of the spindle. The outside of this bushing is also threaded to accomodate the cap. The bushing must have a large enough OD to be threaded in a size whose minor diameter is larger than the shoulder washer OD. You then install the bushing before the drawbolt is installed and used. For my first attempt at this, I would probably use a large coupling nut with a stub of threaded rod (brazed?) in place to form the cap, and the bushing would be made from another stub of threaded rod which has been drilled out and tapped to match the thread cut into the spindle. But until I do this, I will continue to whack the thing with a wooden mallet to extract it. Kevin Martin p.s. I tighten my drawbolt until I feel the hard spot. When turning the bolt head by hand, it reaches a point where the slack is taken up and I cannot turn it by hand any more. I then use the wrench; for quite a while (maybe up to 2 turns?) it spins quite easily with the wrench, then suddenly firms up. That's when I stop. Given that I restrain spindle rotation by gripping the pulley, I would not be able to tighten it much more anyway. ------- From: "Marcus & Eva" Date: Wed Jul 12, 2000 11:39 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Drawbar part 2 >Aw, just smack it! Alan Alan: YES!!! I agree. I've been "just smacking it" for years. I've never had a problem. ------- From: Dave Martindale Date: Fri Jul 14, 2000 6:31 pm Subject: another collet removal idea Along the lines suggested by "robertf", how about using a woodworking bar clamp? The fast-acting type doesn't require turning a screw handle, they often come with soft faces that won't mark wood let alone metal, and you can get any length you want. As long as the soft pad on one end was large enough to cover the spindle nose, I think this would work well. Generally, bearing manufacturers warn that bearings shouldn't be subjected to shock loads, since that can produce flats on the balls or depressions in the races. Does anyone have a feel whether the level of "whacking" used for collet removal is ever enough force to damage the headstock bearings? Dave ------- From: "Les Grenz" Date: Wed Jul 19, 2000 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] 3/8" end-mill holder... how does it center? From: jasonspanglex~xxh... >>> Hey everyone, I was wondering how the Sherline 3/8" end-mill holder worked, (how does it hold/center the end-mills) and if it is a good addition to the tool box. thanks, Jason <<< Jason - The holder just has a 3/8 hole in it and hold the end mill with a set screw on the flat of the end-mill. Works great. Everyone should have one. I have made my own for oddball shanks like 6mm shanks. Otherwise all my endmills for the Sherline are 3/8. Good to standardize your tooling as much as possible. Regards from Les Grenz & the Queen City of the Rockies. ------- From: Steve Clark Date: Wed Jul 19, 2000 2:13 pm Subject: RE: [sherline] 3/8" end-mill holder... how does it center? That is about all I use for actual milling. I have collets too for smaller shank single ended mills but I rarely use them. I purchased two inexpensive sets of standard 3/8 shank double-ended end mills (two flute and four flute) and they work great with it. The hole in the holder is a close tolerance to the outside of the mill shank which centers the mill. The end mill is then secured by an allen set screw which tightens up onto the flat spot of the end mill. The holder is also great for holding a dial test indicator when doing alignment. ------- Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:58:08 -0500 From: Ty Hoeffer Subject: Re: Re: Problems Fly Cutting [sherline] On Tuesday 20 February 2001, you wrote: >> Question: Where are the locks for the X and Y axes on the 2000 mill? I'm new to all of this stuff and haven't found them yet. Unless I missed it, I don't think that the documentation says anything about them either. I found the lever on the Z axis with no problems. -- Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio << Jerry, Look at the table there the Y axis leadscrew enters the saddle. Just to the Right of the leadscrew is a10-32 CHS that holds the index mark for the table graduations. This is the X axis lock. Just grab an allen wrench & tighten this some ( not too tight now.. ). Also there is a knurled knob to the Left of the leadscrew on the side of the saddle. this pushes the GIB strip in against the Y Axis dovetail efectively "locking" the Y axis. They are not as pretty as the Z axis but they dont wear out as quickly as the Z axis saddle nut lock. Hope this helps. Ty ------- Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 07:46:46 -0000 From: ssmithx~xxserena.com Subject: new pictures of my accessories [sherline] I have updated the pictures of micro cutoff tool and holder. I also added some pictures of some other accessories I made for the Sherline mill. Go to the File section and look for "microcutoff" Include is a 3 jaw chuck keeper. When using a T-slot adapter with the 3 jaw chuck on the mill you need to prevent rotation. This is a handy device for this. The other device is a bracket to hold a dial indicator onto the headstock without putting it in a chuck. It is made to use a univeral holder and can be used in the up position as shown and lowered by swinging it down. Steve ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:46:50 -0500 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: Pulley Wheel gavin.Eyrex~xxrsl.com wrote: > While drilling some small holes yesterday the drive pulley on top of > the mill head dropped down and started rubbing on the top of the > casing. I was able to lift the pulley back up into position and all > seems to be OK - or am I deluding myself???? The pulley has a set screw in it, in the smaller pulley, that holds it to the shaft. You need to check and tighten that set screw. Its probably under the drive belt, so you will have to move the belt. Then loosen the screw, position the pulley to have some clearance to the headstock and retighten it. ron ginger ------- Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:10:31 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Pulley Wheel Gavin: It sounds like the pulley set screw may have come loose. Loosen it up, index the pulley about 90°, return it to the proper height so it doesn't rub on the case and retighten the set screw. The set screw is located in the bottom of the smaller pulley groove, so if your drive belt is in that groove you will have to first remove the belt to get to the set screw. The reason for rotating the pulley so the set screw tightens on a new part of the spindle is so that you don't pick up the old dimple and return the set screw to the same position it was before. Do the same thing when readjusting handwheels to remove backlash. Sincerely Yours, Craig Libuse ------- Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:14:09 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: New Member > In the instructions it is pointed out that one can overtighten > the t nuts and distort the slots in the table. What is considered > too tight? I didn't see a torque spec that addressed this. John: A good suggestion came up before on this one. If you use the short end of the hex key and tighten with just two fingers, you probably won't overtighten. Since each setup is differnent, it isn't really possible to supply a torque value that would apply in all cases. Keep in mind the leverage you can apply in a very small area using a 32 TPI thread and a lever arm (hex wrench). A 10 pound force applied a couple of inches out on a hex wrench is a 650 pound force at the tip of the screw. Remember that you're only dealing with 1/3 horsepower here, not 3 HP. The lower loads don't require as much holding force as would be required on more powerful tools. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- [SHERLINE MILL T-NUT SUBSTITUTES] Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 17:49:21 -0500 From: Tom Bank Subject: Re: T-nuts, was Re: So Many Questions.. >> I have used square nuts on my mill, I did have to grind them down to fit then put a length of threaded rod in and silver soldered. Nice when you are working with bigger pieces. Gary Severson << Yes, that can be done. But what I did was to machine a 1/4" - 20 bolt head narrower and thinner. I cut the thickness down mostly from the threaded side, just cutting away the parts that fit under the lips of the flange way. I use these bolts with similarly threaded flange nuts and various holding bars made from key stock. They have more area to hold in the flanges, so I get a good grip without having to tighten the top nut down too hard. Tom ------- Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 11:03:16 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Re: First project with my new rotary table "I've read several statements by Joe Martin and Craig Libuse that > basically said that there is a limit to the size of operations > that can be reasonably performed on Sherline equipment. " Jerry, We have learned from experience that it is better to understate the capabilities of our machines than to overstate them. If a person's project is too big for a Sherline machine, we tell them they need a bigger tool. It saves unhappy customers later. On the other hand, modelers are the best group in the world at making whatever is needed with whatever equipment is at hand. (Anyone ever see the movie "Flight of the Phoenix"?) We have people like Jerry Kieffer and our own Pete Weiss here at the plant who delight in coming up with setups to make things on Sherline tools just for the additional challenge it offers. I have some photos on hand and was thinking of adding a page to our site called "extreme machining", showing some of these "non-recommended" setups. You can see why I might hesitate to do this, however, as many of these setups are really only safe or effective in the hands of someone who really knows what he's doing. Only someone like Jerry Kieffer would saw off a 12" piece of 3/8" oak with a slitting saw on his Sherline mill when he had a perfectly good table saw at his disposal, but I am sure he gets an extra smile every time he looks at the finished case knowing how it was made. Rather than impress people with how much equipment he has, he chooses to stress how little equipment it takes if one is determined and clever enough. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 19:51:23 -0700 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Extreme setups Craig Libuse wrote: >> To the group, By popular demand (at least two people asked), I have placed some photos on a new page that show some oversize setups on Sherline tools. One is Jerry Kieffer's oak display box (not the machine carrying box) and the other is Pete Weiss' large steam engine castings. An example of a custom oversize tooling plate is shown on the last one for Mr. Dubin and others who asked. The address is www.sherline.com/extreme.htm. Hope you like them. If anyone has any impressive setup photos to contribute, e-mail them to me offline at craigx~xxsherline.com and I will consider adding them to the page. I can see where a source of setup photos, both normal and extreme, would be very helpful to beginners. A lot can be learned from one photo. There is an elegance to a really good setup that is lost once it is broken down. Everybody gets to see the finished parts, but journey is sometimes more interesting than the destination. Next time you complete a particularly difficult setup, consider snapping a picture of it to share with the group before you break it down. --Craig Libuse, Sherline << Craig: Thanks for setting this page up. Any chance for a more detailed description (or a 'sketch') on the extended tooling plate? Does it have something underneath its furthest "end" to keep it balanced? Something along this line will certainly solve my current problem. Now, any recommendations for how to turn my 14" flywheel? Thanks again, Wm. ------- Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 09:23:31 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Extreme setups--tooling plate Mr. Dubin: The tooling plate is just two stock Sherline P/N 3560 tooling plates end-to-end. Pete had intended to make a couple of bars that link the two for additonal strength but never got around to it. Since all the machining forces are under the one plate, the other is just holding up the end of the part. In fact, it is only held to the table with two T-nuts. It worked fine. For those interested in the casting, it is from a Morrison-Martin Engine Works kit of the "Meri" engine. The bronze kit sells for about $500 I believe. Pete is documenting each of his setups with photos with the idea of doing a set of instructions on how to make this oversize engine on Sherline equipment. Might be interesting, but it's still a ways off as he has several projects going at once. --Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 03:57:11 -0000 From: n2562001x~xxyahoo.com Subject: Re: Extreme setups William: In regard to your 14" flywheel. If you have a Sherline mill turn the head 90 degrees in the horizontal position and mount the flywheel however you normally would in the lathe. You can then hold your cutting tool in the vice on the bed and use the mill as a lathe. Take very light cuts and a lot of time. Its slow but it will work if it's the only equipment you have. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 07:22:17 -0700 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Extreme setups Hi Wm: To machine your 14" flywheel on your Sherline: Bolt it to your turntable. Build a drag bracket to support it close to where the spindle nose of your mill will be. (Make the drag bracket out of Delrin or Teflon, and bolt it to the Sherline mill table.) Stuff in a cutter and have at it. You may need to make the drag bracket a bit springy so it can follow any humps in the rough part. I once machined a 48" dia pulley on a Bridgeport this way. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 15:23:04 -0700 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Extreme setups Marcus, Thank you. Please explain a "drag bracket"... thats a new term for me. If I were turning C.I. on the lathe, I'de be going very slowly, but using a milling cutter (I suppose you recommend carbide), at what app. rpm would you run this? How deep a "bite" would you take, remembering I need to get below the 'skin' on the first cut. As I wrote Jerry, the 14" was in partial jest with Craig, but I've got a lot of flywheels that are over the 6" size of my Sakai & Sherline..... so this information is really helpful. Wm. ------- Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 19:20:29 -0700 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Extreme setups Hi Wm: A drag bracket is a chunk of material that will support the casting right at the rim, very close to the cutter. All it does is stabilize the rim against vibration, so it can be very simple and crude. I will sometimes use a chunk of Teflon bolted to a block with only one screw in it so it can pivot. I bandsaw a slot in it a bit wider than the rim, and then stick a spring under one end to make it pivot and take up the slack between the sawn slot and the wheel rim. The teflon is soft enough that it will wear itself in and contact both faces of the rim, but the pivot and the spring allow it to ride over any humps in the casting. If the wheel is cast iron, you should run a 3/8 4 flute HSS cutter at about 500 rpm or thereabouts. The first cut will be hard on the cutter, so use an old one with a spoiled end. You will be dressing the periphery of the rim with the side flutes, so a cutter with the corners knocked off will work just fine. Take about a 0.030 to 0.040 cut initially if you have that much stock on the flywheel. If the casting is pretty smooth and flat, you can dress the top face with the same setup. Then flip the wheel and dress the bottom face. It's tedious, but it does work, and with really big stuff, sometimes it's the only practical way. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 00:54:19 -0000 From: frennerx~xxcolumbus.rr.com Subject: Re: Removng handwheel [SHERLINE LATHE] --- In sherlinex~xxy..., "Arnold Chord" wrote: > I am trying to remove a resetable handwheel from my lathe. > I can loosen the nut but it does not come out of the engraved ring. > It seems the hole is too small. Any suggestions? Thanks Arnold It is too small. If you want to remove the handwheel just back the set screw out until you can slide the wheel off the shaft. The set screw does not need to be removed to do this. If you want to remove the set screw or replace the engraved ring, you will need to remove the small knurled locking wheel and the screw it is on. The threads are knocked over to hold the wheel - you just need to overpower it. Once you do that you may need to run the set screw in a bit, then you can remove the ring, then the set screw. Fred ------- From: wmiller45x~xxe... Date: Thu Jul 12, 2001 1:01 pm Subject: Speaking of squareness Craig (and others); Could you recommend the proper places to shim a Sherline mill? I seem to have a forward cant to my column. I don't like the idea of putting shim stock between the steel column and it's aluminum mounting surface as I believe this reduction in contact surface would decrease vibration dampening and ridgity. Or am I wrong in this assumption? Also, on another thought; I assume that I can get better ridgity in the mill by removing the aluminum spacer behind the headstock thereby shortening the distance between the column and the cutting axis. The problem with this is reduced throat. What if I made a column mounting block that moved the column forward and up so that my vise could slide under the column, thereby giving me my throat back? Should I make that block of steel or aluminum? Bill ------- From: jguentherx~xxv... Date: Thu Jul 12, 2001 1:37 pm Subject: RE: [sherline] Speaking of squareness Bill, I had to shim my column and placed the shims between the column base and the milling machine base. I think mine was a little off before I did my CNC conversion, but after I made and installed my spacer block / Y axis stepper motor mount I needed to put about .002 between the column base and the spacer block / Y axis motor mount to get every thing straight again. My column was slightly canted forward. I don't think the spacer behind the head stock contributes much to any rigidity problems. The only real rigidity problems I have experienced are caused by trying to take deeper cuts than the machine is designed for. Last night I milled a 1 x 1.5 x .75 inch pocket in a block of 1018 steel using a .5 inch end mill with a .375 shank. This was done under CNC control, with light cuts and I completed it with no problems, it just took a while (about 80 minutes of actual machining time). The first time I tried this, manually, I got in a hurry and took some cuts that were too deep for the machine to handle using a 3/8" end mill. The result was a ruined part and some obvious flexing of the column and head mounting. I have also learned that dull end mills will try to wander all over the place and cause lots of rigidity problems only because they don't want to cut when they are dull. John Guenther ------- From: wmiller45x~xxe... Date: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:34 pm Subject: Re: Speaking of squareness Yea, that's where I figured to shim mine, but it's going to be more than an hours worth of work that's for sure. :) I started thinking about my second question (after I posted of course); This won't work as I originally thought. Guess I'll leave the spacer behind the headstock alone. Thanks, Bill ------- From: wjw2000x~xxh... Date: Thu Jul 12, 2001 4:00 pm Subject: Re: Speaking of squareness I tried the shimming bit, and came to the conclusion that the base was not flat where the column was bolted. I ended up milling a flat area there by using a Dremel mounted to a bar clamped the the table. For more on that, see this Web page: http://www.geocities.com/wjw2000athotmaildotcom/current_project.html ------- From: "Craig Libuse" Date: Wed Jul 18, 2001 2:03 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Mill tooling plate! > } Is is ground flat and paralell from the facroty or should I sqoare it > } up first? The tooling plate is made from cast aluminum plate. Cast is used as it has no internal stresses like extruded material and stays flat when holes are drilled in it. It is machined flat and parallel (not ground) at the factory and the final finish is sanded on a granite plate. As far as I know we have not had a complaint about the flatness of the plates using this process. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- From: Rich D. Date: Sunday, July 22, 2001 7:56 PM To: sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [sherline] Binding X axis!! san3x~xxsensewave.com wrote: > The first 5+ cm on my x axis binds like crazy(to the point where > altough it does alow the movement of the table all the way to the > right but the last 5-6 cm is a "whole hand" kind of undertaking) > Anny ideas to what might be causing this, and how I can fix this. > And yes before you ask, I do clean the mill and I oil it religiously > using CPL Break Free. San, Sherline last week responded to a fellow with the same problem on the Y axis. Check the old posts at the sherline-yahoogroups.com web site. Basicly, he suggested removing the handwheel (follow the directions!) and loosen the "thrust" plate that the leadscrew passes thru. There is a socket head screw under the leadscrew. Temporarilly install the handwheel and roll the table up to the plate. Now tighten the screw under the handwheel and reinstall the handwheel being careful to set it back to the original position with the setscrew in the same dimple. With any luck, the lash will be ok and the leadscrew free along the entire length. RichD ------- Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:51:29 -0000 From: buchnerbx~xxyahoo.com Subject: Riser Block for Mill I have a 5400 mill and I was wondering if there was a riser block available for the mill column. By the time you put the rotary table on the bed and a chuck in the spindle to hold a drill bit there is not much room for the part and a drill bit if you want to drill a bolt circle. If I could raise the mill column about two inches it would help a lot. I looked in the Sherline accesories and did not see one. Bruce Buchner ------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 09:32:00 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Riser Block for Mill > Yes they do...the block for the head is the same....DL The riser block for the mill and lathe are the same, but I believe the original question was on how to raise the column of the mill for greater Z-axis height. The mill riser block goes between the column saddle and the headstock to give more throat distance, but it doesn't increase the Z-axis height. It would be easy to make a spacer with two holes through it and use longer bolts to attach the column to the mill base much like we do when shortening the column in the P/N 6100 column conversion for use with the horizontal milling conversion. See www.sherline.com/6101inst.htm for a drawing. The spacer would be the same as the column cutoff when shortening the column. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 22:43:30 -0000 From: andrewwex~xxadvantagegroup.co.nz Subject: Z axis Mill SAddle Lock Upgrade (4017U) Quite a while ago I bought this upgrade (the two brass threaded bits shown on the current website) for my 5400 mill XYZ table. It fitted fine, and locks fine. I lock it by moving the lever across from left to right when viewed from the front of the mill. The instructions (which are no longer on the website) imply (at least to me) that the lock will self-disengage when I turn the Z wheel to raise the mill saddle. This seems a sensible approach to avoid digging into work under the mill. However it works the other way on mine - the lever stays locked up if I try to turn the Z wheel to raise the saddle, but self-disengages when I turn the wheel to lower the saddle. I can see mechanically how and why this happens, but 1. it seems wrong that it should work like this, 2. it seems at odds with instructions. Can someone out there set my mind at rest - I'm sure that I've installed it right. thanks & Rgds Andrew Auckland, New Zealand ------- Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 18:20:17 -0700 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: Re: Z axis Mill SAddle Lock Upgrade (4017U) I made the same upgrade, and it works as you describe. The instructions I got with the upgrade said self-disengagement occurs when the Z-axis wheel is turned to move the spindle down. This works for me because it's one less step to take for another, deeper, pass. I don't move the spindle up until I'm through with the operation, in which case I move it up and out of the way. Dave Goodfellow Northridge, CA ------- Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:22:06 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Z axis Mill SAddle Lock Upgrade (4017U) >The instructions (which are no longer on the website)... Dear Andrew and group, You are using the saddle lock correctly. Most cuts on the mill are approached by lowering the cutter into position. The lock keeps the saddle from being pushed back upwards into whatever backlash is present. The instructions are still on the web and can be found at www.sherline.com/2000upgd.htm or www.sherline/4017uins.pdf. They are linked from the accessory instructions page at www.sherline.com/accessor.htm (link in main menu on opening page) and listed under the mill accessories by part number 4017U. In almost all cases I try to name the instructions for a particular accessory by part number followed by the letters "inst" for "instructions". In this case I was posting the instructions for the 2000 mill upgrade package, which included both the column saddle lock and the travel extension. Soon after the 2000 mill first came out we realized it could not be lowered sufficiently to bring a miniature series cutter all the way down to the table, so we added the travel extension to make this possible. We sent one free of charge to all customers who had purchased 2000 mills up to that point and also included at no charge the saddle lock, which had also just been introduced on all mills. That's why the instructions are for both and are labeled with a 2000 part number. The .pdf file is labeled in a more conventional manner. Sorry for the confusion, but perhaps knowing how I name files will make it easier for you to find other instructions in the future without having to look for the link in a long list. When in doubt, first try the part number plus "/metal/inst.htm" or "/metal/inst.pdf". As a secondary note, I also have my own extension for the "shopping" page that describes a particular product and shows a color photo if we have one. Try the part number plus the letters "/metal/pg.htm". For example, if you try www.sherline.com/4017upg.htm you will get the page that describes the 4017U saddle lock and shows a picture of it. There are also links to the instructions from those pages. --Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 14:23:26 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Bill Smith and gearcutting To the group, A question was asked recently about sources of info on gearcutting. I was reminded by one of the members that I forgot to mention William R. Smith as a source for information on cutting gears, particularly as it relates to clockmaking. Bill Smith has a number of videos and books out including a tape on gear cutting (known as "wheel cutting" to clockmakers), depthing and pinion making. Information on Bill's books and videos can be found at www.sherline.com/resource.htm in the section on "Stuff for Clockmakers". My apologies to Bill (also a member of this list) for leaving you out of my response. (Bill Smith's article on making and using gravers on a Sherline T-rest can be found at www.sherline.com/gravers.htm.) As a matter of further interest, Bill Smith has recently begun using Sherline's P/N 8700 CNC rotary indexer for clockmaking tasks. I am sure you will be seeing some articles in the future on how that item can be of use to clockmakers (or anyone making gears) at less than the cost of a couple of good quality indexing plates. Watch and clock makers are a rather traditional lot when it comes to tools and techniques, so it is with great satisfaction that we see someone of the stature of Bill Smith embrace one of our new products. William R. Smith was selected by Joe Martin and the Martin Foundation for Exceptional Craftsmanship as the "Outstanding Metalworking Craftsman of the Year" in 2000. Bill's official credits include a degree in mechanical engineering as well as FBHI (Fellow, British Horological Institute), FNAWCC (Fellow, National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors), CMC (Certified Master Clockmaker) and CMW (Certified Master Watchmaker). Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 10:44:23 +1100 From: "Charlie Lear" Subject: Re: [WAS: looking for end mill holders and slotting saw arbor] [ACTUAL SUBJECT NOW IS TURNING OVERSIZED PARTS ON MILL USED AS A LATHE] Wm., I've been thinking about the issue you raised on the model engineering list regarding turning large diameters. The thing about machining larger diameter cast iron is rigidity - you need it. I initially thought about turning the lathe headstock 90 degrees, with the lathe clamped or bolted next to the edge of the bench. This would allow you to swing virtually any diameter, limited only by how far down the far end of the bed you could get the cross slide. However mounting a tool on the cross slide and running it out far enough to machine the flywheel periphery is going to seriously compromise rigidity. So I thought about it some more. If you turn the headstock of your milling machine 90 degrees, you will be able to mount a tool vertically on the mill table (preferably a 7610 carbide tool - the block is extremely rigid) either by clamping the block or by gripping it in the machine vice. Damn, you've got me interested now. I've got a gunmetal flywheel for a beam engine out in the workshop, I'll go and see if I can successfully do what I just suggested. If so I'll take some digital pics and put them online for you. Cheers Charlie Charlie Lear, Melbourne, Australia clearx~xxsteammachine.com Hutt Valley Model Engineer Soc. http://steammachine.com/hvmes Eastern Bays Little Blue Penguin Foundation: same site /penguins ------- Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 14:18:51 +1100 From: "Charlie Lear" Subject: Re: Re: looking for end mill holders and slotting saw arbor Wm. Dubin wrote: >Thats a great idea...please do follow up with how your attempt has gone. I successfully turned the periphery of an 8-1/2" diameter gunmetal flywheel casting, and trued up a 10-1/4" diameter diecast centrifugal fan impeller. ON A TOTALLY UNMODIFIED SHERLINE MACHINE. Yahoo! Kahlay! IT BLOODY WELL WORKS!!!! To learn how I used a standard Sherline milling machine to turn an 8-1/2" diameter flywheel rim and to true up a 10-1/4" diameter fan impeller, check out: http://steammachine.com/millturn Cheers (bloody loud ones) Charlie ------- Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 07:17:27 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: When Push Comes To Shove Charlie, That's fantastic!!!!!!Wonderful!!!!!THANK YOU!!!!!! To make things even easier, I have the Sherline Horizontal Mill, which has given me a great deal of studio flexiability, as there are times my verticle is tied up with a long-term fluting job. So, it should be no problem to use the Horizontal... and, as it's already set-up and accurate, it should be a straight ahead exercise. Some additional questions: How would you deal with milling and accurately drilling/boring/reaming the hub? When I've done flywheels on the lathe, I use a combination of the inside rim and the hub to locate a potential center, then turn both the outside and the hub plus the rim at this setting. Then drill/bore the center hole, reverse it in the chuck and do the back side. And..... where did you get that nice flywheel casting? Wm. ------- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:52:12 -0000 From: "terry6453" Subject: Re: Newbie to Machining and the Group Hi Darren, I am a newbie too :-)) I looked at a lot of small machines and noted that many of the Harbor Freight and Grizzly machines arrived damaged. My Sherline machine came very well packaged and undamaged just like they really read UPS's packing instructions :-)) All the smaller parts were packed in nice individual boxes and the larger parts were packed in a nice wood crate structure. I have been real busy making parts this weekend so I have not reported back, but the machine does a perfect job. If I really try, I can get dimensions within a few mil and with a single mil when needed. All my "first time" parts turned out great!! I am extremely pleased with the mill and it is everything I could have hoped for. I really liked the vast variety of parts and added toys that are easily available. I just ordered up that 4-inch rotary table and a 2.5-inch chuck along with some other stuff. I have found that a few gauge blocks and that Starrett "last word" gage are real helpful too if not cheap. I figured the cost of the mill was not that great compared to the "extras" I would need but the "package deal" on the 5400 is a very good buy. I have used almost all that extra stuff with pleasure. I ran gages along most of the critical surfaces and they were perfect. No problem at all with the machine's inherent tolerances. So I'll be a bit of a "bad boy" and mention three defects =:-O 1. The 1/4-inch draw bolts seem to be typical cheap machine hardware and the chrome plating is not well done. I had to run them through a die to true up the treads and lube them before they would mate easily with the drill chuck and fly cutter. The chrome plating did not help the tolerance there at all. I would suggest some serious vendor inspection on these common hardware bolts. The larger collet draw bolt was better but not real perfect either. 2. The 1/4 inch collet's threads for the draw bolt were poor. I think the tap used to make it was broken. I tried to rethread it with a tap but the metal was too hard and I just killed it worse. The other collets were fine. 3. The zero handwheel gauges had no lubrication. They were just bare aluminum against bare aluminum. They either rattled around or dug in. I pulled them apart and stuffed some thick silicon grease in them to give them a smooth feel. Since everything else was well lubed, I think the zero handwheel gages could be greased up too. They would wear very fast without any lube at all but maybe some people like the "dry" feel... Otherwise the thing was fine. I readjusted all the gibes and lubed them to my liking but that was just me. The motor, belt, controller assembly required a little thought to assemble but I figured it out. So I would suggest inspecting the draw bolt threads for tolerance and lubing the zero handwheel gages as a quality improvement. Then it will all be perfect. :-)) I was able to start using the machine for "real work" right away and I was 100% successful. I have usually been the guy (other colorful references to me in this case will be forgotten :-))) standing behind the poor machinist saying things like "make that thingamajig just right cause I am watching you"... But I actually was able to do it all myself for once :-))) The 3020 T-driver is a must have in that it fits the common bolts (usually) and makes a nice draw bolt hammer too. A ball end on that hex tool may be a future improvement to allow off angle uses but such ends need to be very high precision (get them from the Allen company. I got some for my robot and Allen's tolerance was off only 0.2 mil from ideal :-))). I also ordered up a combination wrench (1/2 and 7/16 if I remember right) from MSC to cover the draw bolts. Cheers, Terry ------- Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 08:22:37 -0800 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Newbie to Machining and the Group Terry: You might find a set of the cheap Taiwanese nutdrivers handy as well. I use them to open and close the drawbolts. You're able to apply enough torque to hold the part in the headstock securely, but not too much so that you start ruining the machine. And, for that job, you don't need the quality that a good brand such as Xcelite provides. As far as your collet with the bad threads, you should have called Sherline. One "accessory" that their catalog does not call out is the excellent service that they provide. They must have used ShopSmith as a model! -- Carol & Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:19:58 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: milling question From: "Wm. Dubin" > I need to mill some 3/8" thick cold rolled steel. Basically working the > edge to get it to the correct size, and finish. I've never worked steel > this thick before, so thought I'd ask before I ruin something. > I can mill both horizontally or vertically. My feeling is that I would > do best using a > 3/8" 2 flute mill cutter in the horizontal position, taking advantage of > its side surface rather than a multi-cut with its tip. > Does that sound correct, or has anyone a different opinion? > With the horizontal position, would you feed the work into the cutter in > the same direction it is turning, or against it? > Finally, what RPM would be advised... I will be taking VERY small bites, > but the length of the cut is about 3". Thanks in advance. Wm. Dubin Hi Wm: Is this the edge of a 3/8" thick plate? If so, how big is the plate? The reason I ask is that one of the best ways to machine plate edges is to flycut them, but you can only do that if the plate is small enough to be clamped standing up under the cutter. The Sherline horizontal milling option works really well for this kind of application, because you can clamp the plate directly to the table with one edge hanging over, and the cutter oriented to advance into the plate on its downward side. The reason I'm going on at length about this, is that on a teeny mill like the Sherline or the Taig, side milling has some risks. These mills are not too rigid, and side milling generates much larger forces than flycutting. These forces tend to make the cutter try to grab the work, especially if they are fed into the work in the wrong direction relative to the direction the cutter is rotating. So, if you can, endmilling or flycutting is better. If you can't then you have to side mill it. The cutter should not be "climb cutting" on such a small machine. To determine whether it is or not, visualize the cutter with the work going past it from a top view. The cutter should be starting its cut by making a chip that progressively INCREASES in thickness as the cutter rotates and the material is pushed past it. If the chip starts out at maximum thickness and reduces in thickness as the cutter rotation and stock feed progresses, you are climb cutting. This is bad! Another way to look at it is to think of the cut as if it were a ditch laid over on its side. If you dig the ditch by positioning the backhoe ahead of the ditch and starting your bite at the bottom of the completed part of the ditch, then lifting the filled bucket out of the ditch toward you, you are "conventional" milling which is what you should be doing. If you dig by dropping a backhoe bucket into the dirt ahead of the completed part of the ditch, and finishing the digging stroke at the bottom of the ditch, you are "climb" milling. That's bad! Regarding feeds and speeds: these will depend on the cutter diameter you choose, and the material the cutter is made of. Use HSS (with 5% cobalt if you can get it). Bigger is better within reason. The biggest you can conveniently use on a Sherline is 3/8" dia. Get 4 flute center cutting endmills of a good grade (Niagara are good, so are DoAll: most Polish and all Chinese or Pakistani cutters are crap). Start it off slow and run the speed up to where you cannot see the individual flutes anymore; that should be just about right. Drop a couple of drops of Rapidtap onto the cutter every half inch of cut or so and feed at about a rate that gets you across your 3" long cut in about 45 seconds or so. You should be able to take a cut of 0.015 to 0.020 in 3/8" thick stock on a Sherline with no problem. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:43:22 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Statman" Subject: Re: Re: How hot does your motor run? From: "dean83530" > Ken; > The motor on your lathe or mill is protected against overheating. How > hot is too hot is a good question, but since it will shut down before > burnout you probably don't need to worry. > While turning a crankcase for a small gas engine I built, the motor on > my lathe got very hot. Didn't want to hold my hand on it for very > long. I had been turning for about an hour and a half taking heavy > cuts when it decided it needed a rest. I turned off the switch and > did something else for a few minutes. When I came back it was ready > to go at it again. That's the only time it has ever happened in three > years. Dean W > --- In sherlinex~xxy..., "mszollar" wrote: > > I measured the surface temperature of the Sherline motor, running on > > a mill and it reads 145 degrees F. The motor is not shutting down > > or acting strange; I was just curious if this is the normal > > operating temperature. Ken I often over heat my lathe motor while trying to drill 3/8" through holes in solid bar stock titanium. I use smaller drill sizes before I get to the 3/8" drill. The motor will simply shut off when it gets too hot. The only warning that I have is when the motor cools back down (10-20 seconds later) it will turn itself back on unless you manually flip the switch to the off position after the temperature induced shut off. If it is a hole that I need to drill and cannot wait for the motor to cool down sufficiently I have caused an overheat shut off probably 25 consecutive times in one sitting. Can't be good for the motor, but I see no ill effects. If it breaks, I will buy another one and continue to work it just as hard. When surface engraving with my CNC mill it can run at very high speeds (10,200 RPM) for several hours at a time. Since the cuts are light the motor is not being stressed too much, but the headstock bearings sure do get hot. No way you could hold your hand on the headstock body for more than a couple of seconds. I have even backed the preload nut off about 1/4-1/2 turn (as per the instructions on the high speed pulley kit) and it still gets that hot. The GREAT thing about Sherline tools is that they sell each individual replacement part, and they are all generally in stock for overnight delivery. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 02:56:38 -0000 From: "ricklinstad" Subject: slipping mill vise Greetings all, I am having trouble cutting an rabbet on the end of a 3" piece of 6061 bar stock. After a series of passes I noticed that the mill vise had slipped slightly. I have read several warnings about not tightening the the T-nuts too tight so I am very careful here. I have not had any previous problems with it slipping, but this is the first time I have milled such a large piece. Here are the specifics. I have set a 3/8" endmill to a depth of .2" of and inch and have made a series of about .01" passes. After about the 6th or 7th I noticed that the vise had slipped. Am I taking too big a bit or is there a better way of holding the stock? Thanks for any help you can give me. Rick ------- Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 03:37:19 -0000 From: "kentfreeman" Subject: Re: slipping mill vise I use four screws to hold my vise down. When I was using two I had a problem with the vise moving. ------- Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 02:21:08 -0000 From: "santorelli333" Subject: Re: slipping mill vise Do you have the rotating vise base??? It should take care of any problems you have(an as an added bonus it makes aligning the vice-jaws to paralell with the x-axis a lot easier) Or you could use a alu-plate(mill-tooling plate?) with a piece of alu- bar permanently screwed to the plate and milled flat on one side so that one side(fixed-jaw side) of the wise rests agins it then drill holes for the vice-clamp screws in the plate( one for the remaining shortside of the vice and 1-2 for the long sides) Should also make aligning the vise a cinch.......:) San ------- Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 10:01:31 -0500 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: Slipping Vise One trick that works well when holding two metal surfaces together, like the vise on the table, or when holding a workpiece to the table, is to place a single thickness of brown paper bag between the surfaces. This adds considerable friction and stops the sliding, and the paper is uniform enough in thickness to not upset the alignment. I use this both on my Sherline and on my bigger mills. ron ginger ------- Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 14:10:39 -0500 From: Ty Hoeffer Subject: Re: brass collar on mill feed screw John Liestman wrote: >I feel so stupid asking this: On my Sherline mill, there is a little brass >collar with a gear-like edge that sit on the feed screw. What is this, what >is its purpose, is it supposed to just spin freely along the screw. John, That is the backlash adjust nut or just "backlash nut" it should be held in position by either another collar ( held by a screw ) with mating grooves or a little tear drop shaped piece of metal that the pointed end sits in the groove to prevent rotation also held by a screw. Ty ------- Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 14:39:26 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: brass collar on mill feed screw On my Sherline mill, there is a little brass > collar with a gear-like edge that sit on the feed screw. What is this, > what is its purpose, is it supposed to just spin freely along the screw. John, (As a note to John and others looking for a way to figure out how old a used Sherline machine might be, there is a web page that covers the production changes from year to year that will help date it. See www.sherline.com/usedmach.htm.) The gear-like collar you mention is the anti-backlash nut. If you have a current instruction manual, there is an illustration on page 11 that shows a cross-section of how the backlash lock on the Y-axis leadscrew works. If you have an older machine, instead of the "star gear" that functions to keep the backlash nut from turning we used to use a small pointer that did the same thing. If you have a used mill and it didn't come with a lock for the backlash nut, call me at (800) 541-0735 or e-mail me at craigx~xxsherline.com and we'll get you the right part to fix it. The two locking systems are not interchangeable because the distance between the leadscrew hole and the locking screw hole is different for each system. Measure the distance between the centerline of the leadscrew and the centerline of the hole to the left of it in the saddle before you call. If you don't have an instruction manual, we'll see that you get one of those too. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:26:34 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Locking Mill Slides From: Bruce Buchner >>>I have a 5400 mill and I am having trouble locking down the Y axis. The X axis has a nice cap screw you can tighten with an allen wrench. all I see on the Y axis is a small screw with a thumb wheel. when I tighten it the axis still moves when I use the mill. I am afraid to over tighten it because it is so thin that I am afraid I will break it. Am I doing something wrong here? Bruce Buchner <<< Dear Bruce, Tightening the Y-axis lock thumbscrew pushes a tapered piece of teflon against the plastic gib which wedges it against the side of the dovetail. While better than nothing, this is admittedly not as positive as the X-axis barrel lock. Anyone with a better suggestion is welcome to send it in for consideration. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:43:17 -0600 From: "Sedota, Kevin" Subject: RE: Locking Mill Slides Could this be done with a sort of cam lock. (I'm not sure that's the proper name) You'd have a pin where the current screw is that has the outside threaded. You place a nut on the threaded piece. This will allow you to increase or decrease the preasure as needed. You then place a mount on the side of the slide next to the pin. In the mount you have a little handle that has the cam. When you pull it out a piece comes out and presses down on the exposed part of the pin. I probably haven't explaned it that well but if you look at the thing on the end of a good bicycle pump (the ones that snap on not the ones the screw on) You can see what I mean about a cam. ------- Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:26:58 -0800 From: "Wm. Dubin" Subject: Re: Locking Mill Slides Craig: What is the thread on that thumb screw? I'm thinking of replacing it with a cap-head, and using an Allen wrench to tighten it, as this would give way more force against the gib. As to suggestions, why not have the classic gib, but use 2 or 3 of these cap-headed screws in place of the one thumb screw? (Of course this means some re-tooling, but this is something I've had problems with and would love to have a better solution to). Wm. ------- Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:37:30 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Locking Mill Slides Dear Mr. Dubin and group, Larry Mortimer has made a number of good suggestions for accessories and "fixes" over the years. He suggests making an aluminum plate about .75" wide by .95" tall iwth a hole on center. It should have a small ridge about .030 high across the bottom that presses on the mill base itself. When tightening the thumbscrew (or a socket head screw), now instead of pulling the far side of the saddle against the dovetail, you create a friction lock against the side of the bed. I will be putting a drawing of his part on the "tips" page as soon as I get a chance. By the way, as mentioned above, tightening the thumbscrew against the gib actually has the effect of pulling the entire saddle against the bed, which exerts pressure on the dovetail on the opposite side. Because this is a lubricated and angled surface, it doesn't lock very well. Having friction between two square "dry" surfaces will work better. Joe had looked at this solution a while back, but was a little unhappy with the way the lock plate could rotate when loose. The angle of the base helps keep it parallel, but he was still looking for a more elegant solution. The advantage of this one is that it only requires one simple part and no new holes. By the way, the thumbscrew hole is 10-32. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 12:07:03 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: cutting rounded corners kevin_sedota wrote: > The subject line states the problem. I have a 3 1/2 sqare plate that > I want to cut rounded edges. I can figure out the math to offset the > slide for a given endmill on a rotary table but I can not figure out > how to mount the work piece accuretly enough to cut the corners > cleanly. Since the center of the spindle has to exactly match the > center of the rotary table (before making the calculated offset) the > center or the circle that defines the curve of the cut has to exacly > match the same axis. However, I can't figure out how to do this. > I've tried scribing the plate and then putting a dead center in the > spindle and lining up the scribe marks with the point of the center > but I never comes out exactly. One edge is either to deep and you get > a cut that puts a sort of a dip in the edge or it is to shallow and > you don't get a nice rounded corner. > Any suggestions would be appreciated. Sorry, no CNC. thanks kjs Hi Kevin: Yeah, CNC would have been my first suggestion! Are you confident that you can center the rotary table below the spindle? You might try using a "wiggler" to do this first. A concentric threaded plug with a crosshair will allow you to do this (how are others doing it?). Then, from your scribed lines, and using the wiggler again, align the stock in X and Y axis FIRST, then center the spindle on the arc center. Alan KM6VV P.S. A concentric threaded plug with a 1/4" shank might be useful for initial setups. A collet would hold the shank, 'till you tighten down the rotary table. P.P.S. If you have many to make, then a "fixture" of two small strips to align with the edges of the stock might help. You'd just slide up the stock, and clamp it. Could also use a piece with a notch cut out to fix the alignment. ------- Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 22:18:59 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: cuttiing rounded corners Kevin: You did not say how much of a radius you were cutting, however for under half inch I have always used corner rounding end mills. You can take a light first and second cut and adjust the center as needed. Even if you had to purchase one they come in handy for all sorts of things. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 22:18:29 -0000 From: "Ted Walls" Subject: Re: Mill Tooling Plate hole pattern I wouldn't put a hole pattern in the plate. I have a number of 0.375" thick ground aluminium plates, of various sizes,mostly with lots of holes in. I consider these plates to be expendable (when you have filled them with holes). Just put the holes in as the jobs arise. I have one plate with two 0.25" wide, 0.125" deep slots at 90 degrees, and 8 holes to locate and secure the vice. The plate fits flush with the front of the table and level with one end. The slots are arranged so that with a piece of .25" square steel fitted into one slot the vice can be located central to the table in X or Y. Using a piece of .25" square steel in this way lets you set the vice square or parallel to the table and helps stop the vice from moving when cutting. Hope this is helpful! -------- Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 16:31:44 -0800 From: "Brad Butler" Subject: Re: Boreing Head Alignment - Mill From: joeb759x~xxaol.com >>>I tried my hand at first time using the mill boring head. It worked fine except that the . 375 hole in 6061 alum. is +. 002 out of round. My vise was squared and the work piece was square with the vise. I was taking shallow cuts after drilling the initial work hole. The finished hole measures . 375 across one way and . 377 the other. The cutter was lined up 90 degree facing outside . What am I missing here? Any constructive comments would be appreciated. Thanking you in advance, Joe <<< Not knowing exactly what your setup is I will ask a question. Did you measure the hole before or after you removed it from the vice. If you measured it after then it is quite possible that you were clamped hard enough onto the part to distort it. In this case the hole would have been concentric in the vice but when you removed it the pressure on the part went away and the hole went out of round. Even if your mill head was totally crooked the hole would still be concentric if you weren't clamping too hard on the part. Brad. ------- Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 22:07:45 -0500 From: Thomas Gilmour Subject: Re: Boreing Head Alignment - Mill This might be due to a slight deflection of the table in X or Y, especially Y as I've found that the slide lock doesn't hold very well. Or perhaps it's due to the column flexing. Tom ------- Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 04:03:55 -0000 From: "terry6453" Subject: Re: Boreing Head Alignment - Mill Hi Joe, I just got the boring head too but my holes seem perfectly round. I would grab the work and the boring bar and try to shake or wiggle them to be sure nothing is loose. If the speed was high, it may have been turning in an oval since the head is not perfectly balanced but it actually should still turn in a circle regardless unless it was vibrating. Maybe slower speed would help. I think the other person's idea about the vise distorting it is a very good possibility. You may try remeasuring it several times too since inside holes are harder to measure. BTW - I had to square up the end of the dial adjuster screw on the boring tool for the adjuster to work properly. The screw tip came with a slight angle so the dial was not accurate. A bit of simple careful filing restored it to perfect working order. Hope this is of some help to you. Cheers, Terry ------- Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 23:23:24 -0500 From: "Jeff Bissonnette" Subject: Re: Boreing Head Alignment - Mill Joe: Sounds like your milling column could a little out of perpendicularity with your table or the part may not have been level in the vise or on the table... If you cut a cylinder with a plane that is not perpendicular to that cylinder's axis, you end up with an oval. In your case, with your bore being 0.002" out of round, it would be a very minor misalignment, or out of level condition. Jeff ------- From: "Marcus & Eva" Date: Sun Jan 13, 2002 7:18 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Boreing Head Alignment - Mill Hi Wm: The last cut should be a fine one. You are quite correct there; the question is how fine? You need to determine this with experience. I find that on a light machine like a Sherline, a last cut of 0.002" or so is fine in many materials. You will also notice that some materials will tend to pick up a chip and weld it to the face of the tool, even with lubricant. Sometimes this problem is worse with fine cuts. P20 mold steel is particularly bad for this. So is 4140 and mild steel. With a 0.010" deep cut and a carbide tool I can get a beautiful finish. The same tool with a 0.001" cut leaves a pig's breakfast!! Many larger machines have a quill, that is reasonably evenly supported in a honed housing, and the push is relatively close to the centerline of the spindle axis. A Bridgeport is a good example. These kinds of machines are somewhat less sensitive to the direction of the cut, but if you watch their action closely, you will still see this effect. Another thing you need to watch is the speed at which you run the boring head. You need speed for carbide, but the head is often so eccentric, that it will rattle the machine to pieces. I don't use a conventional boring head anymore because of this problem. For 90% of my boring, I use a plain boring bar made out of an ejector pin cutoff, and just offset the toolbit by pushing it out and controlling the amount with a dial indicator against the tip of the tool. The toolbit mass is so low, that I can run the tool at much higher speed without problems. With practice, you can bore to within 0.0005" consistently. The other BIG thing you can do to improve your success, is to get the tip of the tool as close to the front spindle bearing as you possibly can. This is a basic rule for all machining operations, and it sometimes really roasts my turkey to see photos of some "expert's" setup where he's got the cutter hanging out a mile on a flimsy little mill-drill. This is another reason why beginners often have a really hard time working accurately. Going back to the boring head, you can see why I don't like them much. Cheers Marcus ------- From: "Craig Libuse" Date: Tue Jan 15, 2002 12:54 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Sherline DRO > Does anyone know the the screw size that goes into the end of the Z > axis leadscrew? Kent, The hole is tapped 5-40. There are two different screws depending on whether you have the standard handwheel or the adjustable zero handwheel. The standard handwheel uses a #6 flat washer (P/N 45012) and a button head 5-40 x 3/8 button head cap screw (P/N 45014). Because that would interfere with the locking ring of the adjustable handwheel, on that application we use a countersunk 5-40 x 3/8 flat head socket screw (P/N 45013). If you tell me which you need I will be glad to send the proper screw to you at no charge with our apologies for leaving it out. This is a relatively new upgrade to keep the Z-axis handwheel set screw from having to support the weight of the motor/ speed control unit. It helps keep the column from "settling" during use. The instruction manual exploded view will reflect the change the next time it is printed. Owners of existing machines not fitted with this modification can fit new leadscrews and handwheels or drill and tap their existing ones to match the new design. You can find out more about the change at www.sherline.com/Zaxisfix.pdf. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 14:53:13 -0800 From: Randy Gordon-Gilmore Subject: Re: Milling Collet 2/8/2002, kentfreeman wrote: >Does anyone know if the Sherline Milling Collet can hold a double >ended end mill? I used a double-ended 3/16"-shank endmill last week. I made sure there was enough room ahead of the drawbar nose before I finally tightened it. Best regards, Randy ------- Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 16:47:47 -0800 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Milling Collet > Does anyone know if the Sherline Milling Collet can hold a double > ended end mill? Kent, While a double ended end mill can be held in a collet, it is a better idea to use an end mill holder to hold them. Tightening the collet on the sharp teeth of the cutter is not good for the inner surface. Also, you must be sure you don't seat the collet deep enough so that the end of the drawbolt hits it. Sherline makes end mill holders in a number of sizes from 1/8 up to 3/8". The hole and thread are cut on a CNC machine in one setup, so they are quite concentric. The set screw tightens on the flat in the center of double ended end mills, so they are held quite securely. The holder just threads onto the external spindle thread, so they are quick to install. The $30 price may seem a little steep, but they are hard to make and must be done very accurately or they are worthless. The ease of use makes them worthwhile, but one of the main advantages is that it allows you to hold 3/8" end mills. Because these end mills are used in great quantity in industry, they are cheaper than the miniature single ended end mills, making them a much better buy. Money invested in the holder will be rapidly repaid in savings on the end mills. Also, a larger variety of cutter shapes can be easily found in the 3/8" shank size. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2002 19:14:16 -0600 From: "Bad Brad" Subject: Re: Milling Collet Kent, Double ended milling bits can be used. By boring out the draw-bolt, limited on size of course, the proper purchase can be made on the mill bit's shank. If you don't like the idea of boring your stock draw bolt you can pick up one to modify at your local hardware store. I have mine modified and have had good luck for the past 7 years of use. Forrest ------- Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:34:04 -0000 From: "mszollar" Subject: what (alignment) is close enough THe more I use my Sherline the more I learn. This week is about tramming the headstock (boy is that someting of a chore!). What I noticed is that for/aft movment of the Z axis appears to be about +/- .0025 (that is the amount I can get a indicator to deflect with all screws tight by pressing on the Z's CNC motor mount). I undertook this task after noticing ridges in my face mill operations. So the $M question; how close is close enough and are there any shortcuts or helpful hints? Since everything about the headstock is connected you can't adjust 1 without affecting the other. Sure I can spend an hour or 2 getting it correct but if there is a shortcut or helpful hints to make the job easier I'd be interestied in hearing them. I have a 5400 mill (I can't even imagine what it takes to true the 8 axis). Thanks, Ken ------- Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 08:04:56 -0600 From: "Brad Butler" Subject: Re: what (alignment) is close enough Ken, How much is close enough. Well that is an impossible question to answer because it all depends on what you are building. For me I strive to get my mill head square within about .0005 in all directions. Now what does that mean? I use an indicol indicator holder attached to the spindle and rotate it around in a circle to check the squareness of the mill head. So over the Y width of the mill bed the head is square within .0005 in. With the standard milling column this is a time consuming task as it is purely trial and error. All you can do is to add shims under the milling column to correct the misalignment. I have spent so much time on mine that I modified it to look somewhat like a 8 direction unit to make it easier to adjust. Believe it or not a 8 direction model is quite easy to square up once you get the hang of it. Besides being smaller it is done exactly like a full size mill. Sorry though, there is no real shortcut but it is a adjustment worth making. Brad Butler ------- Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 05:38:32 -0000 From: "lbranhamca" Subject: Boring on the Sherline mill I've noticed that most of the steam engine construction series have holes (typically cylinder bores) bored out on the lathe, and in some cases much smaller holes as well (journal boxes). This requires using the four jaw chuck and a wiggler to get everything aligned. Is there some reason this type of boring isn't done on the mill? Is it less accurate to use an edge finder (assuming we have a decent reference edge) and use the hand wheels to locate the hole accurately? If the mill is less accurate why bother with a boring head accessory for the mill? Any comments would be much appreciated. ------- Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 08:08:51 -0800 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: Re: Boring on the Sherline mill I personally use the lathe to bore cylinders because that's what I'm used to. I had the lathe long before I had a mill, so when I started in on steam engines that was "the only game in town." My next engine will have four holes in one block (2 for pistons, 2 for valves) and I'm going to do that on the mill -- simply for my own education. I anticipate easier positioning of the holes with the mill than by positioning with a 4-jaw on a lathe. I suspect the reason steam engine construction series push lathe boring is that when readers have only one machine, usually that machine is a lathe. Dave Goodfellow Northridge, CA ------- Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:07:09 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Boring on the Sherline mill Hi Ibranhamca: Boring on the mill has the advantage that locating the hole position is much easier than on the lathe, and that holes can be positioned anywhere on the block without regard to the consequences of swinging the whole block around the hole axis. Boring on the lathe makes it easier to get the hole to an accurate diameter, and also allows you to make tapered and profiled holes. It's also a bit easier to get a good finish on the lathe. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 00:53:34 -0000 From: "timxdunn" Subject: Fly Cutting I have just joined this group, having received my Sherline lathe and mill a couple of weeks ago. As you will see, I have no experience in using machine tools. I have about 50,000 questions but I'll just ask a couple this time. The Tabletop Machining book by Joe Martin gives pretty good instructions on how to squre up a block. I figured that this would be a good exercise to start with. Anyway, to cut a very long story long, when I am flycutting I notice two problems. First, when setting up the mill the spindle is never perpendicular to the table. I adjust it each time using a dial indicator, but I am concerned that I am able to make the adjustments by hand. I imagine that taking the chuck out of the spindle and putting the flycutter in will mess up the alignment. How do I get the spindle to stay where I put it? The key is in the keyway and the locking screw is a tight as I dare make it. The second problem, possibly related to the first, is that I can always see a line marking the boundary between where one flycutting pass was and the next. I can also feel the line as a little step with my fingers. I ought to point out that I am having a ball, I wish I'd started this years ago! Any help that anyone can offer to a novice will be greatly appreciated. -Tim ------- Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2002 23:15:20 -0600 From: "Matt Pierce" Subject: Re: Fly Cutting Tim, I'm probably about as new at this as you are (my mill is still in the mail), but I have done fly-cutting on full size mills, you can reduce the "lines" with a finer table feed or higher spindle RPM. I like the fly-cutter to drag a little bit on the back side as it goes over the work piece, I like the finish it leaves (also holds oil well to prevent rust). If you are using a HSS cutter in your fly-cutter be sure it has a good radius ground into the HSS tool. Matt Pierce ------- Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 01:12:06 -0000 From: "SiKn1Gh7" Subject: Re: Fly Cutting Congrats on your purchase! I am a mentor to about 20 awesome high school students, and I use a sherline 5400 mill and the long lathe to teach my kids how to machine. (We just placed 8th in the Pacific Northwest regionals this afternoon, so thank you Sherline for sponsoring us - http://swat.ee.washington.edu). I usually start them on the lathe first, teaching them how to turn and face aluminium, then follow by basic mill work. The reason why I start them on a lathe first is it gives them a good feel of what a "proper" cut on metal is supposed to be like - the chips cut continuously, peeling off into long, beautiful strands. One big prerequesite to doing this is to have proper feed rates and feed techniques. The feed rate depends on the cutting tool you're using, the depth of the cut, along with the material you're cutting. As for feed techniques - the 2- handed technique that's described in the book somewhere is what you should aim for - basically turn the wheel like a steering wheel, smooth feed motions (instead of using the hand cranks). It sounds like that your flycutter isn't true to the workpiece. This is directly related to your first problem - if you were to imagine the cutting point tracing a circle you want that circle to be in a plane parallel to the mill table. The feedrate might also play a factor. Are you using the 2000 model mill? Terence ------- Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 13:57:06 -0700 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: Re: Frustrating Mill Problem I had a Sherline mill whose z axis would "hang up." You could dial it down to proper depth, but the spindle weight was not sufficient to overcome backlash; the spindle would hold at the top of the mesh between leadscrew and halfnut. Then it would work down gradually during the cut. I could bring it down to proper depth and then push down on the spindle; an audible click would result as the spindle took the final plunge to depth. The solution was to slightly LOOSEN the adjustment so that the spindle's weight was sufficient to make it settle. Dave Goodfellow Northridge, CA ------- Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 12:37:04 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: New Mill, Loose Headstock > Pardon me if this has already been covered but I have looked in the > archives, the Sherline manuals, and the online Sherline documents > without finding any reference to this. > I just got a new ultimate shop package yesterday. I haven't yet had > the time to unpack the lathe. I was working on setting up the mill > last night and everything looks good so far save for one thing. If I > attach the headstock directly to the vertical column, it draws up nice > and tight. The headstock spacer however has a few thousandths of play > when fully "tightened". I suppose I could shim it but it doesn't seem > like this should be necessary. I can't see that the design allows for > any adjustment, did I get a bad part or is this common? Thanks, Ken Dear Ken, Try the precision ground key from the headstock in the spacer block. If it removes the play, you may have an alignment key that is ground too thin. If it doesn't make any difference, the slot in the spacer block may be too wide. In either case, it would be covered by warranty. Also note that the mounting pins in both the saddle and the spacer block are supposed to beslightly loose. This allows them to self-adjust as to position as they are pulled upward when the pointed set screw is tightened into the tapered groove in the side of the pin. This pulls the headstock down into position as the screw is tightened and allows the keyway to do the alignment rather than the pin. If you have further questions, feel free to call Sherline at (800) 541-0735 for advice. Sincerely Yours, Craig Libuse Sherline ------- Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 17:46:52 -0000 From: "hctuhlk" Subject: Re: New Mill, Loose Headstock Craig: Thanks for the reply. The problem isn't the key and the attachment pins are both slightly loose. I guess I wasn't clear enough but if I put the spacer on the saddle and tighten the attachment screw nice and snug, the spacer wobbles from side to side. I can see daylight (but not much) between the spacer and the surface of the saddle that it is supposed to pull "down" against. I have spoken with customer service at your 800 number. I forget the woman's name but she told me that there have been problems with the screws that hold the spacer's attachment pin in place (the pin that the headstock grabs when you attach it to the spacer). Some were made with heads that were too thick, causing the screwhead to be trapped between the spacer and the saddle's pin before the spacer draws down against the saddle. She was going to talk to an assembly expert about this and then send me out either a new screw or a whole new spacer assembly depending on his/her advice. For the time being I am waiting for this to arrive. There is no rush on this end. I suppose I could check this theory out by removing the spacer's pin leaving just the screw in the spacer. Then when I tighten down the spacer the screw should be held firmly if the saddle pin is bottoming out against it. I have tried this experiment with the pin in place and there is play in the pin but it could just be the play of the pin on the screw threads, I suppose. What the heck, I will experiment with the keys too, I don't think the keys are the problem but it won't take much effort to test this out. Ken ------- Date: Fri, 03 May 2002 22:02:35 -0000 From: "hctuhlk" Subject: Re: New Mill, Loose Headstock Craig: Got the new spacer yesterday and it works perfectly. The new one doesn't have the lip in the attachment hole like the old one did. Most likely that was the problem. You can judge for yourself in a few days, the old one went back to you Priority Mail an hour ago. Thanks for the excellent service! Ken ------- Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 14:33:27 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Table looseness on the mill [sherline] > I've been having an problem with the Y axis on my mill. I can grab > the bed with my hand and jiggle it back and forth quite a distance. I > haven't measured it but it might be a few hundreths. This causes a > problem when taking a climbing cut because the endmill pulls it one > direction and the preasure on the handwheel pulls it in the other > direction. This is not condusive for a clean, smooth cut. > > I don't use climbing cuts as a rule but when cutting a slot that I > can't do with a single pass I'll cut a slot and then make several > passes with a regular cut until the slot is the required size. When I > re-position the table for the next pass I'd like to be able simply > use the Y axis without having to adjust the X axis to move the > endmill away from the work piece. This results in a very light > climbing cut and hence the problem. > > Is there some way to adjust this looseness out of the table or is > this normal? I'm not sure if it's backlash. Am I missing something? Dear Kevin, If the table is moving side-to-side, you probably need to adjust the gib a little tighter. See your instruction manual on page 11 for a photo and description. The gibs are simply plastic "wedges" that take out side play on all the dovetails. Each is adjusted in a similar manner. You loosen the set screw holding the wire gib lock, push the gib a little tighter into the space between the saddle and table or saddle and base and retighten the set screw. If you get it too tight, just pull it out and try again with a little less pressure. If the table is moving end-to-end, the backlash needs to be adjusted. It is also covered on page 11. Craig Libuse Sherline ------- Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 04:47:11 -0000 From: "timxdunn" Subject: Mill Problem Folks, I'm having some difficulty getting the spindle assembly to stay in one place on my 5400 mill. Although there is a metal key designed to lock the angle at 0 or 90 degrees I have discovered that this key still allows some rotation. In an effort to get the spidle axis aligned exactly vertical I put my dial indicator into the tool holder and 'swept' the mill. This procedure showed that there was about a .002 difference during a half turn of the spindle. I was able to adjust that to zero, but having done that I found out that, no matter how tight I fasten the locking screw, I am still able to rotate the spindle assembly with only moderate hand pressure. I tried cleaning up the surfaces of the mill and the spindle assembly, and I tried swapping the spindle assembly for that of my 4400 lathe. Neither made any difference. Is this normal? Is there anything that I can do to lock these two pieces together better? Any advice will be greatly appreciated. -Tim -------- Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 00:37:43 -0500 From: Ken Grunke Subject: Re: Mill problem I'm replying not to directly solve Tim's problem (and others, as well) but to make a suggestion to Sherline for a possible solution. A square key, no matter how precision ground, is bound to sooner or later have some play in keyways milled in aluminum. Many of us switch between vertical and horizontal configuration on the mill several times during the lifetime of the mill, and the keyway can become worn to the point of uselessness. My suggestion is to change over to a tapered key. Of course, a tapered key of square section would be out of the question, and not practical for production. But a round tapered keypin and keyway would allow for wear, it would only have to go a little deeper as wear progresses. The keyway can be cut with a taperpin reamer, after drilling a pilot hole centered exactly on the joint between the mill's z-axis slide and the headstock, with the headstock's spindle aligned exactly with the column. A vertical keyway, and 2 horizontal ones, on each side. I'm not at all familiar with Sherline's production methods, this may be a stab in the dark and impractical. But the tapered key concept makes a lot more sense than a straight key to me. While I'm on the subject of design suggestions for Sherline, another improvement I can think of would be an easier way to mount/dismount the column to/from the x-y base instead of tipping it over to get at the two mounting screws. I have a shopmade baseplate serving the same purpose as the one supplied by Sherline, allowing me to mount the column off to the side of the x-y base--so the mill can be used as a horizontal mill, with the headstock in horizontal position, in line with the y axis (front to back). Instead of screws, why not the same kind of posts that hold the headstock to the z axis slide? 2 of them, in place of the mounting screws, with setscrews into the side of the column's base block, bearing against the posts. What do ya think, Craig? my two cents, Ken ------- Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 14:24:13 -0000 From: "neilunreal" Subject: Re: Mill Problem I have a similar problem, a few hundredths of a millimeter of tilt in the mill head. It's not the column, the column is, and remains, perfectly straight. What happens in my case is that the alignment is perfect when the weight of the motor is removed. When the weight of the motor is added, it causes the head to twist or sag slightly in that direction (<.1 degree). It doesn't appear to be the column flexing, though it might be compression in the jib. I suspect it's the sum total of all the compressions and stresses in the entire system with the added weight. I haven't implemented a long-term fix, since I plan on converting to the horizontal upgrade soon and the stresses will be difference. -Neil ------- Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 11:10:31 -0500 From: Ken Grunke Subject: Re: Mill problem (My original post is quoted at the bottom in full) A square key tapered on two sides may be practical, I suppose, but a tapered slot would add more production time--so I figured that a tapered round pin slipped in between the headstock and the headstock mount might be easily made with an exterior broach or even be an off-the-shelf item. And the tapered holes would be quicker than milling tapered keyways, I'm sure. They would be cut "in situ" or with the two parts mated and in alignment with each other. I kind of doubt that Sherline would consider retooling for this idea, they keep their prices affordable by sticking to a tried and true design--but like you say, an end-user modification is very practical. Milled keyways would have to be cut seperately on each mating surface, on two slightly different axises (axii?) for each side of the keyway. Does that sound easy? Not to me. To Larry, asking about photos or drawings--no, I don't have either. But if there's something that needs clarification, feel free to ask :-) Now as far as my second idea with the mill column (replacing the mounting screws underneath with a quick-release mount) I hope Sherline would seriously consider. I don't think retooling for that would be impractical, but it also would be a straightforward user mod. I have two other places I use the mill column in, one is off to the side of the base with the headstock in horizontal position, and two, on the carriage of my Compact 8 lathe. So I'm motivated to make it easier to switch around. Precision alignment of the column would be needed in horizontal mill mode, supplied by a key and keyway, of course. My two cents worth again, Ken ------- Date: Mon, 27 May 2002 19:27:16 -0400 From: ron ginger Subject: Re: mill problem Any key or pin can eventually wear, and even the best manufacturing job will have a tolerance, hence not be exactly right. I suggest adding a steel pin into the bed, in about the position of the key. Then drill and tap a pair of holes in the headstock arranged so that the two screws will bear on the pin, one from the front, one from the back. This is exactly the way a tailstock is fitted on all large lathes. By adjusting the two screws the headstock can be set to exact alignment, or to an exact angle if desired. When I get a chance Ill modify my lathe and take some photos. ron ginger ------- Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 16:31:09 -0000 From: "tresark" Subject: Axis Play I've recently purchased a new 5400 mill. I notice that the y-gib has had to be adjusted almost every other day. Or at least I think so. If I extend the x axis out to near zero I can easily hold the end of the cross slide and cause the y axis to move between 5 and 10 thousandths. Tightening the gib drops this down to near .002. Also pressing down on the spindle I can cause it to move about the the same 5 thousandths, lifting up about the same. I haven't adjusted the z gib yet because the cnc motors I'm using are near the limit when lifting the z axis, and increasing the friction would probably stall the motor. I'll order a more robust z stepper as funds permit and adjust then. My question, Is this a normal amount of play or should I be concerned? I know the stock answer would be depends on what you are doing, but as I would like to ensure the accuracy before the new wears off I'm asking for what's the low side of what I can expect for play. Thanks, and I've read hundreds of posts in recent days and I must say that I'm glad I chose to go with Sherline. Doug ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:22:03 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Axis Play Dear Doug, From your description related to the Z-axis it sounds like you are measuring the backlash rather than anything that can be adjusted with the gibs. The gibs limit side-to-side play, but backlash can never be completely eliminated with a threaded leadscrew. .005" of backlash (up-down play) in the Z-axis would be about normal. (Backlash is the distance between the contact surfaces of the leadscrew thread when changing direction of rotation. Zero distance would mean both sides of the thread would be in contact at the same time, making it very hard to turn if not impossible.) Though backlash cannot be eliminated, it is accommodated by always approaching your cut from the appropriate direction. When milling with a fly cutter, bring your cutter DOWN to the proper height and then lock the headstock in place with the saddle locking lever. The headstock will then already be at the top extreme of its backlash and cannot be pushed back up by the forces of the fly cutter. When using an end mill, keep in mind that the cutter biting into the surface can tend to pull any backlash out of the Z-axis leadscrew. This can cause the headstock (even if it is locked) to be pulled down slightly during the cut. If you lower the cutter beyond the intended depth by more than the backlash amount and then bring it up to the height of your final cut before locking it in place, you can assure that the mill cannot pull itself down deeper than you had intended during the cut. Experience will teach you what effects backlash will have on your cuts so that you can anticipate them. Remember that you cannot eliminate backlash, but you can eliminate its unwanted effect through proper technique. On the X- and Y-axis gib adjustment, make sure the hole in the gib where the lock pin is inserted is not elongated and also make sure your locking pin is locked in place with the set screw. Once adjusted, the gib should not move, and it certainly should not wear noticeably in only two days. Extending the X-axis all the way and putting an extreme side load on it at the end probably does not represent any force you would likely encounter during milling. Since on a 5400 mill all the cutting takes place pretty much directly over the saddle, your cutter won't have this kind of leverage, so extremely tight gibs are not necessary. Again, make sure that you are not measuring backlash here. Backlash on the X and Y axes is adjusted with the brass star gear where the leadscrew goes into the saddle. See the adjustment description on page 11 of your instruction manual. The proper setting would be about .003" to .005" of backlash. Any additional comments/corrections from experienced users are welcomed. Craig Libuse Sherline ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:00:32 +0200 From: Douglas Burkett Subject: Re: Axis Play Craig, I haven't adjusted backlash on any axis since receiving the mill. I have used a dial indicator and every axis is between .003 and .004 thousands. Having a CNC mill I don't think I have the Z axis lock. Thinking about it, I'm sure you are right with there being little likelyhood that the mill would during normal use not be able to extert the force to cause the y movement. However, I noticed the play when milling along a straight edge by manually rotating the x-axis handwheel. The finish had a wavy feel to it. Allowing the mill to traverse the edge under CNC control produced a smooth finish. But cranking the hand wheel rapidly caused the wavy finish. I guess with the leverage at the extreme extension of the axis I shouldn't turn the handwheel so forcefully? Tightening the gib on the y axis pretty much eliminated the waves. Should I be concerned with getting the gib too tight? Thanks, Doug ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:14:34 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Axis Play Dear Doug, Good handwheel technique would probably eliminate the wavy finsh, since you have noted that it was smooth when the stepper motor was doing the moving. Use a two-handed technique alternating with your fingers on the outer knurled edge of the handwheel rather than using the handle during a cut, or at least for the final pass. (See note on inside back cover of instruction manual and photo Figure 77 on page 41.) The handle is used for rapid position changes, but it can cause you to put left/right forces into the table during a cut. I don't know which CNC system you are using, but most of them have a way to account for backlash in the program. .003" to .004" is within the recommended range. You are correct in that if you ordered a CNC-ready mill we did not include the Z-axis lock. It was felt that inadvertantly locking the Z-axis might cause some damage to the stepper motors, so we leave them off. If you get the gibs too tight it will be difficult for you (or the stepper motor) to move the axis, and the gibs will wear more rapidly, but the tighter they are, the less side-to-side movement you will have. Experiment until you find a combination of play/tightness you like. Craig Libuse Sherline ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:36:52 -0000 From: "flyk35r3" Subject: Backlash Adjustment Speaking of Backlash Adjustment I found it a big PITA to get at the starwheel locking screws without caming them out. I have since substituted button head cap screws and now it is much easier. Gary Severson ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:08:33 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Backlash Adjustment Dear Gary, The old pointer style locks used to use a pan head screw that required a flat bladed screwdriver. The new star gear lock comes with a button head screw, or at least it should. (It requires a hex key to loosen/tighten.) What are you defining as a "button head cap screw" as opposed to the "button head socket screw" that comes with it? Just curious. Craig ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:35:46 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Axis Play |You are correct in that if you ordered a CNC-ready mill we did not include |the Z-axis lock. It was felt that inadvertently locking the Z-axis might |cause some damage to the stepper motors, so we leave them off. Hi, Craig: While I'd expect that inadvertently locking the Z-Axis might result in a bad part, I'd not expect it to damage either a stepper or servo motor. Since a stopped stepper motor often runs with full coil current flowing, I'd not expect any burn out issues. What failure modes would Sherline anticipate? Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:03:44 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Axis Play Jerry, It was more an issue of ruining the part as you mentioned. We felt including the lock might cause more problems than it solved, but there is no reason anyone who wants to add the lock cannot do so. The lock kit is P/N 4017U. If you are installing a stepper motor mount on a lathe that came with a locking lever, you can decide whether or not you want to reinstall the lock on the new leadscrew. Craig Libuse -------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:05:01 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: Backlash Adjustment Either way, once the mill is attached to a board it is REALLY difficult to get the Allen-key into the socket screw. I find that I need to make this adjustment about every other day, but I use my mill for 4-6 hours continuously per day. I have just moved my rotary table to a new location on the base so that may change how frequently I need to adjust the backlash. Even though the CNC controller program compensates for backlash it still has an adverse effect on the finish quality and less is ALWAYS better. Another complaint, and this one should be easy to fix: why was the mill and CNC-rotary table designed in such a way that the stepper motor mounts on the Y-axis and the rotary table (when vertical) collide and cannot pass? I guess if you mount the rotary table on a tooling plate it will be high enough not to interfere. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:17:16 -0700 From: Randy Gordon-Gilmore Subject: Y motor, was Re: Backlash Adjustment At 06:05 PM 6/11/2002 -0400, Daniel wrote: >Another complaint, and this one should be easy to fix: why was the >mill and CNC-rotary table designed in such a way that the stepper >motor mounts on the Y-axis and the rotary table (when vertical) >collide and cannot pass? This happened to me with my 3" toolmaker's vise overhanging the front of the table. The mount (and motor) were about a 10-15 thou above the table surface, which I corrected with a large mill file and black Magic Marker for touchup. I don't think that the problem would necessarily be easy to fix, since it involves the location of the Y leadscrew and nut, the dimensions of a Size 23 motor, and the thickness of the mill table. Filing the motor (actually, just the endbell in my case) and mount was the easy fix... Best regards, Randy ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:20:45 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: Y motor, was Re: Backlash Adjustment That was the easy fix I was looking for. I agree that Sherline would not have an easy fix since their tooling is already set-up the way it is. So far it has just been a slight annoyance and hasn't prevented anything except some eyeball alignment I was going to do with an endmill on the top of the rotary table and couldn't move it over far enough. Trial-and-error worked really well for that one. Thanks, Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:42:33 -0700 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Backlash Adjustment Hi Dan, Perhaps they assumed it would be mounted on the adjustable angle table? Are you using the tailstock with the rotary table? Just curious. I'm trying to get the rotary table on an adjustable angle table, AND the tailstock all to play together on my old Sears/Sherline (5000) mill! My mill is on a slab of 1" aluminum, about 12" x 16". So I KNOW how hard it is to get to the backlash adjustment for the X axis (last night)! My backlash nut is stripped (and probably the pointer too), so I've got them on order. No CNC 'till then! I WISH I could use the new Allen head button screw, instead of trying to get the little pointer engaged w/ the nut. The new design sounds like an improvement! I think I'm getting a new 5400 Deluxe mill soon! Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:01:02 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: Backlash Adjustment I have made a few Key fobs and necklace pendants from some 3/8" diameter titanium barstock and have used the tailstock with the rotary table. It is an adjustable tailstock, so it was simple to use. Generally, I do not use the tailstock for my rings. The new backlash adjustment star-point washer is simple to use, just a pain to get to. Dan. ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:05:43 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Backlash Adjustment "why was the mill and CNC-rotary table designed in such a way that the stepper motor mounts on the Y-axis and the rotary table (when vertical) collide and cannot pass? I guess if you mount the rotary table on a tooling plate it will be high enough not to interfere." Hi Dan, The rotary table and mill were designed twenty-some years ago, and they were designed so that the handwheels did clear each other. The addition of larger 23-frame stepper motor mounts was simply not anticipated at the time the original dimensions were determined. If we were designing the components from scratch now, you can be sure we would have made sure they cleared, but we had to adapt the existing designs to meet new requirements and did the best we could. At the end of the instructions we provide a drawing for a simple riser plate that will overcome the problem. We sell the plates, but also provide the drawing in case people want to make their own. As you note, the tooling plate will also eliminate the problem. Craig Libuse Sherline ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:23:33 -0700 From: Randy Gordon-Gilmore Subject: Re: Backlash Adjustment At 07:01 PM 6/11/2002 -0400, Alan wrote: > night)! My backlash nut is stripped (and probably the pointer too), so > I've got them on order. No CNC 'till then! I WISH I could use the new My order of Moglice just came, so when I work up the gumption I'll be casting new almost-no-backlash leadscrew nuts for my mill and lathe per Ron Ginger's guidelines a year or so back on the cad_cam_edm_dro list. I had ordered new starwashers to go on my backlash nuts (mine came with pointers, one of which I lost) and discovered too late that they were not interchangable (I think I didn't read closely enough before I ordered). Best regards, Randy ------- Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:11:00 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Rotary table interference, was Backlash Adjustment Craig: Actually the solution is simple on Sherline's end, at least for the interference I am experiencing. It occurs for me when the rotary table is mounted on the 90 degree angle plate. Just make the base of the angle plate thicker and raise the rotary table, it looks like a small amount. Obviously the tailstock would need to be raised the same amount. Seems simple to me, and nothing on the mill needs to be altered. Or as suggested, I can just mount everything on a tooling plate. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:13:02 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Re: Backlash Adjustment > Mine came with phillips head screws. Gary, You are correct, all the old examples I see around here have phillips heads, but the old drawing I looked at appeared to have a single slot in the head. The new star gears are slightly larger than the old pointer, so the hole must be about a half a hole further away from the leadscrew, which is why they aren't interchangeable. Craig Libuse Sherline ------- Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:55:37 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Rotary table interference, was Backlash Adjustment Dear Dan, Nothing is ever quite as simple as it seems. Increasing the height of the rotary table would require new parts for both the tilting angle table and the right angle attachment as well as the taller right angle tailstock base you mention. None of these parts would work in conjunction with units already out there. The right angle tailstock also works with the indexing attachment, so it would also have to be changed or we'd have to have two different versions. Within days we'd be getting complaints from people who bought the new right angle tailstock and it wasn't the same height as their 3-year old tilting angle table. We would end up having to stock duplicate parts for all three attachments for years and keep track of which was which. CNC rotary tables are becoming more popular, but they still represent a small portion compared to the number of manual rotary tables sold, and only the CNC rotary tables have this problem, so for now we will have to live with the riser plate (or tooling plate) solution. If we were a software manufacturer things would be much simpler. We would simply tell you that the new version is not compatible with your old hardware and you have to buy all new stuff. Craig Libuse Sherline ------- Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:37:35 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: sherline adjustable handwheels Devin, When reinstalling the Z-axis handwheel, lift the headstock up by hand as far as it will go and push the handwheel down until it seats against the thrust before you tighten the set screw. This should remove the backlash. Same thing on the table. Push the table toward the handwheel while pushing the handwheel against the thrust before tightening the set screw. On the X and Y axes you can further adjust backlash using the antibacklash screws. See your instruction manual on page 11 for an explanation and a drawing of how they work. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:29:05 +0200 From: Douglas Burkett Subject: Fly Cutting I'm attempting to use the fly cutter to square a surface, the back of the cutter is taking a cut too. Which as I understand is supposed to happen. However the shape of the part prevents me from making a complete pass with the cutter, both front and back. Is there something I can do to lessen the cut of the back side? It is taking a couple of thousandths and causing a step on the finished surface because it doesn't pass across the entire surface. Thanks, Doug ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:34:41 -0400 From: "j.guenther" Subject: RE: Fly Cutting Doug: Check the alignment of the head on you mill. Make sure it is perfectly square to both the x and y axis, this is known as tramming the head. John Guenther Sterling, Virginia List Mom ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 18:54:04 +0200 From: Douglas Burkett Subject: Re: Fly Cutting I'm using the 5400 mill, I don't think it has an adjustment for squaring the spindle to the table. As least not for the y-axis. The shape of the part is forcing me to use the y-axis to traverse it. The short travel and length of the part won't allow the fly cutter to move over the entire part. Thanks, Doug ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:13:07 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Fly Cutting Doug, In Joe's instructions for using the fly cutter he notes that even with the head perfectly square, a fly cutter will take a cut of one or two thoushandths on the back side, usually due to tool deflection on the first pass on the front side. This doesn't mean your mill is out of alignment. Since you can't make a full pass with a fly cutter, is it possible for you to machine this surface with an end mill instead? It may take longer and the finish may require more sanding, but it would at least be flat. By the way, if your 5400 mill IS out of alignment, the column can be adjusted by using shims. For help on aligning your mill see www.sherline.com/millalin.htm. Craig Libuse Sherline ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 20:56:52 +0200 From: Douglas Burkett Subject: Re: Fly Cutting Craig, I took your advice, used an endmill and a CNC cycle to mill the surface. Actually I like the finish much better than the fly cutter. With the overlaps of return travel the surface actually has a sort of decorative finish. I'm not sure I understand the sanding part though. I can't imagine that I could sand it any more flat than I could mill it flat. Doug ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:16:01 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: Flattening a piece of aluminum Folks: I recently picked up a piece of aluminum extrusion that I'd like to make into a sacrificial plate for my Sherline mill. I've noticed that the aluminum is not exactly flat (it rocks a little when set on the mill table). It would seem that I should do the equivalent of jointing one surface to make it flat, and then planing the other surface to make it parallel to the first surface. I believe this can be done with a fly cutter on the mill. How would you suggest clamping the piece so I don't remove the warp by twisting the material? The piece is about 4 x 7 inches and about 1/2 inch thick. Thanks, Carol & Jerry Jankura Strongsville, Ohio ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:18:56 -0500 From: "Bad Brad" Subject: Re: Flattening a piece of aluminum Clamp one end of the plate down and shim the end that is raised off the table and then clamp. Forrest ------- Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:25:23 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Flattening a piece of aluminum Jerry: When my dad used to make aerospace models they would get parts that weren't flat (like stainless steel wing sections) that had to have flats milled on them. They would mix up a batch of Bond-o and bed the part into it on another plate. Two-part Bond-o dries pretty quickly. The base is then clamped to the mill table. It's a little messy, but it leaves the whole top side of the part free of clamps and puts no clamping stress on the part. Once one side is machined flat on your part, you would just break up the bondo with a hammer to release the part. The excess Bond-o chips off the part pretty easily. You'd then have one flat side to work from. I am told, however, that extruded material can have internal stresses that, when relieved by drilling or machining, can cause the plate to warp further. That is why we use cast plate for our tooling plates. Cast plate has less internal stressing than extruded material. We were fortunate to have our model shop next to an auto body shop, so Bond-o was in ready supply. In fact, they used so much of it next door, we used to call the shop owner "Leonardo de Bondo". We found that it is handy stuff that has lots of uses besides just fixing dents in cars. The Bond-o technique may or may not apply here, but you might keep it in mind for particularly difficult to hold parts in the future. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 23:04:23 -0000 From: "tojo46" Subject: Dovetails I am new owner of a sherline 6000 package. I plan primarily on using it for dollhouse furniture and model ship making. One of my uses will be to cut dovetails in dollhouse furniture (1/12th scale). Looking for any helpful hints on using the mill to cut dovetails. I did purchase the 10,000 rpm pulley upgrade for woodworking. Tim Illinois ------- Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 15:21:50 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Dovetails Tim: I have not built doll house furniture however I have machined a number of small wood projects. End mills, dental burs and abrasive stones can be used on wood in the same way they would be on metal. I have had better finish cuts with dental burs than with dremel burs. I would also suggest the use of wood hardener before machining wood. On course grain wood like oak I have used super glue with good results. If you plan to stain the wood , hardeners may give you a problem. you will just have to experiment. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:09:50 -0400 From: Tom Bank Subject: Re: Dovetails Tim: Dremel makes an engraving bit, #108, that is a dovetail with a 1/32" diameter at the wide end. That would be 3/8" in doll house scale. They also make a similar 1/16" bit if you wanted to model 3/4" dovetails. They then have a router attachment for the standard model Dremel tools -- not the flexshaft models. You would have your choice between going down to your woodworking tool supply store or Sears and looking at a dovetail fingerboard setup and machining a small copy of it, or just skip the Dremel router, buy the appropriate Sherline cutter holder, clamp your wood stock to a flat board on the mill table and cut your dovetails. The former alternative, done right, will make it easier to line up the two pieces of wood so the dovetails come out even. The later alternative, since you have the mill, would be cheaper. If you are doing very much of this work, there is an advantage to having specialized tools for cutting miniature dovetails. Regards, Tom Bank ------- Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 13:41:06 -0700 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: 'T' slot cutting I want to cut a 't'-slot in compound slide for a large lathe to enable me to use a quick-change tool post. My only way of doing this is with my Sherline mill. I understand using a straight mill cutter to do the verticle part of the slot, and I assumed I should use a Woodruff cutter for the horizontal cut. However, every catalogue I have lists these cutters with a 1/2" shank, which is to big for my holder (3/8"). There is the option of using the 1/2" in the 3-jaw chuck, but most authors I've read caution against this (and the drill chuck)for holding milling cutters. So, anyone have any ideas on this... either where to get the smaller shank cutter, or another method altogether? Thanks, Wm. Dubin ------- Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 19:31:09 -0400 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: 'T' slot cutting Hi, Wm.: The easiest way I know is to check out a Taig dealer and purchase one of the blank arbors that they sell. Take about 0.090 off of the drilled and tapped end. Then, thread the arbor on the headstock, bore and ream a 0.5 inch hole in the undrilled end of the arbor. Add a threaded hole for a set-screw and you've got your 1/2 inch arbor. I built one a while back and am quite satisfied with the results. The arbor costs only a couple of bucks, so you may even want to buy a few. -- Jerry ------- Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:54:37 -0700 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: Re: 'T' slot cutting Jerry, I had considered this, as other people have mentioned the Taig arbor before. I've not tried using a Woodruff cutter, do you think a Sherline mill, using the Taig arbor and the correct Woodruff cutter would be stable enough to cut through steel? (an unknown steel, but this is a JET lathe, so I doubt it's a better quality). Any hints on using the Woodruff cutter? Thanks, Wm. -------- Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 00:31:43 -0000 From: "flyk35r3" Subject: Re: 'T' slot cutting Is it possible to bore out a standard sherline mill holder to 1/2". A real T-slot cutter has stagered teeth. My concern with a woodruff cutter is that you will get all the swarf jammed in there because there is no relief. You might play around with grinding relief on your woodruff cutter. I have not done this before, so I don't know if it is feasable. Gary Severson ------- Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 19:00:24 -0700 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: 'T' slot cutting Hi Wm: You will find that a Tee slot cutter or a woodruff cutter will be very difficult to use on something as small as a Sherline. These kinds of cutters vibrate quite heavily, even on a Bridgeport. The reason is that they are of fairly large diameter, and have wide teeth. Each tooth takes a full width bite; it's a bit like trying to use a 1/4" wide parting blade in the lathe. A far better option is to nibble it out with a skinny flycutter. It will be dreadfully slow, but it can be done and it will be far less risky in my opinion. Be sure to stabilize the machine column with a clamped on reinforcement if you can, and make your setup as robust as you can. This means the stubbiest cutter you can get away with (keeps the cutting forces close to the front spindle bearing.) Use lots of clamps to hold your workpiece down. Grind your tool fairly skinny (no wider than 1/8") and take light cuts.(about 0.010 per pass should work) If you can, drill some holes through the area the the undercut areas of the tee slots will occupy first, to reduce the burden of metal that you have to nibble out with the cutter. It will be a long pair of holes to make it all the way through the width of the compound slide, but they will help a lot! You may even be able to drill these holes with the compound slide blocked up into position on the lathe. It's going to be cast iron, and should drill really easily compared to steel. Best bet is to scribble on the sides of the compound with some felt marker, and then lay out the profile of the tee slot on both sides of the compound. DRILL THE HOLES FIRST before you do any of the other milling operations!!!! Give yourself a good 0.025" per side stock allowance for the drilled holes. So if its a 0.250" wide slot, your drill should be no bigger than 0.200" dia and could be as small as 0.150". Just means a bit more work for the flycutter! Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:24:05 -0700 From: Wm. Dubin Subject: Re: 'T' slot cutting Thanks to everyone who replied on the 'T' slot cutting question. From everything written here, plus the advice of some friends not on Sherline, it seems that doing it on the mill would be a basically BAD idea. I checked with a locale machine shop, and they wanted $400.00 to do the job, making the whole idea absurd. Looks like I'll stick with the OLD FASHIONED tool block. Wm. ------- Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 07:31:59 -0700 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: 'T' slot cutting Hi Wm: NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!!!! You can do it!!!! All you need is a bit of time and some ingenuity. A milling machine is just a glorified cold chisel. On the Sherline you only have a little hammer to hit it with instead of a 5 pound sledge. If you are willing to take the time, it will be duck soup. Just don't be in a hurry, and don't expect to be able to hog it out in 3 passes. Nibble a bit at a time, and you will be done before you know it. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 10:43:16 -0400 From: "j.guenther" Subject: RE: 'T' slot cutting I don't see why this can't be done on a Sherline if the part can be clamped to the table. Just remember that on ANY small mill, you have to take smaller cuts and most things take longer. I bored out a Sherline mill holder to hold 1/2" shank woodruff key seat cutters about 4 years ago and have used it several times. The only trick is light cuts, plenty of cutting fluid and a good dose of patience. It will work, you can do this on a Sherline but it will just take longer. It might take you 2 hours instead of 30 minutes so your gain will be $200.00 per hour instead of $800 per hour. Your time is much cheaper than the machine shops and you will learn something in the process. John Guenther Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 23:11:27 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: 'T' slot cutting Bill: I am a little late on this, but I have cut several larger "T" slots on the Sherline mill. The vertical slot was cut as you you described. The horizontal slot`s were cut with a micro 100 TBB-250 carbide tipped boring bar used as a fly cutter. The bar has a 1/4" soft shank that can be cut shorter or machined smaller to what ever size you would need. For my work it was held with the Sherline MT 1/4" collet. The tip can be easily ground to what ever dimension or used as is. The bars are available from just about any supply house for about $15.00. From MSC the item number is 02649721. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 22:24:08 -0400 From: "John Guenther" Subject: Sherline mill tooling plate hint / tip. I just went through the boring task of cleaning out all 23 tapped holes in my Sherline mill tooling plate. I have not had is off the mill for over a year, maybe more, and found out the other night that the holes were all clogged up with fine swarf. I removed the plate from the mill and ran a 10-32 tap through each of the holes. This ain't the most fun task I have ever done! I would suggest that you cover all the holes you are not using with aluminum foil, tape, put 10-32 set screws in them or come up with some other method of covering them up. I ran up on this problem when I could not get screws to tighten up with out forcing them, nearly stripped one so I took the plate off and cleaned them all out. I will keep the unused ones covered if at all possible from now on. John Guenther Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 04:09:59 -0000 From: "flyk35r3" Subject: Re: Sherline mill tooling plate hint / tip. another tool plate tip Mitee Bite fixture clamps work great on the tool plate. Those are little hexagon shaped clamps that are wedged against the part by a eccentric socket head screw. You don't have to program in clamping avoidance until you start cutting within 4mm of the tool plate. I use ones that use and 8-32 screw but they also make ones that use a 10-32 screw. Gary Severson ------- Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 18:51:34 -0000 From: "alenz2002" Subject: Finding Mitee-Bite 10-32 clamps Thanks for the tip Gary, However none of my catalogs nor the ones online listed the 10-32 size. Contacted Mitee-bite and got the following response: The item you are look for 10207 MB-3 Fixture clamp may not be in the catalogs of your distibutors. However, just let them know that it is a Mitee-Bite parts# and they can get it for you. We do drop ship for the distributors if there not a stock item.. If you need any more information please feel free to contact us. 603-539-4538 Al -------- Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 12:00:37 -0700 From: "David Wong" Subject: RE: Finding Mitee-Bite 10-32 clamps My local industrial supply house has the MB-3 10207 listed at $46.40 per package of 10. Dave W -------- Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:07:28 -0000 From: "tnance0913" Subject: How to mill a long slot Hi Guys, I have a real head scratcher that I hope you can help me with. I am thinking of building a miniature table saw using a 3-1/2" slitting saw as the blade. I was thinking about how it would all go together and what milling operations were involved and everything was fine until I came to the slots in the table where the miter gauge fits in the table. The table is 12" square and the slots (1/2"W X 1/4"D) have to run the length of the table. Which means I have to mill a 12" long slot. The problem is that the Sherline mill only moves 7 or 8 inches, so I have to cut for awhile and then reposition the work. My question is how does one position the work so that it is exactly aligned with the previous cut without spending two hours fiddling with dial indicators. It may very well be that this is just one of those operations where you just have to fiddle until it's right, but I was hoping for a little more elegant solution - perhaps a jig of some kind. A jig may be called for anyway because, offhand, I don't know how I can secure a 12" square piece of Aluminium to the mill table in the first place! Maybe someone can give me some ideas there also. Any help will be appreciated. Thanks, Tom Nance Corpus Christi, Tx ------- Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:54:41 -0000 From: "flyk35r3" Subject: Re: How to mill a long slot How about clamping a strait edge the length of your part then you can register this off the table or indicate off it to make sure it is square. If you want to be precise I don't know how you are going to get away without indicating. Gary Severson ------- Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:06:02 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: How to mill a long slot Tom: As an alternative to cutting the slots, you could use smaller pieces of 1/4" plate and bolt them to another plate leaving 1/2" wide gaps where necessary to form the slots. I was reminded of this by the recent postings of alternative ways to make a T-slot out of built-up components rather than cutting it. Craig Libuse ------- Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:51:46 -0400 From: "John Barnwell" Subject: RE: How to mill a long slot Get good at using dial indicators and only spend 1/2 hour at it. But the better way is to bosition the part to be cut against a fixed raised edge on a tooling plate and then just unclamp and slide the part along this raised edge. The "tooling plate" could be as simple as a piece of mdf with a small alum angle screwed on one edge and some holes for clamping keeping the portion you are cutting over the table. Also you may have to make an extension for the feed handle since you may not be able to reach it. I might also suggest a smaller slot 3/8 wide by 3/16 deep perhaps. JB ------- Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:04:52 -0500 From: ken grunke Subject: Re: How to mill a long slot This may sound outlandish to some, but do you have a router? I've used a router with a carbide bit to mill slots in aluminum. Best done using a router table, with a straight fence that is twice as long as the piece you are milling. Use a bit that is smaller than the final width of your slot--in your case, 3/8--so you can fine-tune the width to 1/2 inch by lightly tapping the fence. Using a light feed and depth of cut, you might be able to get it done faster than on the Sherline, and with very good accuracy--the slots will be perfectly parallel with each other as long as the same edge of your aluminum plate is used against the fence for both slots. Ken Grunke LaFarge, WI ------- Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 11:23:54 -0000 From: "mileagemayvary" Subject: Re: How to mill a long slot I have had very good results with 2 part epoxy for joining al. It might be easier to create the slot by using 3 pieces and joining them. Maybe some holes or indents to key the adhesive. Sand to roughen the mating surfaces. Put them through the dishwasher to remove all traces of grease. Rinse to remove all traces of the dishwasher alkali. Glue and clamp with a couple of pieces of the miter slide as spacers. Less noise and you get lots of chances to get it right while it sets. You can test it on some scrap to see that you have the right epoxy. At the tool shop yesterday I was pleased to find that they had a big range of more friendly size dispensers of the very high spec (-40 to +200C)epoxy that was only available in industrial quantities for $$$$ a few months ago. Rob ------- Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:55:22 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: Tramming Mill Doug: The alignment pin for holding the headstock is not an absolute perfect fit. Loosen the head and retighten it and see if you can change your DTI readings. Look at the way they change and adjust the headstock so that they are as close as you can get. You can also view the DTI when the indicator is resting on the front edge of the table and then also on the back edge. This will show you the misalignment of the headstock, forward to back, as opposed to left and right. This can be adjusted using shims. HTH, remember that you are allowed to experiment with all of these "adjustments", and if you follow a specific routine and record the results of the changes you make, it will lead you to a path of alignment based on logic. This is really something that needs to be practiced. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 12:21:53 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: Tramming Mill From: "Douglas Burkett" >>> Dan, Taking your advice, I loosened the headstock holding screw. Look at the webpage again and the link for http://www.douglas.burkett.com/level2/default2.htm shows what happened. Would I be correct in saying that the difference across a 3/8ths endmill should be in direct proportion to the slope across the three inch sweep of the DTI? Or 1/8 of the error, just under 2 tenths? Doug <<< Yes the error over a smaller diameter is certainly less than the error over a larger diameter. I do not know what your final goal is for alignment, but this alignment is really a measure of degrees rotation of the headstock, and not a linear measure. Although, you are using a linear measurement to measure this rotational offset. What you can do now is lightly tap the headstock with a non-marring implement (rubber hammer, paper-towel wrapped steel bar, etc.). By tapping in the correct direction (determined again by experimentation) you should be able to get the alignment as close as you would like. If it is perfectly aligned to the table (and the table is not warped), then the reading should be the same in all directions of the sweep. This, unfortunately, is not possible. Also, realize that the removal of an endmill from a collet by tapping on the draw bolt may disrupt your exact alignment. The real decision becomes how critical the alignment is to the machining operation that your are attempting, and how much time an effort you want to expend in the alignment knowing that it will not last too long. Dan. ------- Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:21:06 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Re: Question about locking the table on the milling machine > From what I undertstand, that large knob is not what locks the Y axis. > Unfortunately, there is nothing at this time that does lock it. The Y-axis friction lock is what serves as a lock in that direction. It pushes in on the gib, and at the same time pulls the saddle dovetail against the bed on the other side. Because these are lubricated sliding surfaces and because the contact area of the pressure point is very small, it does not serve as a very positive "lock". The "barrel" lock on the X axis is a much more positive lock, but at this time, the thumbscrew is all that is available to lock the Y axis. Mr. Dubin has suggested a screw that goes down through the saddle to "lift" the saddle against the dovetail. We have also looked at adding a T-slot to the mill base extrusion to pull the saddle down onto the base, but a suitable location that does not interfere with other operations has not been found. Larry Mortimer has suggest a simple solution that he says works well. It is a 1" x 3/4" aluminum block with a hole through it that goes where the thumbscrew is. Tightening the thumbscrew (with the Delrin piece that contacts the gib removed) causes a .030" high ridge on top of the block to rub on the side of the mill base to lock it. I will try to add a sketch of it to the "tips" page soon. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 11:20:57 -0400 From: RichD Subject: Re: Chip guard for y-axis on Mill -- any suggestions? Mike: I recycle my printer discards by using them for scratch paper, machine shims, vise grippers and chip shields, etc. Fold a sheet in half long ways and crimp it again in half. Clip it to the front edge of the X slide with small paper binder clips hooked into the front slot. At the rear, clip it the same way and just curve the sheet down, then up the column. Depending on how much X travel you will need determines how to hold the top edge. A couple of rubber band strands and clips to a shelf above is my solution. When the job is done, strip off the shields and toss. Vacuum the rest. 95% of the mess is kept off the machine ways/screws. RichD ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 13:59:45 -0000 From: "variousgroups" Subject: Edge Finder Question There is a Starrett edge finder, Model 827A, that would appear to be well suited to the Sherline Mill, but then again maybe not. Edge finders are said to be hollow. Therefore, they probably don't like to be held by a set screw, because a set screw can deform the hollow barrel. In a collet there would be no such deformation. If an edge finder is held by a set screw, then there will be a pressure exerted from the side of the edge finder along a diameter. If the round aperture into which the edge finder is inserted is ever so slightly greater in diameter than the edge finder, which it must be to in order allow insertion of the edge finder, then the set screw will displace axis of the edge finder away from the axis of the aperture by an amount equal to the difference in their diameters. The edge that one wants to find will then not be found, or located, exactly, but instead with an error made greated than it would otherwise be by an amount equal to twice the displacement (since the edge finder rotates). A collet would eliminate this source of error because a collet's holding pressure is exerted symmetrically. The Sherline Mill has a 3/8" end-mill holder with a set screw that would appear to be the only way to hold the 827A Starrett edge finder. This end-mill holder does not appear to accept a 3/8" collet. Starrett does not appear to offer a lesser-diameter edge finder, although perhaps such edge finders are avalable elsewhere. Is there an edge-finder solution for the Sherline Mill that doesn't introduce the error outlined above? Mike ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:25:10 -0500 From: "Nance, Tom" Subject: RE: Edge Finder Question Holy smokes, Mike. Do you use a cheater bar on the hex wrench to tighten the set screw? ^_^ You only need enough pressure to keep the beastie from flying across the room. As far as the idea that the edge finder barrel is not exactly centered in the end mill holder, you are right, although it would take some doing to measure that small a distance. But that is the beauty of that design of the edge finder. Even if it is slightly off center, it will still not "kick" until the knob is fully seated on the work. It will find the true center of rotation and do its magic regardless of how the barrel is turning. Tom Nance ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:30:08 -0400 From: "Kevin P. Martin" Subject: RE: Edge Finder Question By the nature of the way the edge-finder works, having the barrel of it slightly off-centre does not matter. The tip of the finder, which is free to slide laterally against the barrel, centers itself automatically on the rotation axis of the spindle. All you need to know accurately is the diameter of the tip (and if you are just looking for the center of a workpiece rather than an edge coordinate, use the same edge-finder on both sides and you don't even need its tip diameter). -Kevin Martin ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 15:38:06 -0000 From: "variousgroups" Subject: Edge Finder, what Starrett advised Thanks very much for your insights. I called Starrett and spoke with a gentleman in technical support and then with both him and Starrett's senior machinist. Actually, the machinist said he had never held an edge finder with an end-mill holder, since edge finders are meant to be held by collets. But his hunch was that it would work just as Tom Nance and Kevin Martin suggest, despite being slightly off center. As for the barrel, this is evidently failry robust, and so a snug-tightened set screw shouldn't hurt it. He did advise going through the procedure twice, setting the zero on the hand wheel the first time, then backing off and repeating to insure accuracy. ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:07:17 -0400 From: "Kevin P. Martin" Subject: RE: Edge Finder Question I think this happened to me too. I decided to dedicate an end-mill holder to the edge-finder and reamed the holder with a 3/8" reamer. A bit of metal dust came off and now the edge-finder just fits, and I leave it there permanently. This way I do not have to reset my cutter length on 3/8-shank cutters just because I had to do some edge-finding. A 3/8"-shank endmill I tried after reaming showed a feelable but not visible wobble play in the reamed holder (before tightening the setscrew, of course). -Kevin ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:40:42 -0000 From: "kevin_sedota" Subject: Re: Edge Finder Question One of the things that has bothered me about the endmill holder is that if the endmill it self does not exactly match the diameter of the hold in the holder it will cause the tool to wobble (assuming the endmill is too small). I've checked on runout of the hole in the endmill holder and there is hardly any so I know it's not a problem with a worn holder or something like that but when you tighten up the set screw on a endmill with a slightly smaller shank it will push the endmill to one side of the hole. When this happens the tool does not spin true. I've seen this happen on several occasions. When it does you are only cutting on one side of the end mill. For this reason I've tried to use endmills with a 1/4" and hold them with a milling collet. I'd be very interested in collet setup that would support 3/8" shanks. I've been using OSG endmill which are excellent quality but sometimes I actually get a better finish with a cheaper endmill with a 1/4" shank because I can hold it more with less runout. ------- Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:22:23 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Re: Edge Finder Question > That's strange, and may even raise a question about Sherline (I'm > assuming that, of all companies, Starrett surely keeps the tightest > tolerances). I, too, have a brand new, Starrett Model 827A edge > finder and a brand new Sherline 3/8" end mill holder. The finder > slips easily into the holder. In this regard, it may - or may not - > be significant that some, at least, of Sherline's products are made > in China. For example, the set of end mills, part #7400. Each end > mill in my set has China plainly maked on it. The Chinese, bless > their dim sum hearts, are not widely known for Starrett-level > tolerances. Mike Mike: The end mill holders and all components of Sherline tools are made in our factory here in Vista. They are bored and then reamed to 3/8". They are checked with pin gages. They are made to hold end mills, and end mills often run a few tenths under nominal shaft size. We try to keep the fit as tight as possible for maximum centering accuracy. I suspect the Starrett tool shafts are ground to exact size, under the assumption that they will be held in a collet which has a little size flexibility. Even slight burrs on either the shaft or the opening to the hole could make an exact fit tough to insert. Cleaning up the hole with a reamer was the proper solution. We purchase from outside sources things like bearings, belts and cutting tools that are not practical for us to make. Though we buy from American companies whenever possible, they often have suppliers or factories overseas that actually make the goods. The end mills are purchased from a company in Los Angeles that has a factory in China. Because cutting tools are offered by so many other sources, we offer them mainly as a convenience to our customers. Our former cutting tool supplier for 1/4" lathe tools would supply blanks that came from Poland, India, Pakistan, China, Germany and England. Each shipment came from wherever they got the best buy that week. We are currently searching for a supplier that will make us better quality cutters while still retaining a price that will be advantageous to Sherline buyers. If anyone knows of a good source, we would be happy to have them quote for us. Unfortunately, we aren't able to buy in the kind of quantities that make it possible for us to pass on great tools at hobbyist prices. Always buy the best cutting tools you can afford. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 10:57:06 -0500 From: "Bad Brad" Subject: Edge Finder, on the cheap. For an easy and cheap solution to edge finding for the Sherline Mill. I use a cut off 0.125" drill shank with a flat ground on on end mounted in the 0.125" milling collet. When the rotating, flat sided shaft contacts the edge being sensed there will be audible confirmation that you are on the edge. I then just add 0.0625" to the first movement. Mount the home made edge finder and check the run-out. (I can't measure any run out on my set up). This method works really good on the mills with the adjustable hand wheels, just set the dial and crank. I have one of the edge finders being discussed on the news group and found it to be less reliable than the previously mentioned method. One other tip: When tightening up the tools in the spindle on Sherline machines just hold the pulley with one hand and the other hand on wrench on the draw bolt. Using the "tommy" bars over tightens the draw bar type tooling making the tool hard to remove i.e. necessitating a bigger hammer. Forrest ------- Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 20:20:07 EDT From: joeb759x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Edge Finder Question To All that Responded: Am happy to see that I was not the only one having a problem with the 3/8 mill chuck. I will use a reamer on it and see if that helps. Although Craig says that the chucks have been reamed at Shearline. Thanks again for your input. Joe ------- Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:35:18 -0700 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Edge Finder Question Hi Joe: I just got an edge finder, and I have have two end mill holders, so I decided to try it on both of them. On the first end mill holder I had trouble getting the edge finder in, unless it was perfectly lined up with the hole. When it did go in, it was definitely a tight fit. I could slide the edge finder in and out easily (but with a small amount of resistance), but there was NO slop whatsoever. On the second end mill holder, I couldn't get it to go in at all. I couldn't see any viible burrs but figured there must be one. I took a 1/2" countersink and just ran it around the edge a couple times by hand. Then the edge finder would slide in. So the edge finder has to be really close to perfectly lined up before it will go in. You can't have the edge finder off axis at all. I normally hold what I'm inserting at a slight angle and let it seat itself as it goes in. This only works if there's clearance. Dave Hylands ------- Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:30:10 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Edge Finder Question Joe: Before you go to the trouble of reaming, you might just run a little emery cloth around the edge of the opening of the hole to make sure that there are no dings on the edge from handling that are keeping the shaft from entering the hole. Polishing the shaft of the Starrett gage might help too. Also, make sure you are inserting the gage perfectly straight. Our foreman tells me that the spec on the hole is .3752-.3753 and that each end mill holder is checked with a .3750 pin gage. The gages are miked to confirm they are on size. With a fit that tight, if the pin is not inserted perfectly square with the hole, it can jam and cause a slight ding on the inside of the hole which then makes it impossible to insert. If this is the case, running a reamer through it again will remove that minisucle imperfection and make it possible to insert the pin. We cannot make the hole any larger or end mills will not be located on center. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 12:32:22 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: leadscrew chip wiper There was recently a comment posted that the felt Y-axis chip wiper shown in tip #17 on the Sherline tips page tended to lose its ability to stick to the table once soaked in oil. Larry Mortimer has redesigned the clip that holds the felt wiper so that adhesive is not necessary to keep it in place. See the revised drawing at the bottom of Tip 17 at www.sherline.com/tip17.htm. Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 22:50:01 -0400 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Milling Machine Finally Broke Well, after just commenting how my model 5000-CNC machine had been running for 11 months for 3-5 hours per day without a problem, it turn out to be the kiss of death. Today I finally wore out the leadscrew and saddle nut for the X-axis. Of course it was in mid-milling of a customer's piece. Took the entire mill apart and ordered a few replacement parts for overnight delivery. If you do production work on your machine, I would advise the following replacement parts to have on hand: several leadscrews, saddle nuts, anti-backlash nuts, anti-backlash locks (star-shaped washers), various gibs and a replacement belt or two. I am also considering purchasing an extra CNC-ready X-Y table so that I do not have any down time while refurbishing. It is AWESOME that every single replacement part is individually available for overnight delivery. This is the main reason to buy these amazing machine tools. And the fact that the company is 3 hours behind my time zone makes it truly overnight if it breaks before 1:00 PM eastern time. I guess it had to happen eventually. The leadscrew and saddle nut were so badly worn that turning the stepper motors had no effect on the table movement, it would just pull out the backlash nut since it didn't have any thing to pull against.. I should have known that it was coming since the backlash adjustment needed to be done everyday or every other day at best for the last several weeks. Since I mill only on the surface of rings that are roughly 6-10 mm wide, and I leave the rotary table mounted on the mill at all times, in the same spot, it wore out in that spot only. I set the rotary table up on the extreme left side of the milling table, and this allows me to use the other side of the table for non-rotary jobs. Problem is, I don't have any non-rotary jobs. So this time I will periodically move the rotary table around a little bit. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 07:47:53 -0400 From: "John Guenther" Subject: How much weight can the Sherline mill handle on the table? Here is a question for the group. How much weight can a Sherline 5400 mill handle on the table? The iron casting I need to work on is 24 inches long. I have a need to machine the bottom of the ways for an imported 7x12 lathe project. I have figured out how to mount the bed casting on the mill table but I am uncertain that the mill table can handle the weight. It will take at least 3 setups to work the full length of the 24 inch bed which means that much of the casting will be hanging off the end of the table on two of the setups. The cuts will be light cuts as I only need to remove .017 from one side and .015 from the other and the cuts will be taken using the side of an end mill. I think the casting weighs about 15 or 20 pounds. I have been thinking of using some sort of roller support for the overhang when it is setup for either end. It will take 3 setups to work the full length of the underside of this lathe bed. What I am working on is a bed extension for my Grizzly 7x12 lathe to give me a 7x24 lathe. Unfortunately the donor bed is the thinner one so I will need to machine the original bed to bring it into agreement with the donor bed. John Guenther Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:07:27 -0000 From: "mc_n_g" Subject: Re: How much weight can the Sherline mill handle on the table? I have a CNC 5400. I called about them with the same type of question about 3 months ago. I was told the table can handle about 40-45 pounds. I think that is a lot considering the machine itself only weighs that!?! I was told to definitely watch the backlash nut and the threaded brass inserts with the leadscrews. If you do not have a lot of wear on those brass inserts you should be fine. Be prepared if they have a lot of wear that you may strip them. Remember the idea is the brass goes before the steel leadscrews. Recheck the weight to make sure. Be sure to have support under the longer edge sticking over the table. You do not want to bend the table when all the weight is on one side. I hope this helps some. mc_n_g ------- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:48:52 -0400 From: "j.guenther" Subject: RE: How much weight can the Sherline mill handle on the table? Thanks, that is just what I was looking for. I think my brass inserts are in good shape, the mill does not have that much actual use on it given that I have had it for about 7 years. I have been saving one of those cheap roller supports for use with a table saw or what ever that has a broken leg. I will take the roller off of it and mount to support the heavy end when the cast iron lathe bed positioned off center on the table. I suppose I could use a small grinding wheel and run the mill on high speed and grind off the .015 I need to remove but I will most likely use an end mill and take very light cuts, say .003 to .005 just to be on the safe side. What I may do for support is clamp a piece of maple that is long enough to always be on the support roller between the lathe bed and the table just to be on the safe side. I sure don't want to bend the table on my mill. I will post some pictures of this "extreme" setup when I get it all sorted out. John Guenther Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:07:02 -0700 From: "Craig Libuse" Subject: Re: Leaving the group To the group, Joe and I have decided not to have me continue to monitor the group on a dialy basis. This being a "users group", we felt our presence might be considered"spying" and might hamper the free flow of ideas and comments. Also, building and maintaining the Foundation's Craftsmanship Musem in addition to my regular job limits the time I have available to read and answer all the postings. This will in no way limit anyone from asking a question of me directly if it relates to something I can answer. Just e-mail craigx~xxsherline.com or call (800)541-0735 during business hours. I consider this group to be a very valuable resource for Sherline machinists and will continue to refer new customers to join the group. Thanks for all your help. Sincerely Yours Craig Libuse Sherline Products Inc. ------- Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:14:01 -0000 From: "clibuse" Subject: Re: Leaving the group - a missed opportunity for Sherline Eric and all the group: Thanks for your support. I have rejoined the group but will not be receiving the daily e-mails. I will read the current posts as time allows. If anyone has a question that needs my attention, please let me know to check on the thread and can respond directly to the whole group. By the way, I agree with your suggestion that we should promote this group more prominently than with just a link from our resources page. This group does a great service to the company by answering technical questions that would otherwise have to be handled by me or someone else here on out 800 number. All that aside, I have come to feel as though I know a number of the members and have great respect for their opinions and solutions. I will do my best to check in when I can. Thanks again. Craig Libuse Sherline Products ------- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:24:03 -0000 From: "mileagemayvary" Subject: Re: DRO and CNC option --- In sherlinex~xxy..., "kimvellore" wrote: > Does Sherline offer the option of both DRO and CNC in a package? > If it does not can I buy the DRO and buy the upgrade package forCNC > and have both? The reason I was planing on having both is I prefer to > use it manual with DRO for smaller projects. Thanks Kim Certainly can. I have done this and so have others here. Buy the Sherline motor mounts. Fit a 3/32" plate to the mounts. Make an extender shaft and a bush for it. Warning: I could not make an accurate threaded bush type fitting which did not tend to jam up when you tried to get everything centered and tightened. However I copied the Sherline donut type bush used in the DRO but used 2 mounting holes. Very nice to align, and jam free. Mount the DRO pickups on the plate. This all takes a bit of time as it has to be X 3. It depends on what your requirements are, but just about everything I do is a one off and I have no idea of what the thing is going to look like when I start, or usually how and where to make that first cut. Certainly a waste of time to code it, and firing up a computer to turn a motor so you can jog an axis does not give me as good a feedback feel for what I am doing as hands on the wheels, and watching the DRO. The motors have been taken off and left in the cupboard all year. I made a bracket which mounts under the Z axis mount and holds the DRO out on the left side of the machine at eye level, and this keeps it off the bench and also mounts a bench light. Rob ------- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:07:15 -0400 From: "Van Lupo" Subject: RE: DRO and CNC option Kim: You might want to checkout the photo's I posted some time ago in the files section of the group. Browse to DRO Adapter for CNC Steppers and checkout what I did for my machines. Also Sherline has published this method at http://www.sherline.com/DROonCNC.pdf Very simple to implement. I actually made my own thrust plates but you could order them from Sherline for peanuts. Van ------- Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:24:03 +0100 From: "David Simmons" Subject: Re: 3/8" end mill won't fit end mill holder From: "builder4wd" > I just got a TiCN Coated 3/8" end mill, and it won't fit into my 3/8" > sherline end mill holder! It's too tight, i can push it in a little > (about 1/4") but then it's too hard to push it in any further. What > should I do? Has anyone else experienced problems like this? I have talked to a few people that had to ream out there holders as they arrived a few thou undersize. Also some coated endmills measure a few thou oversize. When I was in the jobber shops I would most often buy blanks and fit the endmills myself. Different tooling manufacturers often have different sizes on the shaft, by a thou to a thou and half either way. HTH. Dave S. ------- Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 22:35:55 -0500 From: "jwalters" Subject: Re: 3/8" end mill won't fit end mill holder I had this problem the first time I attempted to install a coated end mill with a coated shank into a high precision Iscar heat shrink fit collet. Coated end mills with a coated shank simply will not fit into a high precision fixed chuck. To make the tool fit I would polish the shank with 400 grit silicon carbide paper. It sounds to me that the Sherline 3/8 tool holder is high precision. The best way to enlarge the holder a few tenths would be the use of 400 grit lapping compound with a brass lapping mandrel. Lapping is the best way to achieve high precision bores in the home shop. John Walters [OF COURSE PROPER-SIZED END MILLS WILL NOW BE LOOSE IN THE ENLARGED HOLDER. SOME HAVE MADE DEDICATED END MILL HOLDERS FROM INEXPENSIVE TAIG BLANK ARBORS. EACH END MILL IS SNUGLY RETAINED UNTIL IT IS WORN OUT.] ------- Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:46:55 -0700 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: squaring the mill From: "cxavier2002" > Though I own a 5410 sherline mill for 18months, it has never being > squared up properly. > On trying to squareup the Y axis, no matter I add shims up to 1mm on > the back or front of the colum base, I always get a difference of > 0.07mm being on the far end than on the near end of the table with > reference to the colum which means that the angle % Y/Z >90o. > Can you guys give a helping hand pls. Thanks. Xavier Hi Xavier: First thing we need to know is how you are measuring the deviation of the Y axis. Here's what to do: Clamp a dial test indicator in the spindle of the mill. You can clamp it in a collet or in the drill chuck...it doesn't matter at all which you choose. Bring the head down until the point of the DTI just touches the table, and then down NO MORE THAN 0.005". Without touching the indicator or any part of the head, traverse the table over its full range. If you get a deviation of more than 0.001" the tabletop is not parallel to the ways, and no amount of shimming will correct it. You have two choices at this point. 1) Send the machine back to Sherline and have them correct the problem. 2) Get a tooling plate and mill it flat with a small cutter while mounted on the table. (never remove it once you've milled it...it has become your "new" tabletop and will be perfectly parallel to the ways.) On the other hand, if your table checks out with this first indicator test, you can proceed to adjust the spindle axis to be at right angles to the table surface. THE VERY MOST ACCURATE (AND TEDIOUS) WAY: Bolt four little lumps of aluminum onto the table so they are at the extreme ends of the X axis and Y axis travels. Put a 1/4" ballcutter in the spindle and mill off just enough from the tops so they are all cleaned up AT THE SAME HEIGHT SETTING OF THE HEAD. Use a very fine cross feed setting when you make your passes across the tops of these blocks so they're smooth. Now put an DTI into the spindle and center the head between the blocks. The DTI needs to be mounted on an arm so it can be swung around and adjusted to touch both the Y axis blocks without moving the table. The mounting arm should be long enough to allow the DTI to be moved so it can touch the X axis blocks also just by swinging the spindle. Now you can begin to tilt and shim the column until the indicator reads no deviation front to back and side to side. Most people do not have the patience to do it this way, and for good reason...it's a pain in the ass! The more common way is to swing the dial indicator across the table directly, and ignore whatever error is in the table. This way is a bit better but still a PITA. The easiest and fastest way is to have a nice accurate angle plate, and a ground bar in the spindle collet, dialed in for zero runout. Some guys have gone so far as to make test bars with a Morse taper end; I think it's a good idea, and I'd like to see Sherline offer a bar like this for their machines. (useful for the lathe too!!) Once you've got the bar in place, slide the angle plate up against the bar so it just touches. You can easily see the deviation from vertical, and adjust it by eye to within 0.0005" in 6" without even breathing hard. Almost nobody does it this way, even in toolrooms, but I know, from personal experience that I can tram in a head in a couple of minutes... before the guy next to me on the other machine has even figured out how to get the DTI in the spindle and what the readings mean. The secret is to shine a bright light through the gap between the bar and the angle plate. You can instantly see the result of your adjustment and don't really have to interpret anything. (Like whether the numbers are going up or down and which is the high side or the low side and which way you're supposed to shim to change it for the better.) Give it a go, and let us know how it works for you. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 17:37:04 -0000 From: "kennethquon" Subject: Re: new 2000 mill : play in y-axis screw? >> Ken: I would bet a dollar to a hole in a donut that your mill is not defective. Most likely something has come loose in shipping. As I remember there is a round plate that is attached to the crosslide that may have come loose. It centers the leadscrew. You might want to remove the handwheel and check it. Hope that is all it is, Al Lenz. P.S. Don't underestimate the rigors of cross country shipping. I once saw a !/4 in stainless line cut about 1/3 thu by an electrical harness that had draped onto it during shipping. The harness had an armored braid and it was undamaged, but had sawed it's way into the hard line. This was on a space shuttle engine shipped from the Calif factory to the Miss test site, about 2000 miles by truck. al << Hi Al: Thanks for the suggestion! I removed the handwheel and tightened the hex nut on the thrust collar (#40280 on exploded diagram) and the hand wheel doesn't wobble with the lead screw anymore. Thanks again. -Ken ------- Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:34:16 -0500 From: "Dan Statman" Subject: Re: Milling speed/depth From: "witstock7" > I want to cut a .375 wide slot across a .375 thick bar of 12L14 > steel. I am not sure of what spindle speed to set or of a "good" > depth of cut to not overload the setup but still not spend a lot of > time making cuts which are far less than the capabilities of the > mill. Any suggestions to reduce my newbie status would be very much > appreciated. Nelson Wittstock Nelson: I do not have the answer for you regarding this particular set of parameters. But I do have a suggestion regarding cutting for newbies. Always start with a scrap or practice piece of the material you are going to use. Cut with a slower spindle rotational speed than you think is appropriate (and you may not know anything about what is appropriate, but you need to start somewhere.) Take a very light cut 0.005" or 0.010" and see what happens. After you view the results of this experiment, change one parameter (either rotational speed of the cutter or depth of cut), and observe again. Compare the two observations and adjust further from there. By doing this you will gain an incredible amount of first hand knowledge, which is what you are lacking. Pay attention to obvious signs of machine stress: the spindle motor slows dramatically under load or it is very hard to turn the handwheels to move the part past the cutter. If this is happening then adjust to lessen these stresses. If you do this slowly and methodically, you will learn the ART of machining and you will learn the limits of the particular machine you are using. I will certainly answer any questions that you have, but some things are best learned through experimentation. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com ------- Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 16:44:30 -0500 From: "John Guenther" Subject: RE: Milling speed/depth Here is what I typically do, and other people may have other speeds and feeds that work for them, but this works for me and does not strain the mill, or over heat the cutters or material. Spindle speed for a .375 cutter of about 550 RPM, depth of cut .015 - .020 per pass, feed rate of about 2.5 to 3 inches per minute. Now, to cut this slot the right way, I would use a .3125 cutter at about 600 RPM with the same feeds and depth of cut. I use Automatic Transmission Fluid for cutting oil, applied with a small acid brush. If you need an accurate .375 slot then you will need to use a smaller cutter and make a couple of passes to get the proper width. If .375+ is ok then you might get away with using a .375 cutter. John Guenther Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 09:19:49 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Re: Newbie with his New 5400A CNC |This year we are manufacturing end mill holders to hold ALL our |production tooling, so we can have all the tools loaded and all the |tooling data programmed into our software :-) Hi, Knight: Are you starting with Taig's blank arbors as the basis of your tool holders, or boring and threading raw stock? If you're not aware of Taig, Their blank screw-on arbors cost a couple of bucks and are already bored and threaded for 3/4-16. You'll have to remove about 0.090 inches from the threaded end, but that shouldn't be a problem. Then you can screw the arbor onto the headstock, drill, bore, and ream the other end of it for your end mill, and you're all set. -- Jerry ------- Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:55:14 -0000 From: "Silicon Knight " Subject: Not your daily question - gear cutting setup check :-) Hi, I am in the process of setting up a gear-cutting setup on the Sherline milling machine with rotary table and right-angle attachment. My questions are: A: How do I align it such that rotational axis of the rotary table is parallel to motion of travel on the X-axis? Do I just use a dial test indicator and chuck a piece of really accurate bar stock in there? Say, maybe a piece of drill rod, if I happen to have one? (I don't, but I can scrounge around. Any suggestions as to how you can quickly do this? B: How do I properly align the adjustable tailstock so that it is level and pointing correctly? That is the hard one that I haven't been able to figure out. C: Semi-related - anyone have handy the bolt pattern of the cup point set screws on the side of the rotaty table? I am going to make a tooling plate to hold all this setup, so I don't have to spend about 1 hour setting up the machine in the heat of competition. (the plates would have alignment pins on them that will align them reasonably to the table (some 0.002 runout over 11 inch at most). I will need the bolt pattern to do this and as of now I don't have the attachments to a pair of calipers to make measuring that possible. Terence ------- Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 20:47:42 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Boring tool Hi Alan: Boring is one of the more difficult operations to do on a mill, only because it is difficult to hit the size you want consistently. There are a number of reasons for this. The adjustment mechanism for most boring heads is fairly small so the dial graduations are wimpy and hard to see. The mechanism is off-center and makes the machine jump around. The mechanism is a long way from the cutting tool tip so errors are exaggerated, and flex of the head is exaggerated. The tool itself often needs to be long and flimsy and will flex and squeal as it cuts. There are a few ways to make it all easier. First, use a plunger type dial indicator to set the cutter offset and don't rely on the ridiculous little graduated screw...you'll get a bore on size only with luck if you rely on the screw. (BTW this is true even for big expensive boring heads. You'd be amazed how much they can be out.) Second, use the stubbiest cutter you can get away with. Third, cutter sharpness is super important for boring, as is sufficient end relief. Fourth, use the offset boring head only when you have no other choice. A plain bar where only the cutter insert is moved works far better because it is not so horribly out of balance and can be run far faster. Fifth, when you are within 0.001" of your bore size, often the last twitch can be shaved out by running the spindle faster and taking another pass without resetting the cutter tip. With regard to your specific questions about the Sherline head, I am sure you still need to snug up the locking screw when you take a pass...just don't undo it all the way when you slack it off to make the adjustment. I wouldn't bother with the graduated screw...I don't think it will help you nearly as much as a decent clock. Hope all this helps Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 23:32:04 -0000 From: "variousgroups " Subject: Using the Mill as a Measuring Device One good way to measure locations on a piece that you're asked to duplicate but that you didn't machine and for which prints are unavailable is to use the mill as a measuring devise. Take the optical center punch known as cat. No. 06524102 from MSC and place the optical element of it into the 3/8" holder of a magnetic-base indicator holder. With the mill and the magnetic base on a sheet of steel, which doesn't have to be thick, true up the the surface you want to measure and position the aforesaid optical element flush to the trued surface. Then just look through the optical element, which has a tiny, central dot surrounded by a tiny circle, and use the hand wheels and/or the digital readout to obtain your desired measurments. Mike ------- Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:08:49 -0800 From: "Jerry Stephenson" Subject: Re: Is it possible to face cut without ridges? Ken: If you have a ridge, then your mill needs tramming. If you can feel a ridge, then it is at least half a mil so if you get your mill trammed to less than a mil across the full width of the bed, you won't have a ridge. My mill isn't a sherline (it's not as nice) but I can take cuts with a 4" face mill and have no ridge. I spent about 4 hours one day getting it trammed to less than a mil over 8". Good luck, Jerry ------- Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 08:23:08 -0500 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: RE: Is it possible to face cut without ridges? It is possible to tram the mill perfectly and still get ridges due to tool and machine deflection due to cutting forces. Theoretically, you could take multiple passes at the same setting to and never even things out. Practically, it should disappear after a few passes. ------- Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 09:34:50 -0500 From: "Marshall Pharoah" Subject: RE: Is it possible to face cut without ridges? Ive have a 3/8 end mill holder and the flycutter which I use regularly. Both are capable of cutting without ridges, but I seldom take the time to tune things up to do so. Because the Sherline is of such light construction, pressure of the tool causes the whole machine to flex. Multiple cuts at the same Z axis setting can help, but some materials work harden at the surface, and some tools work better with a heavy cut. Also, the mill must be trammed almost perfectly, which is rather time consuming. I had been pondering some modifications to the mill to allow quicker adjustments, but haven't thought about it lately. One thing I have been experimenting with is with the spindle mounted on the lathe, taking a skim cut across the faceplate (which should be done periodically anyway). I then mount the spindle on the mill and bring the faceplate down to the table, checking with feeler guages as I approach the table. This doesn't buy me anymore accuracy than tramming with a DTI, but it seems to go faster. What I would like is set screw adjustments rather than using shim stock, and I may look into this someday. This is complicated by the fact that I have the horizontal mill conversion plate and everything changes periodically. My endmills are generally very true and the end mill holder seems perfect on my machine; no measureable runout with good endmills. I generally use US made mills for anything critical. I have some chinese "disposable" mills I save for work with unknown or rusty material. With the flycutter, tool deflection is a big factor, and I think it may be that the mill should be trammed slighty off to compensate, although I have never tried it. I just make multiple passes without varying Z. Also. Limiting the amount of material removed and the size of the swath helps. Marshall ------- Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2003 10:11:50 -0500 From: "Kevin P. Martin" Subject: RE: Is it possible to face cut without ridges? >From: Jerry Stephenson [mailto:jerx~xxastroknobs.com] >[...]If you can feel a ridge, then it is at least half a mil [...] Just this weekend I was playing with my depth micrometer (literally, as in it was on the table and I picked it up and started twiddling with it while talking to someone about a completely unrelated subject). I found that when I adjusted it to zero depth by feel (that is, so that I could not feel where the rod came through the base), I always got the same reading within 0.0001" (1/10 of a mil). This would lead me to conclude that I can feel a 0.0001" step (and that my depth gauge reads 0.0007 high), and it would be reasonable to assume, since I do not have any (known) super powers, that others would be able to feel this small a step as well. Although you may find the rows of lines on a machined part to be annoying, just because you can see and feel them does not necessarily mean that your mill could be better aligned. -Kevin Martin ------- Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 20:50:42 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Statman" Subject: Re: newbie question [HOW MUCH TO TIGHTEN AN ENDMILL?] From: > I am using the 3060 Milling collets in my vertical mill to hold the > various end mills I am using and would like to know how far should I > insert the end mill into the holder and how tight do I tighten the > bolt? I want to make sure it is not going to be too loose as to slip > and also not too tight as to strip the bolt. Is there a rule of thumb? Here is what I do: For setting the depth to push the endmill in to the collet there are several factors. If it is a double ended endmill then you have to make sure the draw bolt does not touch the top of the endmill or it will shatter the cutter if carbide. For my single-end endmills you want them in far enough that they are secure, but it is usually determined by the setup. Many time I need to have a long endmill protruding so that I can reach, so I set it on the low side. If there is no interference then I push it in until it just touches the drawbolt, and then come down about 1/16-1/8". Do this with the drawbolt snugged down by hand, but still allowing the endmill to slide in the collet. I tighten the draw bolt with a 1/2" wrench with the tommy bar in the spindle. I tighten it fairly tightly since I have hand the endmill slip in the collet. It takes a firm whack to release the collet, but I only loosen the drawbolt about 1 turn so it is less likely to damage the threads. There should be no danger of stripping the threads from tightening, since you will not need to crank on it that hard. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 07:31:03 -0800 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: newbie question [IS IT OKAY TO USE DOUBLE-ENDED END MILL WITH A COLLET?] > I thought it caused a problem with the inside shape of the collet > and the sharp flutes of the unused end of the mill Hi Pete: That would be true, if you were using a 1/8" endmill with a 1/8" shaft in a 1/8" collet. However, if it were a 1/8" endmill with a 1/4" shaft in a 1/4" collet, then there would be lots of clearance (i.e. the endmill flutes on the end of the endmill in the collet shouldn't be touching anything). Personally, I prefer to use the endmill holders with a set-screw, and endmills with the ground in flat. This way I can guarantee that the endmill won't suck itself into the work (which can happen when you're taking healthy cuts). I've used the collets, but mostly for holding Dremel bits and similar. I think it depends on the type of work that you do. Like most things in life, there is no single correct answer, just a bunch of choices, and you have to pick the one that's appropriate for your situation. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 17:34:42 -0000 From: "n2562001 " Subject: Re: newbie question Pete: I use a lot of double end end mills , mostly 3/16 th inch and down with the MT collets. I have ran into two problems. First the problem with flute contact as mentioned because the end mill was not inserted deep enough. Second was when the end of the draw bar made contact with the upper end of the second flute and damaged it. Both problems were resolved by drilling a .195" hole in the end of the draw bar. This allows the end mill to be seated deep enough to prevent damage and flute contact. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2003 01:41:30 +0200 From: "Isak Levinson" Subject: mill spindle aligment I have just build a fly cutter holder, and using it with a left tool. I've noticed that the tool is not exactly parallel to the table. Probably it is a spindle aligment problem. I tried to remove the alignment key and slightly rotate the headstock, but couldn't get it right. The misalignment is very small (about 0.05mm or less) and without the alignment key I can't move the headstock so accurately. I guess that this is a common issue; maybe I missed it in the instruction manual. Is there any solution to this. Thanks, Isak. ------- Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 16:07:55 -0800 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: mill spindle aligment Hi Isak: There are a couple of ways that you can deal with this. Firstly, if you're aware of which side is lower and make that be the side you use for cutting, then it doesn't really matter. The initial spindle misalignment is typically caused due to the weight of the motor being on one side (You'll probably find that the fly cutter cuts slightly deeper on the right side than on the left side). If you leave the key in place, but apply upwards pressure on the spindle as you tighten the allen bolt, you may be able to move things enough to correct the problem. I found I was able to do this with my lathe to virtually remove any taper (only 0.0004 in 6 inches). You could also put a shim on one side between the base of the mill and the upright. This may tilt the Z axis slightly off of square, but you can get the spindle parallel to the bed (or close to it). With the lopsided weight distribution, you'll find that the vertical axis is slightly tilted anyways. I eventually want to modify my mill to be something like this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/files/sherline%20z%20axis.JPG so that the motor is behind the Z-axis. I think that it should be possible to do this in such a way that the tilting functionality can be preserved too, but since I haven't done it yet, I don't know. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2003 15:45:42 -0000 From: "tatkinsonavon" Subject: Spindle alignment Please note that a fly-cutter may cut on the back just because it isn't all that rigid and rides up a bit on the first cut. Secondly, don't hesitate to file or grind a smidgeon off of the alignment key. I had to do this on my lathe to get the kind of minimal taper Dave refers to. Out of the box it had a runout of .007 I haven't had to touch it in eight years. I think modifying the motor to the back is a peachy idea, especially for us old AC owners! Tracy ------- Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 13:45:12 -0000 From: "tatkinsonavon" Subject: End Mill Holders in general Here, for what it may be worth is a recent experience with an endmill holder: I've had a 3/8" model for years and use it all the time. There came a need for a 1/4" model and so bought a new one from Sherline. It refused to screw onto the mill spindle. I thought maybe they had send a metric thread, but after carefully checking with a screw gauge is was the correct 3/4-16. Tried it on the lathe - it went on easily!!! Everthing seemed correct, clean and no serious burrs or irregularity on either thread surface, so, under the Atkinson philosophy of "If it doesn't fit, FORCE it!" I screwed her on. Whatever it was worked itself free and after three or four repeat screwing and unscrewing it worked perfectly. I admit I did get a bit nervous when it got really stiff about halfway on, however! ------- NOTE TO FILE: ARRRRRGH!!!!!!! NOT RECOMMENDED. If something bought new is defective, return it to the company. Or here use a bent wire cleaning device or spray lube with cotton swab (or proper tap as a final resort if necessary) to clean out the interior thread of the end-mill holder. THE MACHINE'S SPINDLE IS NOT A TAP OR CLEANING DEVICE. Never force a threaded part. ------- Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 19:45:57 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: End Mill Holders in general Hi T Atkinson: You want to be REALLY careful forcing things onto the Sherline spindle. The spindle is not hardened...it is Leadloy I believe, and so is the endmill holder. They can seize together in a heartbeat, and then you'll have to machine the endmill holder off the spindle and recut the thread. If you want to thread a stiff assembly together, always put on some Never-Seez or at least a bit of grease first. This is a good general rule for any assembly. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2003 19:59:56 -0000 From: "tatkinsonavon" Subject: Re: Endmills in General Well, thanks for the note, Marcus. I knew that the spindle threads are soft - the wear tells you that. I did not know they are as soft as leadloy, however. This is why I worried about the short threads on the Bison 3" cuck I bought. I have determined to insert a sleeve and re-thread with a tap using the existing threads to guide it. I can be quite gutsy when required! Maybe it's good to have a spare spindle or two on hand. I always use oil on the threads of machines, and often grease (it depends on what comes to hand). I' must say there are times when the Sherline chucks can be stubborn, but I haven't yet had to machine one of them off, yet. A friend, however, forgot his motor feed and it did an excellent job of turning off the whole spindle thread (he had a collet in it at the time). The anti-freeze lubes are so messy I avoid them except outdoors where rust is the problem. Tracy Atkinson Avon CT ------- Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 19:14:54 -0000 From: "jeastwoodlm" Subject: Re: Aluminum Milling Tips anyone? --- In sherlinex~xxyahoogroups.com, "frazzxr" wrote: > Can anyone give me any tips on milling aluminum stock: > 1. Recommended grade 2000 5000 etc > 2. Tool (3 flute 2 flute) > 3. Tool make (carbide, hss) > 4. Recommended speed for cutting. > Any help appreciated. -Frazz Choose the type of Al that makes sense for what you are building. The Sherline mill should be able to handle any type of Al. I generally use 6061. I use both 2 and 4 flute cutters with no problem. I always use HSS, not owning any carbide mills. Cutting speed also varies according to the application. I generally mill off about .020" at a time, not being in a hurry nor wanting to stress anything. I don't have an RPM indicator, but I tend to run the mill at about 1/2 to 2/3 speed for most milling. Don't forget to mill in the "correct" direction; I find climb milling to be problematic on the Sherline, so make sure you feed in the opposite direction to cutter rotation. For more info search on "climb milling" in the archives. ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:33:40 +0200 From: "Isak Levinson" Subject: carbide boring tool Is it possible to use 7635 carbide inserted boring tool with the 3054 boring head? Thanks. ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:00:38 -0000 From: "Jim Knighton" Subject: Re: carbide boring tool Since the inserted boring tool is about 6" long, it wouldn't be a good idea to do this in stock form. You can cut the boring tool to a shorter length and that would probably fit. Personally, I'm not inclined to do this. I use my inserted boring tool only in the 3/8" round lathe tools holders. I have a set of non-Sherline 3/8" shank carbide tipped boring bars of varying length that I use with the boring head. The carbide tipped cutters work well and are relatively inexpensive. Sherline maintains that the shanks on the "industry standard" 3/8" sets are too long for use with the boring head. So far, I've not had a problem with the unmodified length. I just try to use the shortest bar possible for the task at hand. I hope this helps. Jim Knighton ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 13:07:23 -0000 From: "andrewyslee" Subject: exposed y-axis leadscrew Anyone know why such a great company like Sherline which makes such fine machines can end up with a mill which has its y-axis leadscrew so exposed to falling chips? What will be the effect on the durability of the mill if no care is taken to keep the chips (wood, plastic, aluminium) off the leadscrew and ways? Other than expensive bellows, what are the methods that list members are taking to address this little problem? Thanks Andres ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 08:11:21 -0500 From: "Daniel J. Statman" Subject: Re: exposed y-axis leadscrew Paper towels and a shop-vac. I rarely move the y-axis on my mill since most of my items are cut with the rotary table and x-axis movements only. I have never had a problem with the chips affecting performance. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com ------- Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 09:06:17 -0500 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: exposed y-axis leadscrew Hi, Andres: For Bellows, you might want to try: http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_search.php?cri teria=bellows They're twice as wide as you need, but you should be able to cut them down to size. Cost is about $6.00 USD + shipping & handling. Another alternative is to make your own - simply take a piece of light card stock, score it every half inch or so, fold into a fanfold, and use double sided tape to hold it to the machine. I've done this; it works pretty well. Jerry ------- Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 10:58:45 EST From: tmwade4x~xxaol.com Subject: Cutting a groove... I have a block of cast iron, roughly half a cube, which measures about 2 x 2 x 1. I need to cut a groove across the short side with a 9/16 radius. This is bigger than any carbide bit I can find, but much smaller than my boring bar. Any thoughts on how to cut a 9/16" radius? Largest mill bit I've got is a 7/16" diameter... Tom Wade Hope, Indiana ------- Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 08:57:44 -0800 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Cutting a groove... You could do it with a rotary table. You should be able to use the boring head for the mill. I think it will work down to about 1/4". http://www.sherline.com/3054pg.htm How wide do you need the groove? Now when you say you need a groove with a 9/16 radius, are you saying you need a circular groove? Or are you saying you need a straight groove with a 9/16" width? If the latter, then you can (and probably should) use a smaller cutter and make several passes. This will give a better finish, and you'll have much better control over the width. Trying to cut a slot in a single pass means that one side of the slot is being "climb" milled and the other side is being cut "regularly". Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 00:44:00 EST From: tmwade4x~xxaol.com Subject: Cutting a groove... > Now when you say you need a groove with a 9/16 radius, are you > saying you need a circular groove? Or are you saying you need > a straight groove with a 9/16" width? I need a straight groove, one inch long, one eighth inch deep, and a 9/16 radius. This would be much like the ditch down the middle of a road, perhaps. So that a 1 1/8 rod would lay flat in this groove Tom Wade ------- Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:07:01 -0800 From: Keith Green Subject: Re: Cutting a groove... Find something that's 1.125 to use as a guage and grind a HSS endmill to that radius. Alternative is to flycut it vertically with a bit sticking out 9/16 from the center of a boring bar, or maybe horizontally with said bit ground to 9/16 rad. (may chatter), or of course with the boring head. keith. ------- Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 22:14:36 -0800 From: Randy Gordon-Gilmore Subject: Re: Cutting a groove... 4/2/03, Tom wrote: >I need a straight groove, one inch long, one eigth inch deep, and a 9/16 >radius. This would be much like the ditch down the middle of a road, >perhaps. So that a 1 1/8 rod would lay flat in this groove Is your 7/16" cutter a ball-end? If so, you can "nibble" the groove. Set the block with the face you want to groove upwards. Call the centerline of the block x=0. Touch the end of the tool on the block and call that z=0. Make cutting passes in the Y direction with the following X and Z coordinates: X= 0.0000 Z= -0.1250 X= +/-0.0419 Z= -0.1224 X= +/-0.0832 Z= -0.1148 X= +/-0.1232 Z= -0.1022 X= +/-0.1614 Z= -0.0848 X= +/-0.1972 Z= -0.0628 This will give you your groove with 1 or 2 thou scallops. If your cutter is flat-end, set the block up on its side and transpose the axes accordingly. If this is not too clear I can put a sketch in the photos area. Best regards, Randy Gordon-Gilmore ------- Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 19:18:41 -0000 From: "Glen Reeser" Subject: Re: Cutting a groove... I would be tempted to clamp the piece against a piece of waste stock and bore a hole through both pieces. Would that be cheating? Glen Reeser ------- Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 19:32:41 -0800 From: "S or J" Subject: Re: Cutting a groove... >I would be tempted to clamp the piece against a piece of waste stock >and bore a hole through both pieces. Would that be cheating? Glen Reeser No, that would be resourceful. Cheating is where you block up a project for milling on a random piece of scrap plywood from your woodworking area and machine a piece of metal good enough to perfectly serve an intended purpose, while saying (loudly) that looks about right, and is. Whoops, I mislaid the expensive dial test indicator and will have to use that old warped wooden ruler again. Steve Thunder Bay, Ontario ------- Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 23:55:36 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Cutting a groove... > I would be tempted to clamp the piece against a piece of waste stock > and bore a hole through both pieces. Would that be cheating? I hope not, That is what I have done to make round grooves in brass. Sweat solder two pieces together, drill or bore on the join line and you not only have a grooved piece you get two for one. John in the high desert of California ------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 00:37:19 EST From: catboat15x~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Re: Cutting a groove... > Whoops, I mislaid the expensive dial test indicator and will have to > use that old warped wooden ruler again. I always keep a few precision popsicle sticks on hand for those jobs where I have to keep close tolerances. Make wonderful parallels for the milling vice. John in the high desert of California 12 inch Atlas Mini Mill ------- Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 03:50:57 -0600 From: "Scott Peterson" Subject: Re: Re: Cutting a groove... From: "S or J" > >I would be tempted to clamp the piece against a piece of waste stock > >and bore a hole through both pieces. Would that be cheating? > >Glen Reeser > No, that would be resourceful. Cheating is where you block up > a project for milling on a random piece of scrap plywood from > your woodworking area and machine a piece of metal good enough > to perfectly serve an intended purpose, while saying (loudly) > that looks about right, and is. Whoops, I mislaid the expensive dial > test indicator and will have to use that old warped wooden ruler again. > Steve Thunder Bay, Ontario Now...THAT'S using the old Mk IX Eyeball! Sure....some folks like the new Mk X, but I've had the other so long.... ------- Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2003 20:05:34 -0800 From: Mark Subject: Trying to make a cube on my 2000 mill Well, a rectangular prism with a pocket.... Had a lot of trouble with this, and the bottom line is - don't trust anything if angles have to be 90 degrees. 1. Milling vise - thought I'd use one side as a reference. This was ok, but I had to skim the entire side, to make it FLAT. Got lucky, the fixed jaw was orthogonal to the flattened side. Part b: The top surface of the vise wasn't parallel to the bottom. Skimmed that down, as well. Part c: The fixed jaw wasn't square with the top vise surface. Shimmed that with .002 at the top, above the screws. Hurray, I can now use the vise as a reference for square corners... 2. I long ago put paper between the various surfaces of the frame, to increase the friction enough to take a 10 thou cut in Al. with a 3/8 end mill, without rotating the whole head either in Z or in X. I was still getting some creep, which turned out to be the headstock/ spindle to Z coupling. The key-bar was about 2 thou shy in one side, and about 3 thou shy in the spindle. Used a 3/16 toolbit ( .1875, rather than the .185 from Sherline), plus a 2 thou spacer in the spindle slot, and it's rock solid and SQUARE. 3. Took the handwheels off my steppers in X and Y - haven't been using them much, and a 3 hour job got messed up by an object that sort of danced across the bench and wedged itself under the spinner on X - lost steps, and couldn't tolerate the 1/8 inch displacement of the remaining cuts. 4. Discovered that chips building up in a 1-inch square cavity will be too much for a 1/4 inch endmill, at about 1/2 inch depth. I admit that I should have been doing climbing cuts, but not sure if it would have helped. Cutter grabbed and made about a 20 thou excursion into the side of the cavity, so I pull out the vac every 10 minutes or so, just to make sure it doesn't happen again. So, I've got one acceptable part, from 4 attempts. On the plus side, the mill is wonderfully trammed, it makes much less fuss than it used to (play between the headstock and Z?), and setup is so much easier, now that I know what's square and what isn't. I guess I'll learn the same way how often to adjust the gibs, to check backlash, and to replace leadscrews etc.... mark ------- Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 09:13:01 -0800 From: "Marcus & Eva" Subject: Re: Trying to make a cube on my 2000 mill Hi Mark: I hear you and understand only too well, having fought the same problems all my toolmaking life. Making something accurately square is a major challenge; even with high end equipment. I've got super precision grinding vises and granite angle plates, and it's still a challenge if I need to get within tenths. Your comments about "don't trust anything" are exactly what it takes...in my case an errant bit of grit, a barely perceptible bur or a stray felt pen mark are enough to throw things in the toilet. I'll be interested to see how square your newly squared vise still is next time you take it off and then put it back on the mill. On the climb cutting process...be very wary if you've got any backlash at all. Driving into inside corners is the major danger...the cutter can snatch into the corner and will trash everything in sight. Under CNC control, you'll usually leave a brown stain somewhere before you get the machine turned off. I'd bite the bitter pill and conventional cut on something as small as a Sherline. As you discovered, keeping the chips out is often most of the battle. Even high pressure coolant on my machine won't always do it. Anyway... you now have one dead-nuts precision cube. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 08:48:11 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Mill runout From: "Geert De Pecker" > As I had some problems in the past with the mill shaking > badly when center drilling or downfeeding a mill, even in > alu or brass, I took the time to check the runout on the > mill spindle. I did some measurements and took some photos > I've put on my website: http://users.skynet.be/fa336378/index.html. > I would appreciate any comments. Geert Hi Geert: I had a look at your pictures, and a number of things spring to mind: First, the runout that you are getting with the endmill in the endmill holder is a result of a number of factors; the most important being tolerance buildup. The clearance between the bore in the endmill holder and the shank of the endmill that allows you to put the two parts together also means that tightening the setscrew will push the endmill sideways. Second, the Jacobs chuck will always have runout...you can't get around that limitation...even with a very expensive chuck. To get a tool to run repeatably with very good concentricity, is an expensive undertaking... even on my Haas CNC the tools run out somewhat, and this is with precision grade collets in precision ground collet holders in a hardened and precision ground spindle. One of my collet holders with a set of collets costs almost as much as your whole machine, and my tool concentricity is no better than about 1/2 of yours. So don't be too discouraged about what you've found.it's actually pretty good. Another comment regarding spindles and their measurement...what's important is not so much whether they run out, but rather, whether the runout is a consequence of bad bearings or bad bearing setup. If the bearings are bad, the runout will not always be in the same place on the spindle... the easy way to check, is to mark the high spot with a felt marker, and then see if it changes position when you spin the spindle a number of turns. If it does, you have bearing problems...if not, you simply have features on the spindle that are not concentric with its axis of rotation. Another contributor commented that you should check the face of the spindle for runout...this is good advice, and as an addition to that comment, if it does run out, you can simply turn it concentric without detriment to the spindle. You can also do this to the internal taper. On the other hand, if the spindle threads are cut "drunkenly", you have a bigger problem that is hard to correct without replacing the spindle. This would be a defect in manufacture unless you've really abused the spindle, and Sherline would likely replace it for you at no charge. Going back to the shaking you are getting...lack of concentricity of the tool point can do this too...often the culprit turns out to be incorrectly ground tools. I have received some that were poor even when brand new...so it's not just resharpened tools that you need to be suspicious of. You commented on shaking problems when plunging with an endmill...this is common even on much heavier mills than the Sherline. The end of an endmill is not self centering...even center cutting endmills. The side forces generated by the penetration of the endmill tend to make the whole head oscillate...a solution is to reduce these forces by pre- drilling to remove most of the material. While I'm on the subject...plunging with an endmill is one of the most dangerous things you can do with this type of cutter, and is not recommended (at least not by me). If you need a flat bottomed hole, a far better way is with a flat bottomed drill or a counterbore. The problem is when the side flutes of an endmill grab in the sides of the developing hole, they can cause a spectacular crash. Center drills cause a different set of problems...they have very little relief, so they rub badly if they are even a little bit dull. If they also run out, they will act like a crankshaft in a car engine...so eliminating or at least minimising the runout on a centerdrill is more important than with a twist drill which is intrinsically more flexible, and cuts a hole that is bigger than the drill and is parallel walled. This means there's a bit more room for some wiggle with a twist drill. Center drills work best when chucked in a good collet...they don't work nearly as well when chucked in a drill chuck...but everybody (including me) does it anyway. If I need a really good hole, I bite the bitter pill and take the time to chuck the center drill properly. I also single point bore the hole almost to size, and then ream or hone the bore, depending on what I hope to achieve from the hole. Hope this all helps. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:21:15 -0000 From: "geertdepecker" Subject: Re: Mill runout Marcus, thanks a lot for your answer. It certainly made some things clear which didn't cross my mind (like dull center drill's). It is indeed not a problem when I predrill and mill afterwards. It now became clear that probably my biggest problem are dull centers. Again thanks, I learned a lot, Geert ------- Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 07:16:48 -0700 From: David Eiman Subject: Using Mill to Bevel Laminate I have a project that turned out to be more difficult than it seemed when buying materials. (Not the first time. Don't laugh.) It is a pickguard for an electric guitar in an oval shape. I cut it out, but now need to bevel the edge 45 degrees. The material is about 3/32" thick with a black layer between a white and white pearl. Slightly soft and easy to cut. I am thinking of setting up the mill like a shaper with either a fence or a couple of pins on either side of the spindle and a simple hold down that will allow a steady hand feed. An alternative is to make a template and use a router with a pilot. Has anyone used the mill for edge finishing in this manner? Is this a practical method? I have only used the mill for metal up to this point, but envision the cutter just behind the table with the fence at the back of the table. Is this worth pursuing or should I stick to conventional methods. I hate to make a template for a one off production. David Eiman Fresno, California ------- Date: Mon, 5 May 2003 13:56:58 -0700 From: "Brown, Mark A (SPO)" Subject: RE: Re: Too much drill bit information jeastwoodlm [mailto:jeastwoox~xxetec.com] wrote: >>> I strongly recommend getting a set that's called "screw machine" length; these are shorter than standard "jobber" length and therefore much more usable (espically on the mill). When drilling on the mill with standard length drill bits you'll often run out of Z room and have to turn the head sideways to get at your work piece. While you're at it, go ahead and order a set of screw machine length letter size (A-Z) too, I find I use these frequently. I'd avoid the very cheapest imported sets, since I've heard horror stories about very dull, inaccurate, and poor quality in such. <<< At the sake of recommending a bad practice due to ignorance here is what I do when I have a drill/reamer that is too long to fit between the mill and the work using the drill chuck. I use the three jaw chuck as it spins right on the mill spindle, is shorter than the drill chuck, and if needed allows some of the drill to be up in the body of the mill. I just make sure the chuck is grasping the shank of the drill and not the cutting flutes (or whatever they're called). ------- Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 02:48:44 -0000 From: "variousgroups" Subject: End Mill Set Screw is Dangerous That 10-32 set screw on Sherline's end mill holders can work itself loose very easily during a milling session. If it does -- and I've had the experience several times (you think you've tightened the set screw enough, only to find that tool chatter has overcome the applied torque) -- you immediately lose control over the depth of your cut, because your mill will now slide inside the end mill holder. If you do not notice the loose mill, it can bite against material and jam, and could, under the right combination of circumstances, lead to some personal injury, probably just a cut finger, but still. In any event, I have replaced the set screws in my two end mill holders, each with a 10-32 nylon-patch set screw made in the USA by Camcar. Nylon-patch set screws have a small nylon button on the side, midway along the threads, which inhibits the set screw from working itself loose. They are expensive little buggers and are only sold by the hundred. If anybody wants some of my 90 or so extras, they are welcome to 'em. Just send me a buck in a self addressed stamped envelope and I'll send you back three 10-32 nylon patch set screws, until I run out. Then I'll send you your dollar back, and I'll post an "out of set screws" note here for the group. Goes to Gallbuster, P.O. Box 18653, Washington, DC 20036. Best, Mike PS You can also order a hundred yourself from MSC, Cat. No. 67269647. Will cost you about $30 including S&H. ------- Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 08:32:04 -0500 From: "Nance, Tom" Subject: RE: End Mill Set Screw is Dangerous Oh good grief, guys. Remember P. T. Barnum's quote: "There's a sucker born every minute." Ask yourself how many times your endmill has ever come loose. It don't happen. And I don't appreciate someone using this forum to peddle his snake oil. You'll notice that he didn't use his name, that should be enough to put a wise man off. Tom Nance Corpus Christi, TX ------- Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 14:59:19 -0000 From: "variousgroups" Subject: Re: End Mill Set Screw is Dangerous In reply to Mr. Nance, who evidently thinks I'm looking to get rich by peddling nylon-patch set screws, please note that I provided the MSC catalog number of the 10-32 set screws. The 800 number for MSC is 1-800-645-7270. Mr. Nance, if he wishes, may buy 100 of the screws, for about $30 including the shipping and handling, for himself, just as I did. As for the end mill slipping because that set screw can work itself loose, such events, while not everyday, do indeed occur, as other members of the group realize, and are indeed better forestalled, for the reasons given. Otherwise, Sherline makes an excellent little mill. Best, Mike ------- Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 11:45:29 -0400 From: RichD Subject: Re: End Mill Set Screw is Dangerous Mike, are you seating the set screw on the flat ground into the endmill shank? If not, seating it onto a hard rounded surface does not work very well. Besides, the flat is intended for full size mill holders that use a 3/8 fine thread set screw with a flat end that completely fills the flat. Even this sometimes slips a little. Grinding a matching flat for a 10-32 setscrew will get you a more secure seating ensuring it won't slip out even if it loosens a little. RichD ------- Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 16:29:39 -0000 From: "variousgroups" Subject: Re: End Mill Set Screw is Dangerous Dear Rich -- Sure, I'm setting it on the flat. And, most of the time, slipping doesn't occur. However, I have had it happen at least twice in the past few months, which was enough for me to want to reduce the incidence. I believe that it is most likely to occur during a long session, when you are attending to many details and simply don't notice that the set screw has worked itself loose. Also, some mills don't come with flats. For example, I recently needed to use a 5/16" ball end mill (and bought a Sherline 5/16" end mill holder for it), and that ball end mill has no flat. Other types of set screws that may offer improved holding are the half-dog point and the cone point, on pages 1957-1959 of the MSC catalog (www.mscdirect.com), and the knurl point on pages 1952-1957. Grinding a flat end on an 10-32 set screw is basically making a home- made half-dog. I do not believe that any of these types will resist loosening nearly as well as the nylon-patch. Best, Mike ------- Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 21:00:42 -0000 From: "gjertz" Subject: Re: End Mill Set Screw is Dangerous For what it is worth- I have NEVER EVER had a problem as stated. If I did I would just use a little 242 locktite on the screw thread same as I do on the lathe tool holders.(saves a buck):) ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:12:36 -0000 From: "tomin130" Subject: Simple, safe, cheap fix for end mill set screw Buy 2 10-32 x 1/4" socket set screws (not from me!!!!). Cut/grind both to 3/16", lock the end mill with one, lock the first with the second. Done. Tom ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 12:45:32 -0500 From: Ken Grunke Subject: Re: Simple, safe, cheap fix for end mill set screw > Buy 2 10-32 x 1/4" socket set screws (not from me!!!!). Cut/grind > both to 3/16", lock the end mill with one, lock the first with the > second. Done. Until you want to change cutters, then you have to remove the second screw to loosen the first. Kind of a pain in the butt! If I had the Sherline end mill holder I'd drill and retap for a bigger screw. I made my own holder for 3/8" endmills using a 1/4--28 setscrew, I can crank down pretty hard on that to make sure it's tight. One very important thing to consider is how the setscrew is tightened on the endmill's shank. I asked for advice about this on rec.crafts.metalworking recently, and got the scoop. On a standard helical endmill, there is a tendency for it to be pulled into the work. So, with the setscrew almost tight on the endmill shank's flat section, just loose enough to slide the endmill up and down, pull it out until it stops at the top of the shank's flat THEN tighten the setscrew. If Mike's nylon patch screw is not tightened this way, the end mill may still come loose! Those who still have the original setscrew should try this, it may solve the problem without the new screw. be safe, Ken Grunke http://www.token.crwoodturner.com/shop/ ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 14:17:17 -0400 From: "Statman Designs, LLC" Subject: Re: Making the handwheels easier to turn on a 5400? From: "benhirashima" > hi all. i'm new to the group, and i recently purchased a 5400 mill. > i've been having a lot of fun with it, but one thing that is bugging > me is how hard it is to turn the x axis handwheel. i've actually > broken a sweat turning the wheel on long cuts. maybe i'm just a wuss, > but can anyone tell me how to loosen it up a bit? i tried lubricating > the slides and leadscrew with triflow, but that only helped a tiny > bit. i realize that loosening it might cost me some accuracy, but the > trade off is worth it to me. my y axis handwheel moves smoothly and > easily, and i'd like the x axis to be like that. do i need to fuss > with the gib or something? sorry if the manual already describes how > to do this, but i read it through and wasn't able to get a clear > picture of how to do this. thanks, ben Ben, yes, you need to "fuss with the gib." Read the manual again on how to adjust the gib and you will be fine. Basically there is a set screw that holds an "L" shaped piece of metal. The other end of the "L" is inserted into the gib. By loosening the set screw and then forcing the gib out a bit. This can be sometimes difficult, but it can be pushed out with the T-handled hex wrench from the back side of the gib. Set the gib to whatever tightness you are comfortable with. Daniel J. Statman, Statman Designs www.statmandesigns.com dan.statmanx~xxrennlist.com -------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 22:38:23 -0000 From: "benhirashima" Subject: Re: Making the handwheels easier to turn on a 5400? ok, i finally figured out how to work the gib adjustment. the instructions were not very helpful. i found the setscrew on the back of the table that holds the gib locking pin in place (bright steel pin under left side of table). i loosened the setscrew, then i had to tap the end of the gib underneath the right side of the table with a hammer and a hex wrench to get it to come out. then i lightly pushed the gib back in until i got the right amount of drag on the handwheel, then i retightened the setscrew. hopefully these instructions will help any other newbies out there :) thanks for the help, guys. ------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:27:29 -0000 From: "benhirashima" Subject: Using the mill as a lathe? is it possible to attach a 3 or 4 jaw chuck to the spindle, and hold a lathe tool bit in a mill vise to turn a part on the mill? this would obviously be more limited than a real lathe, but i can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work. cheers, ben ------- Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:40:00 -0700 From: "Orrin Iseminger" Subject: Re: Using the mill as a lathe? I think a more satisfactory approach would be to mount large items on a rotary table and use a conventional end mill for cutting. Chatter wouldn't be a problem, that way. One of our Aussie friends has posted a nice series of pictures on his Web site, showing his ingenious solution to turning large parts on a Sherline. Does anyone out there remember the URL? Orrin ------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 06:09:20 -0700 From: "Jamey Battermann" Subject: Re: Using the mill as a lathe? Ben, I have set a disk of aluminum I wanted to turn on a 1/4" arbor and placed it in the 1/4" collet on my 5400 mill. I then created a tool post to hold a lathe bit and mounted that to the cross slide. It worked like a charm. Jamey ------- Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:42:04 -0000 From: "mendoje1" Subject: Re: Using the mill as a lathe? Not a Sherline, but here's an example of a Rockwell horizontal mill doing double duty as a lathe, over at Yahoo group "millingmachines": http://groups.yahoo.com/group/millingmachines/files/Rockwell% 20Milling%20Machines/Klaus%2021-120%20Horizontal%20Mill/ Jeff ------- Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:08:11 -0700 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: mill upgrade? From: Scott Meyer [mailto:baldysmx~xxyahoo.com] > Front to back is great, but right to left is off. On my 5400, I put some aluminum foil shims under one side of where the base of the column joins the table to correct this. I think most of the skew is caused by the weight of the spindle motor pushing everything down on one side only. I eventually plan on mounting the motor behind the column. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:13:17 -0400 From: "John Guenther" Subject: RE: mill upgrade? There is most likely enough play in the 4 bolts that hold the column to the base block that you can take .003 out by loosening a 3 of those bolts and tapping the top of the column gently in the proper direction. I had to do this to mine when I took the column off to put a spacer under it for my CNC conversion. John Guenther 'Ye Olde Pen Maker' Sterling, Virginia ------- Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:52:49 -0500 From: "Nance, Tom" Subject: RE: mill upgrade? This may sound stupid to many of you and I imagine that there are better ways to do this, but that has never stopped me from making a fool of myself before, so here goes. I have a simple test that I use to see if my mill head is aligned with the table. I put a piece of scrap material in the mill vise and mount a flycutter in the spindle. I then cut the piece with the flycutter in such a way that the cutter passes over the work twice. That is, it cuts the piece in the normal way but then I continue cranking the handwheel so that the cutter passes over the work again as it sweeps thru the backside of its arc. If the mill is in alignment, it should just pass over the work or, at most, just cut .001 or so into the piece due to the deflection of the cutter during the first pass. If it cuts more than a few thousandths on the backside of the pass, it means that the mill colunm needs shimming. I do the same procedure in all four directions - left, right, forward and backward. The idea is that if the spindle is not exactly perpendicular to the table, then the circle swept out by the flycutter will not be parallel to the table. The effect of a non-parallel circle is that one or more quadrants of the circle will be lower - and thus cut deeper - than the other quadrants. Tom Nance Corpus Christi, TX ------- Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:21:59 -0000 From: "mmurray701" Subject: Re: mill upgrade? Tom, I use the exact same idea. Works fine. You can actually measure how close you are using this method as well. Just make a pass in both directions as you said, then come back to the middle. The fly cutter should be just touching the surface on one side, but not on the other. Slowly scew the Z axis down until the second side leaves a mark. This is how far your off. Fairly simple but it works decent. I've found if you take your time you can get it much less than a thousandth off, but I prefer a flycutter finish from it cutting on one side only. I usually leave it about half a thousandth off on the diameter of a flycutter. Mark ------- Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:41:58 -0000 From: "John F. Pautz" Subject: Re: 2000 mill column interference > Has anyone heard of cutting the bottom of the 2000 mill z-axis column. > This tends to get in the way, and it looks like there is about 3/8" of > it extending below the screws and the structure that it is screwed to. I had this same problem with my 2000 mill, and looking at the movable clamping disk that the z-axis way is attached to, I just removed all the screws, turned the disk 180 degrees and reassembled. That corrected the problem. John Pautz ------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:29:53 -0700 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: Z Axis rotation I flipped the rotary column adjustment on my model 2000 mill to get better clearance between the milling table top and the column. Everything worked out as folks on either this list or on the Sherline list mentioned. However, I found that, if you lowered the Z-Axis down towards the milling table as far as it would go, the saddle nut was able to come off of the leadscrew. Definitely NOT what you'd want. I can think of drilling and tapping the bottom end of the leadscrew, and bolting a washer onto the end of the leadscrew to prevent the saddle nut from coming off. Has anyone who's rotated the Part #3517 (moveable clamp ring) to get better clearance made this modification to the leadscrew? If so, how did the modification work out? Can anyone offer a better solution? Thanks, -- Jerry ------- Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:00:14 -0400 From: "Kevin Martin" Subject: RE: Re: Z Axis rotation I bought the non-CNC model 2000 when it was fairly new. The Z column was mounted "high" on the Z side tilt plate. However, you could not lower the head enough to do side milling at table height. I later got (I believe it was a freebie from Sherline to early model 2000 buyers) a solution to this, which was essentially an extension bar which holds the Z feed nut above the top of the head, and the information on filing the back of the column to widen the land and permit reversed mounting. This combined package allowed the head to travel lower relative to the table, but I found the lead nut mounting added spring (and thus backlash) to the Z motion. Now to the relevance to this thread... Part of the head-lowering package was instructions to cut about 3/4" off the Z leadscrew so it did not interfere with the Z side tilt plate when the column was mounted "low" on the plate. It struck me that this irreversable step would preclude converting the mill back to its original "high" head mounting without a loss of some Z motion. So I took the home-grown step of leaving the Z screw intact, and filing/grinding a notch in the front surface of the tilt plate to give the tip of the leadscrew clearance when mounted "low". This seemed to be tough going; perhaps this part is hardened or all my files were dull at the time, but it worked, so now I can run my 8-way column set up three ways (in order of highest reach to lowest): High with the regular feed nut, high with the feed nut extension, low with the feed nut extension. I eventually bought a fixed column base (a la model 5400) and modified my table to accept it (photos to follow in my copious spare time) and I now only use the 8-way column and/or lead nut extension when required by the job. -Kevin Martin ------- Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 10:28:29 -0400 From: "JERRY G" Subject: Re: Re: Z Axis rotation Kevin: Who says you have do to side milling directly with the work on the table? Sherline sells a very nice Mill Tooling Plate part # 3560 that is 1/2" thick. If you need 1", just stack up two and use longer screws. The milling machine is the only machine that can be used to replicate itself. Regards, Jerry G ------- Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 14:03:19 -0400 From: "Kevin Martin" Subject: RE: Re: Z Axis rotation I never said you *had* to do side milling directly on the table. This was Sherline's reasoning for the upgrade kit, not mine. Besides, mill tooling plates cost a non-zero amount of money so I do not really want to pay for more than the one I already have. For that matter, once you have the tooling plate installed, you have lost your T-slots, and you must then custom-machine a greater fraction of your work holding when it turns out the default hole pattern in the tooling plate is inappropriate. -Kevin ------- Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2003 18:59:27 -0000 From: "Antonius J.M. Groothuizen" Subject: Long: 2000 Mill Moveable Clamping Ring Jerry: I contacted Craig at Sherline, (as did others) and received the following information: An early complaint on the 2000 was that in the standard configuration it was not possible to bring a mill all the way down to the table. To solve that we added both the travel extension which relocates where the saddle nut attaches to the saddle and also reversed the rotating portion of the column end to get the bottom of the column lower. Rotating the round base to attach the column in the "normal" way is certainly an option for those who want more clearance and don't need to get a small cutter down close to the table. Using the column extension does require a shorter leadscrew (hence the shorter Z-axis travel quoted in the stats), so you do have to watch the end of the travel if you turn the round base over and use it the other way. I suppose if you were only going to use it that way you could buy a Z- axis leadscrew from a 5400 which is longer and swap it out. The reason there is a different part number for the 2000 Z-axis leadscrew is only because of the shorter length. If you reverse the ring to get more clearance you can also use the standard Z-axis leadscrew for the 5000/5400 mills, which is P/N 45010/45160 to gain back the travel originally lost due to the shortened leadscrew, although this may not be a factor since your problem is clearance, not travel. The 2000 leadscrew is shortened and the ring reversed in order to provide the ability to mill all the way down to the table with small cutters. This does also have the result of limiting travel at the upper end and clearance below. If reversing the circular clamp ring doesn't give you the clearance you need, another answer might be just to use the 1297 headstock spacer block as is used on the 5400 mill to get more throat distance. This may allow the bottom of the column to clear your setup without having to modify the column. > I was wondering why someone might want to do this and > started playing. I put the rotary table on top of the > table and added the 4 Jaw chuck. This combination does > not clear the column. The rotary and tilting angle > tables combination have only a 3/4" clearance for > material / clamping. As these clearances are too low > for much of the machining I'm planning I've been thinking > about options. The ones that come to mind are: > 1. Rotate the moveable clamping ring 180 deg as noted > above to get another 1/2". This still would not be enough > for most of the jobs I have planned. > 2. Add a second Column Spacer and Extension bolt (56770, > 56110). Thiswill add another 2" of clearance, enough > for almost all anticipated jobs, but I'm wondering about > the resulting stability of the column. A: This is the best option. If you are using the machine properly the additional column block should not create any significant rigidity problems. > 3. Machine a new 6" column base that extends beyond, and is bolted > to the current mill base. Add diagonal supports to increase the > column's stability. A: You're welcome to try this, but I think it's a bit of overkill. Try the column block extension first. Tony ------- Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2003 12:56:05 -0700 From: "David Goodfellow" Subject: RE: Re: Z Axis rotation I would never mount a workpiece directly to the table. I always use a tooling plate or a vise, reason being, I'm not all that confident in my Z axis -- especially under CNC. I have made programming errors that have dropped a cutter as much as 1/4" below the workpiece (not recently, thank goodness). As far as the tooling plate's hole pattern being sometimes inappropriate, after that has happened a few times you have a collection of home-made clamps that fit just about any situation. Also, I have been leary of using the T-slots for work holding -- afraid of damaging them in my zeal to get the workpiece really secure. That's just my opinion, of course, and you know what they say about opinions -- they're worth about what you pay for them. Dave Goodfellow Lancaster, CA http://www.davegoodfellow.com/ ------- Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 02:32:56 -0000 From: "Keith Baddock" Subject: Re: Z Axis rotation Kevin wrote.... > For that matter, once you have the tooling plate installed, you have lost your T-slots, and you must then custom-machine a greater fraction of your work holding when it turns out the default hole pattern in the tooling plate is inappropriate. Have a look at the Crosslide Accessory Plate, P/N 3017 instead. It is a piece of "T" slotted extrusion designed to stiffen up the lathe cross-slide when being used with the vertical column, but would work fine as a "sacrifical" tool plate with T slots on the mill too! And it's $15 cheaper than the mill tooling plate too, but not as long. Keith ------- Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 04:22:12 -0000 From: "Antonius J.M. Groothuizen" Subject: Re: Z Axis rotation Jerry, Would there be many challenges to milling your own tooling plate? I'm thinking along the lines of a 7 X 13, 5 slot plate with a slight recess in the bottom for alignment with the table. Tony ------- Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2003 01:25:31 -0400 From: "JERRY G" Subject: Re: Re: Z Axis rotation Nope, As a matter of fact, I would suggest using the most stable aluminum for the purpose. I must have used miles of it during my career as a toolmaker in fifty years. Alcoa Plus is a cast tooling and jig plate. Very flat so it eliminates any fly cutting etc. What do you mean about a recess?I would bore two close fitting holes for pins in line at the ends of the plate to engage the slots in the table for alignment. Regards, Jerry G -------- Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2003 16:22:22 -0600 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Re: Z Axis rotation Hi Kevin, Jerry, I machined my own tooling plate, with a grid of 10-32 tapped holes. Goes on/off easy. I find that using the stepped hold down blocks, I have much better setups for milling. I'd definately recommend buying or making one! The stepped hold down blocks are also quite worthwhile. Or you can used 10-32 threaded rod, and some aluminum bar stock, and make your own! Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2003 23:26:55 -0000 From: "timgoldstein" Subject: Re: Z Axis rotation I do virtually all of my machining of parts that don't go into a vise with them clamped directly to the table. If the part is to be cut all the way through I do put a spoilboard under it. As far as not being sure if your CNC program will drive your cutter into the table, that is why I use a tool path viewer program (Discriminator) to verify that it is cutting what I intended before I run it on the machine. As far as damaging the T-slots on a Sherline, my experience is the flange on the T-nut break before you can tighten enough to harm the slot. If you really want to crank things tight than you can stop by and tighten some clamp bolts on my Bridgeport Series II. Tim [Denver, CO] ------- Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:51:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Mr Ed Troy Subject: Best way to hog out aluminum blocks to make box Most of what I use a mill for is hogging out aluminum or brass bar stock to make enclosures for microwave circuitry. This is the industry standard technique. I usually start with a 2-1/2 by 4 by 1 inch thick piece of aluminum, and end up with a box that is about .675 deep with 3/8 inch thick walls. It is then drilled and tapped for connectors and so as to allow a lid to be attached. I have been doing this with end mills, but it is, obviously, very time consuming. (I've been using cut depths of about .030 inches, which I suspect is too deep, since I have already broken 1 end mill, and the walls are not very smooth.) This is obviously an application that screams for a CNC, and I suspect I will soon be convert- ing my 2000 to CNC. But, in the meantime, I am wondering if a more appropriate way to perform this operation is to use a large boring bit to remove most of the metal, and then to finish the fob with an end mill. Any suggestions? TIA ------- Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:41:30 -0000 From: "Charles Hixon" Subject: Re: Best way to hog out aluminum blocks to make box TIA, I like to use 3/8" stub-length milling bits because the setup is a little more rigid, produces a better finish, and the bits are less inclined to break. Stub-length has about a 1/2" long flute but you can pull out a little more depth, depending on whose they are. Charles Hixon ------- Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 22:15:24 EDT From: eabracherx~xxaol.com Subject: Re: Best way to hog out aluminum blocks to make box Have you thought of having these boxes cast and then removing a clean up cut? ------- Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 23:44:42 -0700 From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Subject: RE: Best way to hog out aluminum blocks to make box Hi, Ed: One thing to consider - Instead of milling your cavity to its correct dimensions, consider milling a smaller cavity while you're taking the multiple cuts to make the actual cavity. Then, once the cavity is cut to its full depth, make a final cut at full depth that "shaves" the cavity to its correct size. This will give you a smooth cavity instead of the one that has all of the "steps" cut into it. -- Jerry ------- Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:07:28 -0000 From: "lan_brooks" Subject: Re: Best way to hog out aluminum blocks to make box I forget the correct terminology for the technique, but I have recently seen it in American Machinist or Modern Machine Shop. First you need to make a hole to just under full depth using a drill. Then, you use an endmill to "drill" overlapping holes with lots of overlap, generally more than 50% of the mill diameter. The advantage here is that the direction of motion, down, is in the most rigid axis for the mill and you can take the heaviest bite. The cavity is milled this way with a series of drilling moves until it is slightly smaller than the final outline and slightly shallower than the final depth. Conventional milling operations are then used to smooth up the cavity and bring it to final depth. When I saw this technique written up it intrigued me because it gets you to a rough cavity faster when doing manual operation and of course also under CNC control. Make a depth stop and give it a try. BR, Lan Brooks ------- Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:30:39 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Re: Best way to hog out aluminum blocks to make box Hi Lan and others: This is a good technique on a reasonably rigid mill, but quite dangerous on something as small as a Sherline. The problem with endmills in this situation is that while the machine is hobbling around from the uneven cut, the flutes on the cutter can grab the work and make a nasty smash. The endmill will also wear to a tapered shape over time, exacerbating this tendency to grab, and ruining an expensive cutter. A very good way to make it much safer is to substitute a stubby boring bar for the endmill. When plunge roughing like this, a better technique is to advance the boring tool about 0.050" per plunge cycle, rather than 50% or more of the tool diameter. The chip control is better and it's far kinder to the mill too. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:57:11 -0700 From: Alan Rothenbush Subject: RE: Best way to hog out aluminum blocks to make box You may also want to think about removing most of the material by drilling it out first. Alan ------- Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:27:15 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Best way to hog out aluminum blocks to make box TIA. If I were doing this and was limited to smaller equipment I piece it together. I would purchase 2.500"x .375" plate for the bottom and .625" x .375" stock for the side walls, and screw it together since you're drilling and tapping for the lid anyway. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 18:05:44 -0700 From: k6sufx~xxdirecway.com Subject: Re: Best way to hog out aluminum blocks to make box I have read someplace that the most bang for the buck in removing metal is drilling. When I have larger amounts of metal to remove I drill or chain drill most of the unwanted metal away then finish with the mill or "armstrong shaper" (file) To make a box I would drill a series of holes around the edge of desired size (Using a stop so you don't drill clear through) then mill out the rest. When chain drilling in this manner it helps to keep holes close together by drilling every other hole first, then go back and drill the ones in between. This keeps the drill bit from wandering away over to the close by hole. John Meacham High desert of Calif ------- Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2003 15:25:21 -0000 From: "Charles Hixon" Subject: Re: Climb or Conventional Milling? You can get beautiful glossy surfaces in aluminum climb milling with a Sherline mill without coolant. The fix is more difficult implement without knowing the type of surface you are creating now. If your surface is clean but displays a scalloped pattern, you might need a backlash or gib adjustment. If the surface displays multiple parallel lines like a file surface, it is likely a speed-feed issue. If the surface looks grainy from embedded aluminum chips, the chips are not being sufficiently ejected, either because of adhesion to the cutter and piece by the lubricant or re-deflection into the cutting path. The previous suggestion to use a large, like 3/8", mill, should be considered for better chip ejection. Sometimes climb milling a roughing pass will produce a better surface than any subsequent finishing pass could produce. You might have to beef up your clamping setup to do this. It's all a matter of experimentation and what you learn will apply to the next job. Good luck! Charles Hixon ------- Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2003 18:14:40 +0200 From: "danpines/ADSL" Subject: Re: Digest Number 1307 I had a similar experience trying to achieve a nice surface on a 2" duraluminium cube (whatever type number it is) and using a 1/4" endmill supplied by Sherline. Tried it several times. A month later I bought a 2 flute 3/8" endmill, made a holder for it and tried again. The results were amazing. So the advice given to you by Jerry to use the largest possible endmill seems very sound. dan ------- Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 09:33:45 -0700 From: Peter Linss Subject: Re: Milling grooves for retaining rings blovesrula wrote: >I am milling an aluminum block to make a rotating joint for a robot I >am building. The plan is to bore a hole to fit a 1/2" ball bearing. I >want to secure the bearing in the hole with retaining rings. >Can someone please recommend a "Sherline" solution for making this >groove? The groove width is to be around .039". I own a vertical mill >(to help in suggesting a solution). I was thinking of using a >slitting saw but the holder itself is too large to fit in the 1/2" hole. >The other solution I thought of for milling these grooves are using a >cylinder bur (common jewelry bit) held in a collet in the vertical >mill and mounting the aluminum block so that the bored hole is >pointing straight up in the rotary table. Spinning the x axis table >forces the cylinder bur into the material to the required depth and >by turning the rotary table handwheel in a full circle completes the >cut. I think the cylinder burs are similar to the slitting saws. >Cylinder burs can be found in a wide range of sizes and they do not >require a slitting saw holder. I would think this would work the >best. I leave it to the experts out there! >Looking forward to your advice...B Sherline sells a threading and grooving carbide insert holder and a carbide grooving insert (P/N 7616 & 7660). They say that the holder is 3/8" but not if it's round or square. If the tool is round you may be able to put it in the boring tool holder and cut your groove that way. If the tool is square you could always put it in the P/N 7600 tool holder and cut the groove on the lathe (provided you can chuck up the joint). Alternatively I suppose you could turn the end of the insert holder round so it'll fit in the boring head... ------- Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 16:56:06 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Milling grooves for retaining rings What you have described will work fine if you have the proper width bur. I did this a number of times before purchasing grooving tools. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 10:42:26 -0700 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Milling grooves for retaining rings You might try mounting the plate flat and centered on the rotary table (just as you reamed the hole), and then use a piece of drill rod turned down on the shank, save for a .039" thick by 3/8" diameter disk on the end. then grind a tooth by cutting 1/2 the disk off. Cut most of the other side off too, then add some back rake behind the point that will do the cutting (flatten the perimeter). You now have a single tooth cutter that can be fed outwards from starting on the center of the rotary table axis first. As you get the required depth (or make a few passes), rotate the table to get the full groove. cutting a few grooves in aluminum probably won't even require tempering, but you can do that as well. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 20:58:59 -0700 From: "keith green" Subject: Re: centering the rotary table >> Is there a trick getting the rotary table centered with the milling tool? I don't seem to be able to center anything. Also whenever I mill something the sides of whatever I have milled wind up with ... i don't striation marks, grooves whatever you want to call it... is this normal or am I doing something wrong? This book says to mill aluminum at 2000 rpms...whenever I mill aluminum at 2000 rpms i get nothing but chatter and doesn't matter how fast or slow I go ... it chatters. What am I doing wrong? Randall << There are numerous threads on here regarding centering the table under the tool so i won't address that.Before you go centering the tool, though, sounds like your head is tilted. Your should put a dial indicator in the spindle and, with the tip touching the table, rotate the spindle by hand. It should read zero all the way 'round. The chatter may get better with proper head alignment. If it does not, something must be loose somewhere. Milling aluminum at 2000 rpm is fine, if the diameter of your tool allows that kind of speed. You need to find the surface feet per minute suited to the diameter of your tool and the material you're milling. Generally, I would slow the thing down if I'm getting chatter. Steady, constant feed pressure should be maintained throughout the cut to prevent the chatter from starting. Once it starts, it's harder to get rid of it. Whether in the lathe, mill, shaper or slotter, the solution is the same: Reduce the speed, increase the feed/depth of cut (if possible), increase the sturdiness of your setup (if possible). If this fails get rid of the chatter marks with a file, grinder, etc. and try again at reduced speed and see how that goes. Sometimes there's a "sweet spot" and you have to feel your way towards it. I have one job I have to do on a regular basis at work. It requires boring a hole outside the design parameter of the boring bar I have to use and the thing chatters like hell for 4 passes and lightens up on the last roughing pass. The light finishing pass removes the rest (most of the time). The other guy who runs the machine besides me has monkeyed with the speed, feed, cut-depth and tool-overhang a lot and the current settings are the best we've been able to do with the tip we use. Change the tip/bar combo and the sweet spot will move but not go away. We just slap on the hearing protection and let it scream. Good luck. keith green Vancouver, BC ------- Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 07:06:18 -0000 From: "randall_wcq88" Subject: Re: centering the rotary table Thanks Dave You have a few projects on your web site that I'd like to try. I don't have a lathe yet. Just a 5400 mill with rotary table. Saving up for the lathe package. I don't have much and all the projects I am starting out with are part holders. (I figure it's good practice.) I'm thinking of taking a piece of 3/8" all-thread, milling down the threads on one end, leaving enough of the 3/8" threads to thread into the rotary table center hole and using a 1/4-20 die to rethread the milled end. Then center drill a piece of 3/8" aluminum round and tap it for 1/4-20 and use a set screw in the side of it. Don't know if I explained that right or not. I figure then I would have a little something that I could screw into the rotary table for a quick lineup into the spindle. I've made a couple of rotary table part holders using 3/8" all-thread, milling down the theads on one side and retaping them or just leaving them and taping 3/8" threads into the base of the holder i'm making. I don't know about the chatter. Guess I just need to practice more. Randall PS: My first project on the mill was a mill plate. I drilled all the holes 3/4 inches apart and it lets me put stuff like my rotary table in the center of the table instead of being offset and I wound up with 11 rows of 5 holes to tap but I like having all the different options of fixing stuff to the table. 3/4 inches apart is just right for the mill vise, rotary table, tilting angle table and tail stock holder. ------- From: "Antonius J.M. Groothuizen" Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 7:45 am Subject: Re: backlash? gib? x-axis > I apologize for the probably dumb question, but I couldn't seem to > find the answer anywhere. > I just got a new 5400 cnc-ready mill. The Y and Z axes are perfect, > but the X axis motor mount wobbles quite a bit. If I push lightly on > it I can move it up at least 1/8". It also moves left and right and > clockwise, counterclockwise. Is this due to a bad backlash > adjustment, gib adjustment, or something else? > I tried to adjust the backlash by loosening the pan screw and > removing the position holder and turning the star nut by hand but it > won't budge. Is there a good tool for this? I can't seem to get a > wrench in there because there is so little space. RD, The mount itself may be loose. There are two socket head cap screws that fasten it to the table. You may want to check these. I screw the anti-backlash nut a short way onto the leadscrew and then push this into the saddle, ensuring that it's engaged with the lock. I then turn the leadscrew into the slide screw insert nut. If it pushes the anti-backlash nut out I rotate that 180 degrees and try again. I use the blade of a small screwdriver to tighten the anti- backlash nut, and then to hold the lock in position while i tighten the pan head screw that locks it down. BTW: There's a group that is specificly for CNC Sherline equipment at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/ Tony ------- From: "JERRY G" Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 1:20 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] backlash? gib? x-axis Rd, My suggestion is to contact Craig Libuse ASAP. He is at Sherline. A fine and helpful gentleman. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. My experience has been is to use a small screwdriver to lightly tap the star nut in the desired direction. I could make a wrench for it. ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:27:01 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: Is this Sherlineable? Hi: I am wondering if any of you machining pros can help me devise a way to mill very long, narrow pieces using my 4400-long bed lathe and milling column. I'd like to mill model truck frame rails that are essentially C-channels. The channels would be between 0.400" and 0.560" in width and between 0.140 and 0.178 in depth. The trouble is that they would be made as much as 20" in length. I've searched high and low and nobody makes small C-channel to match the scale width and thickness I need. I envision making an auxiliary base for the milling column such that it would sit perpendicular to the lathe bed at its midpoint. I'd then use the long travel of the lathe saddle to advance the stock beneath the cutter. The tailstock would be removed to allow additional travel of the saddle. Of course, the headstock/motor/speed control would be on the milling column. The trouble I see is that the long stock would have to be supported on either side of the lathe saddle. Is this operation impossible on the small Sherline or is there an inventive mind that can conjure up a way to do this? Thanks. Bryan ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 17:37:49 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: Re: Is this Sherlineable? "Glen Reeser" wrote: >Has anybody tried mounting the milling column on the lathe cross slide? Hi Glen: I had considered that. I'd mount the milling column on the cross slide and place a 24" length of 0.75" x 4" aluminum plate (on edge) adjacent and parallel to the lathe bed. My brass flat would then be clamped to the top of this aluminum plate. I later discounted this idea figuring the leverage of a tall column on top of the thin cross slide would make for an inconsistent cut. Then again, maybe the cross slide, to which a tool plate would be added, would be rigid enough given the light cuts in brass I would be taking??? Bryan ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:46:09 -0500 From: "Pete Brown" Subject: RE: Is this Sherlineable? Would it not be more economical to make the C-channels by either bending brass or by soldering brass strip stock? Pete Brown - Gambrills, MD (Near Annapolis) Visit my personal site : http://www.irritatedVowel.com (wallpaper, western maryland ry, .net, photography, model rr) ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 18:45:43 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: Re: Is this Sherlineable? Hi Pete: I have tried bending brass strip and was unable to produce the desired effect. I chose Brass over aluminum because I would like to be able to solder pieces to the frame rails. Unfortunately, even the thin (0.016") brass strip was hard enough that my small bending brake was unable to produce the small-radius bends I need. Using a plastic mallet to pound the edges to the small-radius needed left a lot of filing/sanding to clean up the edge. Also, bending the flanges on the channel induced a long curvature that was difficult to remove. I hoped to avoid soldering three pieces to form a channel as I would need to cut each long strip to uniform width. I tried cutting these long strips using a nibbler, a cutoff wheel in my Dremel, and metal shears. All cutting methods left a ragged edge that required a lot of post soldering cleanup. Finally, I'd like to use the precision X-Y movements of the mill to drill hole patterns in the frame rails. ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:44:13 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Meyer Subject: RE: Is this Sherlineable? How critical is this channel? I have done simple work larger than Sherline capacity by making a cut, unclamping, moving it down, and reclamping. You can put in a 1/4" thick chunk of steel (or whatever) in the t-slot, and using that to aline the part. I was able to get things within a few thou, and probably could have done better if I got finicky. HTH. Scott ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 18:57:22 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: Re: Is this Sherlineable? Hi Scott: I could probably get by with around 0.005" tolerance along the width of these frame rails. I think your idea is the most likely to work in my case. Since the travel of the Sherline cross slide is only 4.25", I'd need to move my clamping position at least five times for each rail. I like the idea of a "fence" of sorts clamped to the cross slide. I suppose, as long as this "fence" is indicated relative to the spindle, the frame rails would be aligned correctly each time it's moved. Thanks. Bryan ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:10:10 -0800 (PST) From: Scott Meyer Subject: Re: Re: Is this Sherlineable? Bryan- Just being finicky. I tend to get that way at times. You won't be indicating relative to the spindle, but relative to the movement of the table. As long as the the surface (in the t-slot) that you are using as reference is parallel to the movement of the table, you should be fine. So put an indicator in the spindle, and run it along the reference surface in your t-slot. Mine was dead nuts on. I'm not sure if there is adjustment if it is off or not. Scott ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 20:20:33 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: Re: Is this Sherlineable? Hi Scott: Yes, I tend to get very finicky, often to a fault. My current project is a seven-axle dump truck. I've gotten some good recommendations from this forum though. Thus far, I've built my scratch built frame rails from sheet and strip styrene plastic. I have to use styrene that's 0.040" thick to get the needed strength and this is waaaaay too thick to be in scale. The fact that frame rail dimensions vary greatly due to truck application (i.e. long-haul tractor compared to a dump truck, etc.) gives rise to the need to scratch build my own frame rails. It's good to know the t-slot in the cross slide is likely accurate enough in relation to the spindle. Thanks. Bryan ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 13:38:57 -0600 From: "Nance, Tom" Subject: RE: Re: Is this Sherlineable? Hi Bryan, You may want to check out SpecialShapes.com. They have brass c-channel in 36 inch lengths. I don't know how finicky you are about detail, but I should mention that much of the c-channel used to form the frames of trucks are either bent or are extruded. But anyway, the cross-section shape of the beam has very rounded corners. Just thought I should mention that. Tom Nance Corpus Christi, Tx ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 19:48:30 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: Re: Is this Sherlineable? Hi Tom: Thanks for the reply. Special Shapes' square brass tubing comes pretty close to the dimensions I need, albeit being a bit thick. The c-channel shapes are quite a bit too small. Another reason I'd like to mill my own frame rails is to duplicate the radii you mentioned by using a corner-rounding end mill on the outside and a ball nose end mill on the inside. Cutting down some of the Special Shapes square tubing may just work though. Thanks. Bryan ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:56:20 -0700 From: "Shawn Berend" Subject: RE: Re: Is this Sherlineable? We make small metal boxes by first cutting a 90 degree channel _almost_ through the metal along the folding line, then bending and soldering along that line. Here is my simple ASCII picture, looking along the channel. This channel can be cut with a small 90 degree dremel burr or a small slitting saw held at a 45 degree angle (among other methods). -----\ /---- \ / \/ --------------- After fold: | | | | -----+ | \ | \| --------+ It will take very little solder along the inner fold, and very little force to fold along the line. Shawn ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 20:29:27 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: Re: Is this Sherlineable? Hi Shawn: Upon seeing your sketch, I wondered whether I could guide my Dremel tool, held in its router attachment, along a straight edge placed on the brass strip. I imagine using a V-cutter in the Dremel. Bending the brass in this manner may yield the corner radius I am looking for. Is this similar to the method you use to cut the 90- degree channel in your application? Thanks. Bryan ------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 00:25:02 -0700 From: "Shawn Berend" Subject: Bending metal (Was: Is this Sherlineable?) I think that would work, you need to make sure your V-cutter is 90 degrees so your bend naturally assumes a 90 degree angle. Take several light passes, you will be working against the tendacy of the dremel router to ride up. If you don't have a 90 degree cutter, look here: http://shorinternational.com/Bur.htm They are cheap enough to get a variety and play around ($3-4 each). The jewelry supply companies have a bunch of neat stuff for metal workers on a small scale. (That's just about the definition of jewelry making!) This company is one of the big suppliers in the field: http://www.riogrande.com Here is a little write-up I found describing the process of bending in more detail (from a jewelry perspective): http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/scobnd.htm Hope you find these links useful. Shawn ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:26:08 -0500 From: "Pete Brown" Subject: RE: Re: Is this Sherlineable? FYI. If you try to machine a thin-walled C channel from bar stock, you will likely have a problem with deflection. (the sides may bow-out rather than cut) To avoid that, you need to firmly brace both sides of the stock with other squared-off stock. It also depends on how many passes you will have to make, etc. Pete ------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 21:29:04 -0000 From: "Glen Reeser" Subject: Re: Is this Sherlineable? We make small metal lids for our electronic modules by etching grooves in the bend lines and forming the lid in with a set of dies in an arbor press. Eventually we tool the lid and make them in high volume, but this etching method makes very nice looking parts for prototypes. The outline of the lid is etched through and the bend lines are etched about half way. You could use the same technique to form your channel and even make some complicated shapes. Glen Reeser ------- Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:43:55 -0800 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Flycutting Aluminum > After flycutting 6061 aluminum, simply to square up a block, I > always have a slight burr on each edge, having taken off about 10 > thou at each pass. Taking less off with each pass simply gives me a > finer burr. I realize that I can remove this burr by handfiling or > by using an end mill, but is there a way to avoid this or is it just > what you get when using a flycutter? By the way, the tool is > carbide and is new. There is a way to minimse the burr when surfacing a block. The trick is to always be climbcutting in such a way as to have the cutter cutting into the block from the edge inward. The way to do this is to walk clockwise around the periphery with less than 1/2 of the cutter width engaged, and then mill the center away with a separate pass. This makes the surface finish uneven of course, but depending on what you want to achieve, it's often worthwhile. It's also the best technique for milling wood and plastic to avoid tearout or edge chipping. In fact, that's where I learned how to do it...milling end grain maple. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 10:54:12 -0800 From: "Dave Goodfellow" Subject: RE: Flycutting Aluminum As others have said, the burr is a fact of life. But though using a file to remove it works, I've found a deburring tool works better. I picked one up at a Westec show a couple of years ago for less than $5.00. An assortment of them is shown in the Travers catalog and (I assume) Enco, and others. Dave Goodfellow Lancaster, CA http://www.davegoodfellow.com/ ------- Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:57:47 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: Flycutting Aluminum I think a slight burr is to be expected, whether you fly cut or end mill. Use a fine file, and DRAW it along (long ways) the edge at a 45 degree angle to remove the slight burr. Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 02:25:43 -0000 From: "John DeLuca" Subject: Trouble securing mill collets Hi: I'm new to machining, but have been enjoying my Sherline lathe for several months and just received the Sherline mill. I received three mill collets (1/8, 3/16, and 1/4") with the mill package. The documentation states that these collets are to be used with the Morse #1 taper on the headstock spindle, and they do have a #1 taper. But, when using the supplied drawbolt and collar, the drawbolt becomes fully inserted into the collets about 1/8 inch before the collet is drawn snug into the spindle taper. Hmmmm. I suspected that I needed a collet adapter that would take up about 1/4 inch, but the docs do not suggest an adapter is necessary. There must be a simple answer. Thanks for any insight. John DeLuca ------- Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 06:28:01 -0600 From: "Nance, Tom" Subject: RE: Trouble securing mill collets >why don't you try a sorter bolt? It's a common 5/16" bolt, or add washers. Actually, John, your original thought about needing an adapter is correct. [NOTE TO FILE: NOT CORRECT, SEE TOM'S FOLLOW-UP MESSAGE BELOW.] You can purchase the adapter separately, but if you can afford it, I'd suggest you buy the collet set. The set comes with the adapter along with 15 or 16 collets - all of which you will use at one time or another. But you definitely need the collet adapter to mount the collets in the spindle. While you are ordering it, make sure you get the knock out bar as well. I think the bar comes with the adapter, but if not, make sure you get it. It really helps getting the adapter out of the spindle which gets wedged in pretty tight some times. Hope this helps. Tom Nance Corpus Christi, TX ------- Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:44:16 -0000 From: "Bryan Hassing" Subject: Re: Trouble securing mill collets Tom: I'm a bit confused. I too have the milling collets that John mentioned. The WW collet set you mentioned (which is found at the following address: http://www.sherline.com/1162pg.htm ) does indeed include an adapter. However, the milling collet (non-WW collets) instructions say nothing about using an adapter and it appears Sherline doesn't offer one specifically for the milling collets. If the milling collets absolutely needed to be used with an adapter, wouldn't Sherline have provided one? Thanks. Bryan ------- Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 06:46:43 -0600 From: "Nance, Tom" Subject: RE: Trouble securing mill collets Oops, sorry, John and the rest of you guys. I had my head up my a** and was thinking of WW collets. The standard collets don't need an adapter and go right into the spindle. Sorry. There are two things that could make the collet not draw up into the spindle. The first one is easy: make sure the drawbar has its little washer/spacer on it. Both sizes of drawbars use a washer at their tops. The second thing is a little more difficult. I remember when I first used the standard collets I couldn't draw them up tight either. I found the problem to be with the drawbar. I may have just gotten a bum drawbar and all the others in the world are okay. But the one I got seemed to have had its threads stamped out instead of rolled or cut with a die. It had some really terrible threads. I had to run the bar thru a die several times before I could get it to thread all the way onto the collet. After I did that, then I had no more trouble. Sorry about the screw up. Too early in the morning, I guess. Tom Nance -------- Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 16:43:30 -0000 From: "Mark Iennaco" Subject: Re: Trouble securing mill collets My $.02. I also found that the drawbar was running into the shaft of the 1/8 dremel style bits, so I drilled a 5/32 hole about an inch into the end of the drawbar bolt. ------- Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:14:32 -0500 From: "Shorty Leatherwood" Subject: Re: Trouble securing mill collets John, I have bought many sherline attachments for my mill and lathe, so I have received a lot of drawbars from sherline. One thing that I have found is that sherline does not seem to have a standard for the drawbar, I have drawbars ranging from just under 5 inches in length to 5 3/8 in length, also the length of threads vary by as much as 1/4 of an inch. You might just measure your drawbar and if it is longer than 5 inch go to the hardware store and purchase a 1/4-20 bolt 5 inches long, or about 1/4 of an inch shorter than the one you have. If you have a lot of threaded end say about an inch you can use a dremel tool and cut off about 1/4 inch of thread. I have some attachments that must use the shorter bolt and some that really don't matter. I am not sure why they have this difference but I have found that the shorter bolt seems to work on about everything. Of course you could call sherline and see if they would send you another drawbar, I am sure they would. HTH. shorty ------- Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2004 10:10:50 +1200 From: "Richard T. Perry" Subject: Why I'm grumpy this weekend - a cautionary tale. OK, so I was fired up this weekend. I slept a little late (always good) and headed right into the shop to do some work. Task at hand is the "clock project". Specifically, today I was drilling the pillar holes in the brass plates on my Sherline mill. The way I was working was to center punch the holes, pilot drill with a 1/8", then go to a "D" and then ream to .250 finished diameter. First two holes worked like a charm. I had just started the third hole with the "D" bit when the spindle stopped without warning and the room was filled with DC motor hum. I quickly shut it off, figuring the bit had grabbed in the brass. When I backed the bit out, I found the spindle wasn't turning at all (even free of the work). Now I was confused, so I started poking around. What I eventually found was that the pulley on the motor side of the belt had had it's setscrew loosen and backed out. Then the pulley jammed itself up against the plastic belt housing hard enough to stop the motor (and presumably is being held in place by burring the motor shaft). Well, that's a first! I tried HARD to get that sucker off - no luck. I have access to an appropriately sized three jaw puller at work, and all I did was manage to tear three holes in the pulley diameter. I'm going to have to get the pulley off with a Dremel tool and a hacksaw, I think, then dress out any shaft burrs I find. Ok, here comes the point. This mill was 'bout a year or so old, and moderately used (I tend to spend about 75% of my time on the lathe, and 25% on the mill. Say 2 hours of actual rotating time a week, over a year - maybe 75 hours "old".) I'll be the first to admit that this is my first mill, so I'm guessing that vibrations during my operations are probably higher than the average Joe's. However, I didn't expect this catastrophic failure. I went and checked the other setscrew on the mill spindle and the two on my lathe. One of the three (the motor side on the lathe) was a little (say 5-10 degrees) loose. Other two were OK. I would recommend everybody checking these setscrews on a regular "PM" basis (I hadn't been.) I'm also thinking about adding a dab of Locktite in the hole, but I'm not certain that's a good idea yet (I tend to try to avoid Locktite in recessed fasteners.) Bottom line is that (assuming that the shaft is OK - yet to be seen) I'm out $9.60 plus shipping for a new pulley (P/N 43360, in case you're interested) and a couple weeks work (I live overseas). And I'm P.O'ed 'cause my weekend's shot to heck. Of course, I have some aluminum round that might be big enough... and my lathe still runs fine... And hey - If I have to order something from Sherline, I might as well make it worth the shipping, right? Talk to you all later - I got stuff to do. Richard Perry ------- Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2004 22:34:23 -0000 From: "Charles Hixon" Subject: Re: Why I'm grumpy this weekend - a cautionary tale. That happened to me and I used Loctite. Many, many hours, crashes, vibrations later, still fine. I figured if I had to remove the wheel by destroying it, I'm out just about as much money. Charles Hixon ------- Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 06:28:32 -0000 From: "mileagemayvary" Subject: PN3060 Milling collet. DANGER! can cause damage. I have been using this part quite a lot. This is the collet which has been mentioned here lately. It has a cylindrical part 10.14 mm diam which is internally threaded for the drawbar, then a sharp step of 0.8mm, then a #1 MT profile 12.5 mm long. It is used for high accuracy milling. SYMPTOMS: 1. Tighten the drawbar firmly but mill bit still slips. 2. Tommy bar seems hard to remove. 3. Accuracy becomes very poor. On inspection find: 1. Bad dings at the sharp step in the collet. 2. Tommy bar end is mangled. 3. O No, the inside of the headstock MT is damaged. CAUSE: The Sherline headstock tommy bar holes are drilled right thru into the MT. When you insert the tommy bar the end is stopped by the cylindrical part of the collet. When you pull up the drawbar the sharp step on the collet aligns right at the edge of the tommy bar hole (YMMV) and it attempts to shear the end off the tommy bar against the headstock tommy bar hole. Result mangled collet, headstock MT, tommy bar. FIXES: Errr.. I filed the bad dents off the collet. A jig to hold it in the lathe to work on it would take a while to make. Don't see any easy fix. Possibilities are: Turn new tommy bars with a shoulder to limit its entry, turn the sharp edge on the collet to a bevel, CA a tube stop on the tommy bar, CA a little plug in the tommy bar holes on the headstocks (on all machines) so TBs cannot enter into the MT. Take a cut off the headstock MT to clean it up. ------- Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 02:08:17 -0500 From: RichD Subject: Re: PN3060 Milling collet. DANGER! can cause damage. YMMV, that's why I never use the T B holes in the spindle. A spindle lock or brake is very sorely needed. A Fix: A simple pin engaging a hole(s) in the large pulley and a matching hole in the headstock is all that is needed. Still using the T B. Align the holes and drop in the pin. Do try not to drill into the bearing race :-)) Try it. You'll like it. RichD ------- Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 10:34:56 -0800 From: Alan Marconett KM6VV Subject: Re: PN3060 Milling collet. DANGER! can cause damage. HI YM, Funny, I've never had that problem. The tommy bars don't enter the taper if the collet and drawbar are already in. My collet DOES seem to go in a long way, which may be the difference (end of collet almost flush). I only use the collets occasionally now, as I have the end mill holders. Much nicer! A few things still need collets. 1/8" endmills and my "Last Word" DTI. And of course the drill chucks still use the #1 MT taper. These fully block the tommy bar hole. May I suggest that you lightly assemble the collet, drawbar and cutter in the spindle BEFORE applying the tommy bar? HTH Alan KM6VV ------- Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:18:35 -0600 From: "Scott Peterson" Subject: Re: PN3060 Milling collet. DANGER! can cause damage. Yup...I noticed this sort of thing too. I was in the process of turning a couple Morse taper mandrels for a project I was working on. It came time to try my handiwork, and I inserted the first mandrel...only to have a rocking "clunk, clunk". Yikes!!!...'was sure that I had the right angle! I had set my compound with a DTI (thank you group!) and made a couple of light finish cuts driving the compound "hands off" with a hex key in a hand drill applied to the screw in the handwheel. I removed the taper and applied some "Sharpie layout dye". (felt-tip pen) Upon re-insertion, and a little "twist and shout", I found there to be a high spot inside the spindle that corresponded with the tommy bar holes. I had not used collets in the spindle...just tommy bars to remove chucks. I figured that the tommy bar had slightly deformed the area immediately around the hole in the spindle. It is not a terrible thing in my case...things pull up nicely and run true when the draw bolt is tightened...it's just an annoyance. I've not had the described problem with collets in the mill...but like the idea about a spindle lock forwarded by RichD. It's definitely on my "to do" list. Regards, Scott ------- Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 19:47:23 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: PN3060 Milling collet. DANGER! can cause damage. I have never had this happen however, I did have a bur on the inside of the spindle tommy bar hole of the spindle about ten years ago. I resolved the problem by rounding the end of the tommy bars that were not already rounded. Have never had another problem after several thousand hours of use. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 20:18:49 -0000 From: "Keith Baddock" Subject: Re: PN3060 Milling collet. DANGER! can cause damage. Do you even need need the spindle lock? I have always tightened everything (collets, jacobs chuck) by just holding the pulley with my fingers, then just nipping up the draw bar. Likewise with a mill holder, just finger tight - only an issue if you just turn off the motor, rather than slowing down gradually - tends to unscrew holder - more of a problem if you use lathe chuck! I must admit to occasionaly resorting to the tommy bar to remove the lathe chuck - but in that case the tommy bar goes right through both holes, and will not burr the inside of the hole near the morse taper (unless you are a REAL gorilla and elongate the holes into an oval!) Keith ------- Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 17:59:04 -0500 From: RichD Subject: Re: Re: PN3060 Milling collet. DANGER! can cause damage. Keith, Well, I got tired of the gorilla approach to a spindle lock. Especially when using the machine frequently. All my other machines have some way of locking and it just seems Sherline can add a simple hole in 2 parts to solve a headache (and finger aches for some older folks) and a potenially hazardous situation. A forgotten tommy bar when the motor is switched on may hit someone or do damage. A lock pin will not budge. Only screech the belt as a warning. In combination with a self releasing drawbar, a spindle lock makes things much easier on the tools and hands. RichD ------- Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 08:38:36 +1200 From: "Richard T. Perry" Subject: Tommy bar holes in the spindle... Actually, the solution to this is on my "to do list"... I was planning to create a spanner wrench for the spindle (with a pin the size of the tommy bar hole.) I think there might be a couple of advantages to it - it would avoid the problem you've pointed out, it would be a little easier to operate than the tommy bar (I could make it with a longer handle) and (bonus) I would have to make it myself! Regards, Richard T. Perry ------- Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2004 12:27:54 EST From: maytagtwinx~xxaol.com Subject: Sherline Mill Vice - Strength of, Slippage in...Jerry's "Holds like grim death" Hi Jerry, I think the device is called a quoin. It certainly does grip. I have used them in locking letterpress movable type into the chase (rectangular iron frame which then fits into the press). It consists of two wedges, with matching gear teeth which you place together. Then, you use the quoin key, a t-handle small gear wheel on a shaft which you put between the two pieces, and turn. The wedges slide together, and press outward as they do. Once things are tightly locked, the key is removed, the chase placed into the press, and you are good to go. If one were to build such a device, the trick will be to make the teeth such that they can't fit together. They two wedge pieces must ride smoothly together. I am soon to dig into some of the old printing stuff that is in my garage, and I if I run across a quoin and key, I'll take a picture and share it. Regards, Ron Carroll Clearmont, Missouri ------- Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 00:42:35 -0000 From: "Antonius J.M. Groothuizen" Subject: Re: "Dial indicator" "Charles Fox" wrote: >I just got my Sherline mill -- first ever in my life. I'm reading >everything I can find, and I see frequent reference to a "dial indicator." >My reading says I use that to align the mill, to make sure work is in the >right spot before I start performing operations on it, and other things. >1. Do you know of a relatively simple explanation of what one of those >gadgets does and how? >2. Do you know of a designation, a supplier and an approximate price of >what I should get? Thanks up front, Charles Fox Charles: Is it the 2000? If so I have the same mill. I'm not impressed with Sherline's tramming instructions. I'll get to that later. Many recommend a high quality dial indicator such as Starrett's 'Last Word' as being the single most required instrument to set up your mill. It's not! If cost is an issue, buy a cheap one from any supplier. What you need during setup is a dial indicator capable of 'repeatability' and indicating whether your measurement is greater or less than a reference with a markings of about 0.001". or 0.025 mm. The accuracy of measurement of the dial indicator counts only when you wish to compensate for table irregularities and those in the Z-Axis due to X-Y positioning during setup. The place to spend your money is a good machinist's square. This is the reference that you will measure against in the setup up of your mill. I have two. One is used for coarse setup, and layout of my parts. The other is my 'standard' used only in setup, and only my dial indicator ever touches it's long arm. When getting started, a combination square (relatively cheap) is 'good enough' for your coarse setup. Coarse setup of the mill is rather simple. There are only 3 easy steps: 1. Lay your combination square on the mill's table, the short arm tight to the X-Axis, the long arm along the center of your Y-Axis leadscrew. With a small dia drill bit chucked up line the up the swing-arm so that the center of the bit is over the center of the leadscrew. (Important step, as this isolates the Z-X, and Z-Y planes, so that adjustments in one don't affect the other). 2. Lay your combination square with the short arm along the Y-Axis across the table and line up the column parallel to the long arm of the square, using the arm mount. 3. Lay your combination square with the short arm along the X-Axis in the center of the table and line up the column parallel to the long arm of the square, using the moveable clamping ring. Final tramming is also relatively simple, (squares here are your 'reference square'): 1. Z-Y squaring. Adjustments are made using the arm mount, dial indicator mounted on a shaft in the spindle, at right angles to Z, in the Z-Y plane. I use a single-ended 3/8" endmill mounted up-side down in the end-mill holder to mount the dial indicator, using an adapter from my magnetic base. Place your square with it's short arm parallel to the Y-Axis (you can use your combination square for alignment) and lightly clamp it in place using the step-block hold- down set. Run the Z-Axis up and down, and adjust the column for zero deflection as you do so. Note: Sherline shows this as figure 21 in the fifth edition of their 'Assembly and Instruction Guide', for the X-Axis. This setup CANNOT be used for adjusting headstock rotation as described in the caption. (This cost me several small dia drill bits to learn!) 2. Z-X squaring. Adjusments are made using the Adjustable Locking Ring. Setup is similar to above, but the short arm of the square lies parallel to X-Axis as shown in figure 21. 3. Rotation of the headstock in the X-Z plane is done using the setup of figure 19. 4. Front to back tilt of the headstock is done using the setup shown in figure 20. Final Notes: Squaring up the ram as shown in figure 18 is not required for 99.9% of the work that I do, the coarse adjustment suffices so I omit this step. You can put it in before step 1 of the final tramming procedure if you need it. Postion the swing arm back as close to the lower column as possible for your work to get the greatest rigidity. Use the right tool for the job. Save your high-quality, precise, accurate instrumentation for the measurements that require them. Hope these notes help. Tony ------- From: "Brian Chapman" Date: Thu Apr 15, 2004 9:25 am Subject: Gib adjustments? I'm not sure how to check gibs, to find out if they need adjustment. The mill saddle and the table, if pushed, move a slight amount (.010" maybe?). Is this normal, a backlash movement? (This is a Sherline 2000 mill). Or, perhaps this is a symptom of loose gibs? To adjust gibs, loosen the set screws. If the gib cannot be moved, they're OK? I looked in Martin's "Tabletop Machining" book and also on the Sherline Web site but did not find gib adjustment information. Perhaps I just missed it. Small 360 degree arcs are being cut out-of-round. Several persons a few weeks ago made suggestions how to correct this; among them were the gib adjustment advice. I'm starting with this to see find a way to correct the arc-cutting problem. If someone here can provide gib adjustment instructions, it would be much appreciated. Thanks much, Brian Chapman Cedar Rapids, Iowa ------- Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:25:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Henry Flymo Subject: Re: Gib adjustments? Brian, you have to loosen the set screw a couple of turns and push on the end of the gib while cranking the table agianst the pressure your're applying againist the gib. The table should move but the gib will not then crank the other way still pushing on the gib, the gib will move with the table and begin to tighten up and require more power to crank. Don't go to tight. Reset the screw. You're done! ------- Date: Tue, 04 May 2004 12:56:01 -0000 From: "ggfinger65" Subject: Using boring head on lathe? I have to bore a 1 3/8 hole about 1 1/4 deep in the end of a block of aluminum. Due to the length of the part(8Lx4Hx2W) I cannot use my milling machine because there is not enough Z clearance. Is it safe to put the boring head in the headstock in my lathe then attach the part to my crossfeed table? I was thinking that I could beef up the table a bit with a super thick slab of aluminum then just bolt the part to that..I dont care if I can only cut at a rate of 1/1000 a pass. I just want to know if it will be safe and accurate. I am concerned that it will vibrate too much to do a good job. Rob ------- Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 08:22:30 -0700 From: "Marcus and Eva" Subject: Re: Using boring head on lathe? Hi Rob: It will work brilliantly. You have another option though. You could tip the head of the mill 90 degrees and then clamp the job laying down on the table. That will allow you to get the bore where you want it without having to shim it into alignment with the lathe spindle. If you have a decent sized aluminum or steel plate, you could even mimic the Sherline horizontal attachment. Actually, for a one time project you could probably even get away with an MDF or plywood plate. Look on the Sherline website to see what the horizontal setup looks like. It's dirt simple to imitate. Cheers Marcus ------- Date: Tue, 4 May 2004 11:42:22 -0400 From: "Shorty Leatherwood" Subject: Re: Using boring head on lathe? Hello again Rob. Yes it is possible to do this. I would recommend the tightening up the gibs just a bit for this operation since there will be a lot of lateral forces; be sure not to get them too tight and loosen them back up to normal when you are finished. I have used this same set up several times for the same reasons that you have stated. This actually works better than boring with my 2000 mill cause it is a more rigid set up. Just take it slow and you will be fine. I would imagine that taking a .005 cut would be acceptable for this situation, then take a few .001 passes to finish up at the end to give a good finish. HTH shorty. ------- Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 01:28:15 -0000 From: "Antonius J.M. Groothuizen" Subject: Boring Operations I've reached the point where I have to bore a through hole deeper than that possible with Sherline boring tools. It's for a cylinder with a bore size of 3/4 X 2". I have three options (that I can see): 1. Get a longer boring bar such as those shown on this page from ENCO http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=73&PARTPG=INLMK32 Has anyone tried the 379-2550/2650 sets? Do they have a flat to fit into the Sherline boring head (3054) properly? How were your results? 2. Fiddle around with setups to bore this from both ends of the cylinder. I can bore either horizontally or vertically. I can mount the cylinder on the rotary table or perhaps use a vee block clamped to the table. I like the idea of the vee block with a horizontal bore. 3. Use a long 3/8" end-mill, with the cylinder clamped to the rotary table. I'd just need to rotate the cylinder and move either the X or Y axis. I'm not to conerned about switching between horizontal and vertical milling operations - it only takes me about 15 minutes to tram the mill in from scratch. (I had a little practice when I was working out the method). I'm much more concerned about the results. I'm a little worried the rigidity of the Model 2000 with the longer boring bars. Any suggestions / comments? Tony PS: I didn't mention it when I wrote up the procedure for tramming the head, but for horizontal milling , move the spindle about half way up the column, and use the column itself (or an engineer's square lightly clamped to the table) to verify that the spindle is horizontal. Mount your dial indicator in the spindle and rotate to check against either measuring point. ------- Date: Thu, 6 May 2004 21:53:48 -0400 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Boring Operations Tony: Have you considered an angle plate clamped to the table, and your cylinder clamped to a vertical V block and the end of the cylinder below the table's surface thereby giving you more effective Z space? You can swing the 2000's head to pick up the cylinders C/L. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Fri, 07 May 2004 03:25:51 -0000 From: "Antonius J.M. Groothuizen" Subject: Re: Boring Operations Jerry: One of the first jigs that I made was an alignment bar that clamps 'sort of' parallel to the X-Axis on my tooling plate. It's just a piece of regular 3/4" aluminum angle with #5-40 threaded holes tapped every 1/2 inch. This makes it very easy for me to align a workpiece along the X-Axis to within a thou. over its entire length. It's not pretty, but it works very well, saving a lot of the shifting that ocurred without it. It's removed before machining. I neglected to make one for the angle table, which would do the same for me along the Z-Axis. Perhaps I should. I've still got lots of headroom for this boring operation (3.5" between the boring tool and tooling plate). I shouldn't have to sling the workpiece over the edge of the table even with the longer boring tool. Tony ------- Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 15:14:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Ed Subject: Depth accuracy when milling using numerical readout Thanks to all who gave me suggestions regarding milling depth with 6061 aluminum. I have come to the conclusion that I can safely mill 70 to 100 mil cuts using my 3/8" end mill, at slow speed. (However, at one point, something "jumped", and I don't know what happened, but I was milling in a different place, even though the electronic readouts said I had not moved. I suspect the headstock moved, but I don't know how that would be possible. In any case, I ended up with a part that had to be reworked, because things were off by 30 mils. But, to an even bigger mystery! I use an edge finder to locate my x and y axes. (I would like to know how you are really supposed to use it, since backlash, and other effects seem to give an accuracy of only about 5 mils, at best) But, I don't know how to find the Z axis. What I have been doing is bringing the milling head down until it just, barely, makes contact. I then 0 the Z axis. However, after milling out a cavity to a depth of, say, 400 mils, with a 3/8" end mill, if I measure the depth with a caliper, it says about 420 mils. If I turn off the machine and bring the head down to rest on the surface of the aluminum, it will say something like 410 or even 415 mils. What is going on here? How do you use a mill with CNC if the depth is off by as much as 15 or 20 mils from what it thinks it should be? My suspicion is that the milling bits dig into the aluminum (I found that out when I set the bit at the lower stop position, rather than the upper position, thinking that the downward pressure of the Z axis would drive it there, anyway. It seems just the opposite.) In any case, I suspect that the downward "draw" of the milling bit is "bending" the structure of the mill so that it digs in more than you would think by just reading the dials. If that is true, then it should be a constant "offset" for a given RPM and a given size bit. Is this correct? Or, am I doing something completely wrong? Thanks, Ed ------- Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:57:53 -0400 From: "Jerry Glickstein" Subject: Re: Depth accuracy when milling using numerical readout Ed, always check the "dumb" things first. Did the end mill move? Did it creep down? If you are talking about .070" and .100" for mils, then you are in the wrong milling machine. Have you "trammed" your headstock to table alignment since something jumped? Edge finders normally repeat within .0005". Assuming take-up for backlash. Do you have the Z lock for the headstock? Do you lock it when making such cuts? I think you are expecting too much of a miniature milling machine. Pro trick when locating cutter in headstock in relation to the work. Place a piece of paper between the cutter end teeth and the work. Slowly advance the Z feed while rotating the spindle (by hand) counterclockwise in the case of right hand cutter. When the cutter teeth grab the paper, you are then about .003" away. If the cutter end is not running true, there will be deviations. Proceed accordingly. Make haste slowly :) Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 19:05:43 -0700 From: "Dave Hylands" Subject: RE: Depth accuracy when milling using numerical readout Hi Ed, When you put the endmill in the endmill holder, I tighten the set screw until I can just move the endmill back and forth. Then pull the endmill out as far as it can go, and then tighten the set screw up. When you push the Z-axis down, the bottoms of the threads on the leadscrew are pushing on the head. If your gibs are a little tight, then you'll be able to push the head down by the amount of the backlash (should be on the order of .005). What I do for measuring the height is to use a 0.020 leaf from a feeler gauge. I then lower until you can just feel the feeler gauge catching on the end mill. To eliminate the backlash effect, you would then push down on the head (not using the leadscrew, but physically pushing on the head). Then raise the head until you can just put your feeler gauge under. Now you know you're .020 from the surface. When you're cutting with the endmill, especially while taking bigger cuts, the endmill will try to pull the head down into the workpiece. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 02:15:32 -0500 From: "Gordon Couger" Subject: Re: Depth accuracy when milling using numerical readout Ed, are the readouts from stepper motors or encoders. If is stepper motors you may have missed a 30 mils of steps when something hung. One of the many evils of open loop control. If it is encoders the jump had to be in the clamping or backlash some how. Gordon ------- Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 22:01:40 -0000 From: "Ron OConnor" Subject: Using the faceplate on the rotary table? I plan to turn some 3" square aluminum pieces into 3" round aluminum pieces by mounting them on the faceplate and rotating them on the milling machine. What is the simplest way to prevent the faceplate from unscrewing? Thanks in advance. Ron ------- Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 18:18:30 -0400 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Using the faceplate on the rotary table? Go far out as you can on the faceplate, (largest radius available within the slots) and put a screw and washer in one of the slots that goes into a t-nut in the rotary table. After the faceplate is screwed onto the adapter, of course. Or, clamp the faceplate at the OD with a suitable block under where you are clamping. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 21:22:18 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: adjusting the Headstock bearings for high speeds -7,000 to10,000rmp >> Chuck, I did read the instructions and did adjust the bearings. In fact, I had to adjust them far beyond the recommended number of degrees before I could get any acceptable running without creating an untouchably-hot headstock. I haven't measured it yet, but I suspect I have too much play now given that I had to back off that nut so much. Perhaps the nut was too tight on mine to begin with? At this point, I don't feel like sending it in for tuning, but that may be the solution in the future. Pete Brown << Pete, either you have a damaged bearing(s) or an out of spec spindle. Try this. Take an ordinary screwdriver, preferably one with a wooden handle. Put the business end against the headstock. Put the end of the handle against your ear. You now have a cheap toolmaker's stethoscope. Listen at the bottom of the headstock where the lower bearing is. Listen at the top of the headstock where the upper bearing is. Vary your speed when you listen from very slow, medium, and then at top speed. Write down what you hear... Contact Sherline (Craig Libuse). If you hear just a slight whirring sound and not too much vibrations, the bearing may be OK. If you hear "rocks", the bearings have to be replaced. Don't make more than one change at a time so you can know what the problem was/is. Also, do an isolation bit by loosening up and taking the drive belt out of play, and then run the motor by itself. Gently try to move the spindle up and down to see if there is any play. Try to move the spindle by holding the top and the bottom to see if it "rocks", also gently. Rotate the spindle by hand and see if it turns freely with no "binding". Use a DTI to measure play... Be a detective... Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 02:24:54 -0000 From: "Antonius J.M. Groothuizen" Subject: Re: How you calibrate X Y Z axis ? help.... newnewbie You've hit my pet peeve with the Sherline instructions. I'm going to use Z(column) - X(table length) to illustrate my point. Using a DTI to check for square in Z-X by mounting it in the spindle and taking measurements to the surface of the table is sheer lunacy. Here's why... The difference in readings can come from one of two sources. Either the column is not square to the table, OR the headstock is not square to the column. You need to separate these two sources of error to quickly and easily set up your mill. To check the squareness of the column to the table, lightly clamp (finger tight is plenty) a machinist's square to the table, its short arm parallel to the X-Axis as shown in figure 21 of the fifth edition of the manual. Run the headstock up and down the column to perform this alignment. It does not matter if the headstock is not aligned with the column for this step, as the error due to this factor is angular and not a varying linear value. Once you have the column square to the table, you can square the head- stock with the spindle. Use the setup in figure 19 of the fifth edition of the manual. There now is only one possible source of misalignment. The Z-Y alignment is performed in a much the same manner. The only differences are that the short arm of the square is now parallel to the Y-Axis (table width), and the measurement/adjustment points change. Although the diagrams are for the 2000 Mill, the 5000 series adjustment is very similar. Tony ------- Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:44:18 -0000 From: "mr_mike_lucek" Subject: Used mill problems I picked up a used 5000 mill from eBay a few weeks ago. Finally getting around to putting it back together. Just ran across a problem, grrrrrrrrr. (Refering to the exploded diagram of the 5000 mill at http://sherline.com/MillExPN.pdf) The holes in the headstock casing (part #40100) where the motor bracket (part #40020) screws on appear to be stripped. The screws are the 10-32 x 3/8" socket head cap screws (part #40510). Is the simple way to remedy this problem to drill/tap the next size up ? Guess I could try new screws in there first just to make sure it's not the screws themselves. There appears to be some flashing on one of the screws that maybe the stripped thread from the hole ?? ------- Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2004 01:00:33 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Used mill problems Mike, there is a very simple fix for this problem. Clean the threads of both holes with a 10x32 tap. Then install 10-32 x .750" Allen screws. The head stock has almost .700" of thread in it. It is my personal opinion that the .375" long screws are too short, and should be replaced with longer screws even if they are not giving a problem Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:17:15 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Used mill problems Mike, the link is not working. But, I looked in the book. The headstock is Aluminum 1. Gently run a 10-32 tap into the holes. Blow out any debris. 2. Then try two new screws. 3. Put a little Super Lube on the screw threads. 4. Do this without the bracket. 5. Screw in the new screws as far as they will go. 6. When they bottom, put some more torque on them. 7. If the screws just turn with little or no resistance or snap back , the hole is probably stripped. 8. Get some helicoil inserts (10-32) & a tap for 10-32 helicoil inserts. 9. Carefully drill and tap for the inserts. Then you should be back in business. Going to the next size is a possible catch 22. The inserts will give you a reliable thread. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 17:12:02 -0000 From: "cameronmoeller2002" Subject: Pocketing on a 5400 mill Hello Everyone, I am working on building a small 'combat robot' on my new 5400 mill that I received for Christmas from my parents. I was wondering how to go about pocketing a part (by pocketing, I mean, removing a 'pocket' of metal inside the part). The metal is 6061 aluminum, and the pocket needs to be about .08in deep, .5in wide, 2in long. I've done two of the parts already, but the process I've been using takes a good two hours by the time it's done. What I've been do is, using a 1/8in endmill at about 1500 rpms, I lower the z-axis about .007 and make a cut across the whole size of the pocket, then I repeat a few times going down about .007 each cut. When I tried a larger endmill, the table shook (I can't lock it, cause the table must be moved to pocket the part). Also, when I lower the z-axis, sometimes there is a bit of "backlash", at the beginning of the cut, it's hardly removing any metal, but by the end, I am taking out a noticeably larger amount of metal. Do any of you have any ideas on how I could speed up the process? Thanks in advance, Cameron Moeller ------- Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 12:51:02 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Pocketing on a 5400 mill Cameron, my suggestion. Since you are using a 1/8" end mill you have a 1/16" radius in the corners of your pocket. 1. First, drill a relief blind hole at the corners of the pocket (smaller than 1/8" ) I suggest a # 33 (.113" Diameter) that will give the end mill about .0065" to clean up. Go down about .075" ( measuring from the point of the drill) to allow the end mill to clean up later. 2. Take a 1/8" end cutting end mill and plunge mill in each of the corners to .078" depth. 3. Work out the rest of the pocket at .078" depth a little at a time.... (do you know about climb milling?) something to be avoided since it tend to pull the work into the cutter. 4. For the finish, go down to the .080" depth and complete the pocket. How are you holding your part? I would use a larger end mill, say 1/4" (.250") and run around the pocket taking not more than .005" at a time. Then finish with the 1/8" end mill if that is the radius you want.... Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. That size pocket in that material should not take two hours.... ------- Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:27:47 -0000 From: "cameronmoeller2002" Subject: Re: Pocketing on a 5400 mill Jerry, thank you so much for the suggestion! > 3. Work out the rest of the pocket at .078" depth a little at a time. (do you know about climb milling?) Yes, I know what climb milling is. > How are you holding your part? I'm holding it in the Sherline vise, using parallels. > That size pocket in that material should not take two hours.... Before you replied, I read up on the Sherline site and in the various instruction manuals I have for the mill, and I realized that there is a nifty little thing called a "saddle nut." I locked it to insure the Z-axis stayed in place, as opposed to before where it would periodically either, stay in place, or drop to its depth half way through the cut, forcing me to go around the cut a second time. By using the saddle nut, I finished pocketing one of the parts in about 1hour, as opposed to the nearly 2 hours before. Again, thanks! Cameron Moeller ------- Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:53:05 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Re: Pocketing on a 5400 mill Cameron, you are very welcome. Glad I was able to help. BTW, the "saddle nut" (part number 40177) is not the column locking lever (part number 40175) that you must have used to lock the saddle of the Z axis. (Correct nomenclature is important for good communication when getting info.) When setting the depth, it is good to push down on the saddle as you lock the lever. This will counteract backlash and not have your cutter (actually the saddle) creep down. However, if your cutter is not securely locked in a collet or an endmill holder, that can occur. I always pull the end mill down against the flat ground in it's side before I lock it with the setscrew. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 19:17:24 -0600 From: "Jason Richards" Subject: Installing DRO Ack! I'm trying to get the Z axis handwheel off- I cant get it loose! Is there something different about it than the X/Y handwheels that I have to get it loose? Should just have to loosen the setscrew under the adjustable zero dial yes? ARRGHH! Thanks! Jason ------- Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2005 01:42:56 -0000 From: "n2562001" Subject: Re: Installing DRO Jason: On the newer mills there will be a small set screw with a washer that will need to be removed on the end of the lead screw. (Top center of the handwheel) You will also need to loosen the screw under the zero dial. Jerry Kieffer ------- Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:05:01 -0500 From: "Jerry G" Subject: Re: Re: Installing DRO > Jerry- I got that one out, but this thing is on tight- I suppose I can > start prying Jason, don't pry, make yourself a little wheel puller. Just make sure the set screws are removed first or you will gall up the shaft it is tight on. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 22:50:55 -0600 From: "Jason Richards" Subject: Re: Re: Installing DRO I got it off- the original handwheel had been installed so tightly that it had set up a burr on the shaft. What a pain. Thanks for the quick response! J ------- From: Dave Hylands Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 1:21 am Subject: Re: [sherline] Tooling plate question from newbie > I'm thinking of the A2Z 4"x13" ($53.50 + S&H), but am > open to any other suggestions/advice/warnings. Hi Bill, Pete Brown did a writeup over here: http://www.irritatedvowel.com/Railroad/Workshop/A2ZTable.aspx I did a page here: http://www.davehylands.com/Machinist/Long-Table/ I really like mine. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- From: Dave Hylands Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 8:53 am Subject: Re: [sherline] Tooling plate question from newbie > As to the tooling plate questions, the sited reviews > were for the long travel version, since I deal mainly > in smaller scale projects, I'm basically looking for a > way to... > > 1. protect the mill from the hamfisted > operator(...i.e. me!) and > 2. have a better way to mount my projects/rotary > table/vise/etc than just the t-slots. > I appreciate any info/tips/insights on a "regular" > tooling plate (i.e. Sherlines, or A2Z or Hi-tech's)and thanks again! Hi Bill. When I first bought my mill, a machinist friend of mine strongly suggested getting the tooling plate and using it for the increased rigidity. So I did. There's a photo of my tooling plate here: If you look closely, you can see about 8 divots where I drilled too deeply. I often use a sacrificial plate, like the one pictured here: http://www.davehylands.com/Machinist/Long-Table/02-Tapped-Holes.html so that I don't need to worry about going through. You can see that the sacrificial plate has holes on the same grid as the tooling plate which makes clamping stuff easy. I also often use tempered hardboard, which is available in 1/8" and 1/4" thicknesses. Tempered Hardboard is very smooth on both sides and is normally available in 2'x4' sheets from Home Depot. I cut it up into smaller pieces that I use as a sacrificial plate. I have two sets of the Step-Block hold down set: http://www.sherline.com/3013pg.htm and I find these invaluable. I realized I don't have any photos which show the hardboard sacrificial plates in use. I'll have to remember to take a photo the next time I use one. So that's what I do to keep my table from being machined :) I also got a High Tech Systems tooling plate, but I don't like the amount of Y room it takes away. If I had that as my primary tooling plate and since I have the long travel table, I would drill some mounting holes that screw into the mounting holes on the table rather than the T-track mounts currently provided. This would allow the back of the tooling plate to be much closer to the back of the table, giving maximum Y travel. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- From: Dave Hylands Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 3:29 am Subject: A couple more minor projects [sherline group] Hi, a super simple project that I should have done a long time ago: http://www.davehylands.com/Machinist/Projects/Tapping-Block/ and a simple mod to a tooling plate: http://www.davehylands.com/Machinist/Modifications/Tooling-Plate/ Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- From: "JERRY G" Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 7:30 am Subject: Re: [sherline] A couple more minor projects Dave: While browsing through your stuff, I saw something about a quick way to square up a vise. Here is what I do on the Sherline with the Sherline milling vise. Just put the vise on the mill table and push the back up against the mill column. Snug down on the screws (four clamps, 2 fore and 2 aft to minimize the chance of distortion). You will find that the solid jaw is pretty close to parallel to the back of the vise. Refine with a DTI. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- From: Dave Hylands Date: Fri Aug 5, 2005 8:23 am Subject: Re: [sherline] A couple more minor projects Hi Jerry, that sounds like a nice simple method. The setup tool was one that was described in Doug Briney's book, and is a nifty little device if you don't happen to own a proper machinist's square. I never did finish the project. It got about as far as what you see in the photos. Somewhere along the way I picked up a set of 2", 3", and 4" machinist's squares. Somebody asked about that particular project which is why I even bothered to post the pictures. Now, when I mount my tooling plate, I spend some time to indicate the leading edge in and get it under a thou across the width of the tooling plate (about 10" wide). So my current procedure is to slap down a square, and line up the long edge of the vise along that. Like you, I alsways use 4 clamps. If I cared, I'd then go and indicate the fixed jaw, as you suggest. Dave Hylands ------- NOTE TO FILE: You have probably noticed that new entries in the Sherline various files slowed to a trickle during 2005. Reasons include: (1) many topics are being rehashed for the umpteenth time, and have already been answered in the group or in files here; (2) while I believe that most buyers are acquiring manual machines, they already have or find good information about their machines and their operation, and thus rarely need to ask questions to the group; (3) the minority of new buyers are opting for the far more expensive and complicated CNC versions that have a great many variations of hardware and software, that are being constantly revised and outdated; consequently they ask almost all the questions to the group; (4) not surprisingly, the manual machine owners like myself have to wade through tons of irrelevant computer/electronic gobbledygook and find very little new information of value to us; (5) so when I need more machining information, that is not specific to the Sherline brand, I also look in other groups and keep the information in more generic machining files for everyone's benefit. While I appreciate the existence of CNC and utility of computers (having been a software programmer in one prior life), in my hobbies I just prefer the hands-on feel of manually operated machines and hand filing and the swish of a century-old wood plane taking a translucent shaving off a walnut board. Some pleasures just don't get any better than that. ------- From: "JERRY G" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 3:55 pm Subject: Re: [sherline] Sherline 5400 Mill Adjustment sequence >>I live in Louisiana and last August the storm decided to put most of my tools under water for a few days. Anyway, after cleaning and replacing all the rusted parts. Actually only the motors on the mill rusted on the shafts. I tore the mill down and cleaned all the debris out and lubed and reassembled it. Amazingly enough, no extra pieces were left over. However, for the last two weeks I've struggled to get the backlash/gibs/saddlenuts under control and set back to pre-hurricane settings. I've gotten the y-axis to consistently have .005 thousands of backlash, however the x-axis is eating my lunch. Is there a preferred sequence for adjustments? For example, cross slide nut, gibs, then backlash or do I do two only then the third after the first two are set. I'm not a machinist by training or talent, but the 5400 prior to the storm was running just .003 on each of x and y, with .005 on z. Now I'm at .005 on y and z, and from .006 to .015 on x depending on how long it runs. It seems to loosen within a few movements of setting it. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Doug << Doug: For starters, maybe this will help. Backlash is not a function of the gib adjustment. It is simply play due to wear, or maladjustment between the lead screw and nut combination. I would adjust the gibs first to have the slide in question move smoothly without binding, jerking, or slop. (excessive play) Then, the backlash is adjusted with the anti-backlash nuts until you have it within the .003" to .005" mentioned by Sherline. Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. Sounds like the lock for the anti backlash nut is working loose. Have you checked the screw that locks the handwheel? Lost motion possible due to this. -------- From: "tresark" Date: Tue Jan 3, 2006 10:51 pm Subject: Re: Sherline 5400 Mill Adjustment sequence Thanks Jerry. Ignoring the gibs and working with the anti-backlash nuts, proved the x-axis locking star nut was camming out from the anti-backlash nut. I rotated the star nut to another position and it seems to be holding. I went ahead and ordered replacements. I guess my numerous adjustments over the last week or two was about all the thing could take in one spot. ------- From: Ron Ginger Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 8:52 am Subject: Re:Sherline 5400 Mill Adjustment sequence JERRY G said: >Backlash is not a function of the gib adjustment. >It is simply play due to wear, or maladjustment between the lead screw >and nut combination. This is not the whole story- I have found the play between the handwheel and the thrust collar to be as big a problem as the screw backlash. There is simply a shoulder on the lead screw pushing aginst one side of the collar, and the handwheel is pushed back against it and the set screw tightened. There MUST be some looseness here, or you couldn't turn the leadscrew. It's very hard to make this adjustment with a set screw which often wants to fall back into its old dimple. The CNC conversions add a ball bearing here, with a nut to adjust the pre-load. This make a precise way to adjust the end play, and in fact to get zero end play and still be able to turn the screw. ron ginger ------- From: "JERRY G" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 9:30 am Subject: Re:Sherline 5400 Mill Adjustment sequence Ron, I kept it simple for a novice. so he would understand the source. To alleviate the "dimple problem", make a shim between the shoulder and the collar. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- From: "Carol & Jerry Jankura" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 9:57 am Subject: Re:Sherline 5400 Mill Adjustment sequence Hi, Ron & Jerry G.: I seem to recall that someone - Al Lenz, I think - put a set of bearings on the Z axis of a manual Sherline mill. Pictures and drawings should be in the files area. Jerry Jankura TurboCNC Development Team ------- From: "JERRY G" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 10:19 am Subject: Re:Sherline 5400 Mill Adjustment sequence Jerry J, Sounds like a good idea, due to the weight of the saddle/head. Did my homework, and Al Lenz put it in on July 20, 2000, and a revised one on Jan. 7, 2003. I don't know what he did during the interval! :) Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- From: Peter Linss Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 1:37 pm Subject: Re:Sherline 5400 Mill Adjustment sequence Just to clarify here, the Z-axis of the manual machines do come with a ball bearing from the factory, modern machines also have a screw through the center of the handwheel into the leadscrew to add some support (and possibly a little preload). Al Lenz's mod was to replace the single ball bearing with two preloaded ball bearings like how the CNC couplings work. Peter ------- From: "JERRY G" Date: Wed Jan 4, 2006 3:32 pm Subject: Re:Sherline 5400 Mill Adjustment sequence Peter: Is that factory supplied ball bearing purely a radial bearing? I know a radial bearing can take a certain amount of thrust loads. And there are angular contact radial ball bearings. Do you know exactly what bearings Sherline uses? Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- From: Wayne Brandon Date: Thu Jan 5, 2006 11:14 am Subject: Re:Sherline 5400 Mill Adjustment sequence Jerry G: The ball bearing on the Z axis lead screw of my 2000 is strictly a thrust bearing carrying the "weight' of the headstock, motor, etc. The lower thrust bearing is just the shoulder on the end of the lead screw. Wayne Jerry G. replies: > Thanks, Wayne...I have the 2000, so I guess I have the same arrangement. ------- Fly Cutter [sherline] Posted by: "bushman31x~xxaol.com" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 6:24 pm (PDT) I am almost embarrassed to ask this, but here it goes. Please keep in mind that up to this point I have been using my machines on wood. Today I was doing some fly cutting on some mild steel. I was cutting from right to left on the material (moving the cross slide to the right). I was taking shallow cuts, and the chips were coming out in curls. The problem was that the operation would cause the motor to "jolt" back and forth. It didn't seem to effect the headstock itself, and the cutting left a smooth surface on the metal every time. I checked the mounts and they were all tight. I used about 1/4 speed and light lubricant. Could I still be taking too deep of a cut. I was doing about .004 cuts. Thanks, Ron Wilkinson Great Salt Lake Ship Modeling and Research Society Nautical Research Guild Society for Nautical Research ------- Re: Fly Cutter Posted by: "jamodeo1x~xxpacbell.net" Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 9:19 pm (PDT) >the chips were coming out in curls. Ron: That's good speed and feed! >the motor "jolted back and forth". Is that the drive belt skipping or the motor stalling? Joe ------- Re: Fly Cutter Posted by: "Orrin Iseminger" oisemingx~xxmoscow.com Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 9:24 pm (PDT) Seeing as how fly cutting frequently is intermittent, I would expect your motor to behave as it did. The belt tension was bouncing from almost-zero load to a heavy load every revolution. If the motor lugged down while the cutting edge was working, you might consider a lighter cut. If it wasn't lugging down and you were satisfied with the finish, everything ought to be fine. I've seen some serious flycutting where swarf was flying all over the place. I'm a sissy and like to keep the RPMs down. Remember, a flycutter is sweeping a fairly large circle, so you'll need to keep your RPM down to keep your surface feet per minute in an acceptable range. Your rate of feed will also have a big effect on the behavior of your motor. Remember, a fly cutter has only one cutting edge, not two, three or four like conventional mills. Therefore, your rate of flycutter feed will seem comparatively slow. Regards, Orrin Iseminger Colton, Washington, USA http://users.moscow.com/oiseming/lc_ant_p/index.htm ------- Re: Fly Cutter Posted by: "Tony Horstman" tonyx~xxoryx.net.au Date: Sun Oct 8, 2006 9:49 pm (PDT) Ron, I had the same problem recently on aluminium, and found that by adjusting cut diameter, depth and speed, I could reduce the jolt, but there were clearly points where the harmonics of the way the machine was mounted exacerbated the movement. I changed over to a round drive belt (see earlier posts re noise), which probably allowed a little slippage, removed the rubber feet from the baseboard and bolted it down and the fly cutting was really good. I figure the extra stiffness helped. Tony H ------- Re: Fly Cutter Posted by: "Jim Knighton" jimknightonx~xxworldnet.att.net Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 12:37 am (PDT) Ron: A couple of thoughts. Certainly, speeds and feeds can be the source of your problem. Just for grins, however, check to make sure your pulley isn't slipping. I've had it loosen on me a couple of times and the resulting "jolt" is certainly disconcerting - and easily fixed. Anyway, If the problem persists, give me a call and come try your operation on one of my mills. Regards, Jim ------- Re: Fly Cutter Posted by: "Jerry Glickstein" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 11:09 am (PDT) Hi Ron: On fly cutters, they tend to deflect and bounce due to the extension of the toolbit. The main factors that determine good results are: The clearance angles (rakes) ground into the tool bit. The rpm, and the feed in relation to the rpm, and another important factor is the nose radius ground into the tool. If you exceed the width of the nose radius (with your feed) you will not get a smooth homogenous finish. Also, if the head is not "trammed in" (set perpendicular to the table/work with a DTI,) you will create a "cove" that will be equal to the sweep of your tool bit. Place a good straight edge across a fly cut surface to check for any "dips"....Or use the DTI to measure the concavity. Now that I have said all this, have you checked into P/N 7620, which is the single flute inserted carbide tip fly cutter available from Sherline? It is closer to a shell mill, which is my tool of choice over a fly cutter. Plus, it can cut up to a 90 degree shoulder. I have no commercial connection. The Table Top Machine Shop also sells it and they are 5% cheaper...Same disclaimer. I do not consider .004" too heavy a cut. But, if you are looking for a fine finish, try a few "spring" cuts, and cut in both directions. i.e. From east to west and then from west to east. An indication of a good condition will show a criss cross pattern on the surface of your work. The "curls" do not necessarily reflect a good condition, and in some instances, can provide a safety hazard. However, it is a simple matter to grind a chipbreaker into the tool bit. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Fly Cutter Posted by: "Richard L. Wurdack" dickwx~xxnwlink.com Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 1:51 pm (PDT) Most excellent, Jerry. I am quite happy with my 7620. Dick ------- Re: Fly Cutter Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 2:29 pm (PDT) Hi Dick: While I do not have the 7620, I can see the merits of it. It all boils down to the application...That is the keyword. Sometimes, a fly cut finish is sufficient. And, if a better finish is required (or flatness and parallelism), we go into removing the tool marks by grinding, polishing with successively finer grades of Silicon Carbide, (when finishing metals) lapping and/or scraping. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Fly Cutter Posted by: "Richard L. Wurdack" dickwx~xxnwlink.com Date: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:40 am (PDT) Quite right, Jerry, the application is key. The 7620 will only cut a 1.125 path. When I need to cut something wider in a single pass I use the 3052 which swings over 2 inches. D. ------- Re: Fly Cutter Posted by: "bushman31x~xxaol.com" Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 6:14 pm (PDT) Thanks for all the input. The mill is mounted directly to my work bench. The motor didn't lug or stall, it just bounced every time the cutter hit the work piece. The headstock didn't move at all though. I am using the carbide cutter that came with the fly cutter. As Jerry suggested, I checked the piece for any dips in the surface with a couple of machinist squares, and the surface was flat. All in all the cut was excellent with a smooth surface. I kept the rpm's about 300-400, and I have no idea what the feed rate was (that will probably be a good question, how do you determine your feed rate without CNC?). After looking at the cutter with the carbide insert, a thought came to my head. I have the tip of the cutter extended about 1/2" from the holder. Is this too far out? I will check out the tension of the belt, and look into getting P/N7620. Ron Wilkinson ------- Re: Fly Cutter Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Oct 9, 2006 6:42 pm (PDT) Hi Ron. You asked: "How do you determine the feed rate without CNC?" Here is the way I would do that... Measure the sweep/radius that your cutter is set to. Just touch off at the end/edge of your workpiece. Now, using a stop watch that reads in small increments of a minute, etc. Take a cut, and note the time it takes you to traverse the part. Do the math, and you will have the feed rate. At 300-400 RPM with a single tooth cutter, you can determine the feed rate by dividing the time and the distance... There is a formula for the relationship. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. Things were made, and figured out BEFORE CNC..... :) P.P.S. Hi Ron, I don't do this for everyone, but, since you are a fellow ship modeler, go here and put your info in..... :) http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-turning.htm ------- Motor bounce from fly cutting Posted by: "bushman31x~xxaol.com" Date: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:08 am (PDT) As you may recall, a couple of weeks ago I posted a question concerning my motor trying to knock itself off every time the fly cutter contacted the workpiece. While at the NRG conference I talked to Craig Libuse, from Sherline, about it. He told me to check the hexagon pedestals that mount the motor to the "L" bracket. This is accessible by opening the speed control cover. Sure enough, one was very loose. After tightening my problems went away. Ron Wilkinson ------- Mill Tool Plate Question [sherline] Posted by: "Joe Enriquez" jejesaltboxx~xxverizon.net Date: Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:05 am ((PST)) Hey All, I'm within a month of purchasing a model 2000 Sherline mill. Question- Is the mill tool plate a good investment? Which is better quality wise? Sherline #3560 A2Z TPS4X10 Thanks for your input. Joe ------- Re: Mill Tool Plate Question Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" tutankhamunx~xxmsn.com Date: Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:39 am ((PST)) Since the A2Z is a direct copy of the Sherline and usually available at a lower price, it would look like an obvious choice. I have no experience with the Sherline plate, but I do have an A2Z plate which I have been happy with although I did have to chase a couple of the holes out with a tap. Is the plate a good investment? It depends if the job at hand will stand to lose another half inch between spindle and table; if so then it is a lot less expensive to replace the tooling plate than the table if there is an "oops!" Hope that helps? Martin ------- Mill Accuracy [sherline] Posted by: "rogpf44" rogpf44x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Feb 14, 2007 5:47 pm ((PST)) I have never had any problems with the accuracy of my Sherline mill, but I now need to machine a part that has to be "perfect". Or as close as I can get it to perfect anyway. Indicating the table in to insure that the spindle is 90 degrees to the table, I found that the X axis is fine, but the Y is off a little. This is after making sure everything is clean and tightened properly; indicator is parallel to the table, and moving through a circle. My question is, where should I shim to obtain the accuracy that I need, the four screws holding the column, or the base? After using Sherlines for over 15 years, this is the first time that I have been presented with this problem and I am not sure the best way to proceed. Thank you Ernie ------- Re: Mill Accuracy Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxadelphia.net Date: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:47 pm ((PST)) Ernie: If it were I doing it, I would shim the base rather than the column. When I received my 5400, the column was fastened to the base block (part #50050) and all I had to do was bolt the base to the block. If I loosened the column screws the column would have the opportunity to rock either left or right and would be very hard to get back straight. On the other hand, If I loosen the base block, the worst that can happen is that the column MIGHT be able to rotate slightly on its vertical axis. My thinking is that this will cause far less of an alignment problem than if I have the column tilt. I'm pretty sure that even if the column is not perfectly aligned about its vertical axis, shimming to remove Y axis error will work just fine. Alan Haisley ------- Re: EZ Tram [sherline] Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Mar 2, 2007 10:14 am ((PST)) "Ray Zdan" wrote: > > I too would be interested in any opinions concerning the EZ tram In my view, the EZ Tram is a solution in search of a problem. Accurately traming a Sherline mill with an indicator and a piece of plate glass is so quick and easy, I just can't see the point in spending the money on a fixture to do the same thing. See my photo at: http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/photos/view/9022?b=9 regards, DC ------- Adjuster for Axis #8 [sherline] Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:08 pm ((PDT)) Hello Group: Here's a suggestion of a design for an adjuster for #8 http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/photos/view/9022?b=20 I'm not going to make it, but anyone is welcome to use the idea. I will claim no copyright or other rights to the design. To make things simple, I've designed all of the parts to be made from bar or plate stock. Details and dimensions can pretty much be inferred from the model. The only modification to existing hardware is to mill a flat and drill and tap some holes on the side of the Movable Clamping Ring (p/n 35170), and drill and tap some holes in the top of the Swing Arm (p/n 56220). As Young Frankenstein (the real me) said: "It Could WORK!!" Best regards, DC ------- NOTE TO FILE: There is an interesting conversation about tramming a mill in the Sherline group's archives starting in March 2007. While the subject of tramming/alignment has been recorded several times in the Sherline and Taig mill files on my site, part of this new conversation was specific to the proper use of dial indicators (or dial test indicators) for tramming and those portions have been recorded on this site in the file "Indicating and Measuring" starting March 12, 2007. Well worth a look for some new tips. ------- Re: Fly Cutting [sherline] Posted by: "Eric" buckeyevsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:39 pm ((PDT)) "paris_tj" wrote: > Hello everyone, it has been a long while since I have got to work with > my mill and I am trying to do fly cutting for the first time. I done a > small peice today but it doesn't look good at all. I was under the > impression that it would leave a decent finish. Is this correct? What > should it look like. What kind of cut depth and feed rate? Thanks Donald The cut depth I use is no more than .005, .001 for a finish pass. The feed depends on the RPMs, but I usually move at about 5IPM. The appearance is a very smooth and flat surface with cutter swing radii. If radii are all arched one direction then the mill is not square. If you have tool marks that form an x toward the +/- Y of the swing then your mill is very square and you should check the cutter edge. The actual appearance of the surface will depend on the cutter geometry and edge quality. If you are getting straight lines in the surface on the circumference of the cutter swing, then your mill is not square and you should consider a re-tram before fly cutting. ------- Re: Fly Cutting Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:23 am ((PDT)) There are some differences of opinion on this. Joe Martin's book recommends .010 cuts at 2000 rpm for best finish. I'll do that on a full size mill, but it's a bit more stressful than I like to run my Sherline. I like to go slow and easy. Those in production, especially, will push things much more that I do. I'm more inclined to Eric's view; a few thousandths at around 600 rpm, feed rate maybe 4. I know I'm being a little vague, depends mightily on the alloy. Best thing is to experiment yourself. Also, when flycutting, start and finish off the edge of the workpiece. Don't lower the cutter onto the work. As always, make sure your cutter is sharp and everything securely fastened. DC ------- Re: Fly Cutting Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:02 am ((PDT)) Hi Donald, David, A few tips on fly cutting.... Together with what David said...Only have the cutter extended enough to cover the width of your work. As far as a sharp cutter, a nose radius of about .005" is very good. A good rule of thumb is to have a nose radius that is a little larger than your feed....Also, sometimes a sympathetic vibration in the machine can occur...In that case, vary the RPM.... The material that is being cut is an important factor....Some benefit with a cutting fluid...Always cut in the direction that sends the chips away from you. And safety goggles are a must! Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Fly Cutting Posted by: "Donald Neisler" dneislerx~xxdonald-neisler.com Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:10 am ((PDT)) Thanks Eric. Dreadfully I have never trammed my mill, I always get confused when I try. The finish I got was very rough. I could move the fly cutter on to the piece at about 3IPM and the front side would not cut the metal, but the back side would. So I think I am out of square for sure. Any good article with pics on tramming? ------- Re: Fly Cutting Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:24 am ((PDT)) Hi Donald: Do you have a Dial Test Indicator? After the cut, check the concave surface left by the sweep of the fly cutter on the "back side". Measure across the width of the "cove". That means the head is tilted. Adjust a little to favor the direction. Cut and check again. Keep refining this until you cut no "cove" and the cutter leaves you a nice finish, depending on the cutter condition. When you have set it properly, you should have a nice surface finish with criss cross radii at the sweep of your fly cutter. There is always a little "spring cut" as the cutter relaxes, with no more infeed of the Z axis. That is normal. Take a pass or two in both directions to observe what I mean. Then, put your DTI away. You have "trammed" with no confusion... :) Always pull the plug when checking/measuring. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Fly Cutting Posted by: "Donald Neisler" dneislerx~xxdonald-neisler.com Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:05 pm ((PDT)) Ok, I tried to remove my fly cutter today and I need a 5# sledge before it would come out. I could see the z axis of the mill moving so I figure I need to solve this problem or tramming it is usless. So is this normal? How does everyone get the bits out easier? ------- Re: Fly Cutting Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxadelphia.net Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:49 pm ((PDT)) Donald, I have found that it takes very little torque on the drawbar for either the flycutter or the Jacobs chuck. I'd say that you are using way too much force when you put it in. I use a small hammer, made years ago by Exacto and weighing only an ounce or two and only need a couple of taps to loosen either of these. I haven't used either milling collets or WW collets and so can't comment on either inserting or removing them. Perhaps someone like Jerry K, who uses these a lot, can address the proper tightening and removing of the collets. Alan Haisley ------- Re: Fly Cutting Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:52 am ((PDT)) Hi Donald, I agree with Alan. You're tightening the fly cutter way more than it needs to be tightened. I use the little brass hammer I made here: http://davehylands.com/Machinist/Projects/Brass-Mallet/Small/15-Fin ished-Mallet.html and it normally only takes a couple of raps with that to loosen. When I tighten, I first tighten finger tight, and then a bit more to make things snug, probably between 1/8 turn and 1/4 turn (although I do it by feel and not by how much I turn). Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Re: Fly Cutting / and removal therof Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:54 pm ((PDT)) Suggestion: Make or buy a suitable pair of taper wedges to put between the fly cutter body and the spindle nose. Don't "hammer" anything. They are also known as "drifts"....(which are "horses of a different color). Clamping the large ends of the taper wedges exerts enough force to "break" the taper. Take the draw bar out,of course... :) Put a soft cloth under the fly cutter (and on the table) to catch it. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Fly Cutting Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:24 am ((PDT)) See sherline tip #14 http://sherline.com/tip14.htm This has worked entirely satisfactorily for me and costs next to nothing in cash or effort. My implementation of this is visible in my photo: http://tech.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/photos/view/9022?b=7 Tip #15 has some other ideas, which seem to me overly elaborate. The way I was trained: tapered tools are held entirely by friction, the screw/draw bar is basically a safety measure. It's essential that both parts of the taper are perfectly clean and free of scratches and burrs. (Polish them out with a stone.) Put the tool in and give it a light tap with that 2-3 ounce brass hammer. A light tap means about the same force as dropping the hammer a few inches. This will seat the taper. The drawbar then need be hardly more than finger tight. When seating a chuck, the jaws should be wide open so you're hitting the body, not the jaws. (NB: If your mill cannot withstand such a light tap and maintain its alignment, I submit there's no way it could withstand the forces involved in machining.) Collets are a different story. They need to be pulled tight in order to grip. If you're using the WW collets, tap in the adapter then tighten the drawbar with its knurled handle. The adapter can be pushed out with the nut from tip #14. (That, I surmise, is what the flange is for. There was some discussion in an earlier thread of removing this flange. I never understood the point of that.) Note that all of the above works on either the lathe or mill. BTW, if you doubt that tools are held entirely by friction in the taper, consider that the drill chuck in the lathe tail stock has no drawbar or safety screw. DC ------- Re: Fly Cutting Posted by: "montanaaardvark" boblombardix~xxcfl.rr.com Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:27 pm ((PDT)) This is going to sound completely neanderthal compared to some of what's been posted, but I have a plywood square that I set on the table and then lower the mill headstock onto. I lower the headstock until it is in firm contact with the wood, which supports the headstock in both X and Y axes. Then I loosen the drawbar until it's about 1/4" above the end of the bore it's sitting in. One or two light taps with a another block of wood, or a brass hammer, sets it free. The plywood square is 3/4" plywood, about 2" on each side of the square, and 4 or 5" long along the seam. Bob ------- Re: Fly Cutting / and removal therof Posted by: "Tom Bank" trbankx~xxpaonline.com Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:55 am ((PDT)) Donald, I agree with Jerry G. If you have tightened something into a taper mount to the point where a few mild raps with an appropriately small hammer or mallet won't loosen it, using wedges is the way to go. Other than that, I would take the head off the mill with the single set screw on the side of the head, lay it on a towel on the bench and then work on it. You might even be able to loosen the fly cutter with another rap or two with the mallet or a small hammer once it is off the mill. Retramming the mill head is not as big a job as getting the Z axis itself trammed correctly and should not be thought of as a "once done -- done for life" operation. There are a number of operations that require turning the mill head 90 degrees to make a cut, after which you need to tram the head again. My point? The tramming operation is something to get used to. Do it a couple of times and you will develop a knack, plus a certain pride in your ability. Some people use plate glass to run an indicator sweep for tramming. I have a precision ground steel donut plate that I picked up for about $5.00 at Cabin Fever a couple years ago. It works nicely, but I now realize that the plate glass has the advantage of not rusting. Another item that would help in tramming is the homemade Co-Axial Indicator described in Guy Lautard's Third Machinist's Bedside Reader. It has the advantage of keeping the reading dial of the indicator facing you as you tram the mill head (or center a hole, etc.). Chasing the indicator dial around in circles with smoke and mirrors (the smoke comes out my ears) as you try to tram gets old pretty quick. I have to get around to making a Sherline sized Co-Ax. My 2 cents (which, incidentally, is no longer worth a red cent!). Regards, Tom Bank ------- removing fly cutter or any other taper mounted accessory Posted by: "karlw144" karlw144x~xxaol.com Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:00 am ((PDT)) Just thread a 3/4 --16 nut(with a couple of tommy bar holes drilled in it) on the spindle before installing the taper acc. Then, after removing the drawbar, back the nut off, forcing the taper apart. No pounding at all; doesn't screw up trammed head. karl ------- Re: Fly Cutting / and removal therof Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxadelphia.net Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:51 pm ((PDT)) paris_tj wrote: > I was just working on my machine. I set the DTI to 0 on the left > side and the right side is +.0245" off. That seems like a lot. This > is being measured at about .5" from the end of the each of the table. > So where do I adjust at? The base or the 4 screws on the Z? My front > to back is about .0015 off which is pretty close. Paris: You don't want to adjust from the four screws when tramming the head. As Jerry says, it sounds as if you are missing the registration key. Assuming a 13" bed, you are showing 2 thousandths per inch. If the registration key is in the head, loosen the headstock retainer SLIGHTLY and try shifting the headstock in the direction that will reduce the error until the headstock is firm against the key. Now, as best you can, tighten the headstock screw firmly - using a normal Allen wrench I try to turn it hard but by the short end so I can't put on too much force. Now, measure again and see if it is better or worse. To continue this adjustment, you need some kind of blunt object, since the next step involves taking some of the tension off that mounting screw but not enough that the head wants to move, then striking it high or low on the side to get it to shift slightly. Then remeasure with the DTI. This process continues until your need for an accurate mill head is exactly balanced by your exhaustion. At that point, make sure to snug down the retainer screw and make chips or sawdust or whatever. The four screws would perhaps be used if the COLUMN itself were out of square with the mill bed. to check that, you need a machinist's square as well as a way to clamp a DTI to the head rather than the spindle. After careful positioning, you would run the Z axis up and down while reading the blade of the square. If the column is square, even if the mill head is cocked at an angle, the DTI reading will be constant. The Sherline web site has a full article on lining up a mill. It is a little hard to follow since they give the instructions for the 2000 and 5000 kinda mixed together, but the principles discussed should apply to any bench mill. Alan Haisley ------- Re: Fly Cutting / and removal therof Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:01 pm ((PDT)) Hi Paris: One other thing I thought of. The "pin" (key) is not "square" in that it is a good fit from the factory (on two parallel sides) but not "dead nuts". I believe it is a nominal 3/16" key, but, if you take it out and measure it with a "mike", you may find one dimension is .1865" or so, and the other dimension may be a couple of .001's smaller. Use the larger dimension in your slot, and then proceed as Alan so correctly suggested. Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following thread started on 16 Apr 2007 and messages may be found here in the Sherline Lathe Quirks or Tips file. Then the thread changed to the mill (but never changed subject title). ------- Re: 4400 lathe cross-slide binding/ Soap Box [sherline] Posted by: "bushman31x~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:19 pm ((PDT)) Okay, now back to Sherline. That clunk on my mills Y-axis is every full turn, when bringing the table towards the hand wheel (doesn't do it going towards the column). It happens when the handle is at about 10 o'clock. Since there is no binding or anything I think I will just leave it alone. I have spent the whole weekend trying to square up my mill. What a pain in the butt!! Every time I got one thing squared up, it screwed up something else. I THINK I got everything to within .0005". The one thing I have an issue with is the "built in" table error on the Y-Axis. Mine is about +.0025 towards the back of the table. I have no idea on how to account for this on the 5400 mill. Also, I noticed that the center of the table (between the T-slots) is about .001" higher than outside the T-slots. One more item. When fine tuning the headstock, using a machinist's square as described by Sherline, does this check work for the 5400 mill or just the mills with a rotating column? Ron Wilkinson Great Salt Lake Ship Modeling and Research Society ------- Re: 4400 lathe cross-slide binding/ Soap Box Posted by: "bushman31x~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:49 pm ((PDT)) Jerry Jankura toolzngluex~xxsbcglobal.net writes: > I'm curious. Is a Sherline mill capable of holding this kind of > squareness over any period of time? GOD, I hope so Jerry, but I don't think so. If I put some hand pressure on the table it will move it some, some measurements up to .001", but it springs back to zero. Ron Wilkinson ------- Re: 4400 lathe cross-slide binding/ Soap Box Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:47 pm ((PDT)) Hi Ron, "Everything within .0005" is quite respectable. On the "clunk"...Have you eyeballed the hand wheel itself? Is it "running" true? You may have a bent leadscrew. (Not you, I mean the machine... :) What do you mean by the built in error? (on the Y-axis) Are you talking about perpendicularity? On the "crown" of the table...Have you tried to shim a workplate with .001" shim to compensate? You could also ignore it, clamp a workplate on the table, flycut the workplate and then mount your work on it. On the use of a square (also consider how precise the square is) to "fine tune" the head, that will work for any mill, but you have to consider the 5400 column base is mounted with two screws to the mill base. Any change of perpendicularity would require; 1. Shimming between the two in the right direction; i.e. north to south for the Y-axis and east to west for the X-axis. 2. Scraping. I think it is time to put away your DTI, your square, and make some chips... :) Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: 4400 lathe cross-slide binding/ Soap Box Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:52 pm ((PDT)) Hey guys! Lighten up! It is just a mini mill. Made under a production basis. There will be tolerances. The idea is to overcome them. What comes out of the machine is your under your control... Manipulate, Man, Manipulate! :) Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: 4400 lathe cross-slide binding/ Soap Box Posted by: "bushman31x~xxaol.com" Date: Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:31 pm ((PDT)) Jerry G writes: > What do you mean by the built in error? (on the Y-axis) Jerry: In Sherline's little manual that they send with the machines, they talk about checking for "built in" error on table flatness. Mount a dial indicator in the spindle then move the table along the Y-axis. They say the error will be around .001-.002" in 3". Mine is .0025". On mills with the rotary column they show how to correct for this, but nothing for the 5400. I have the X and Y-axis within .0005 (actually the X-axis is less than that) of the column. When using the machinists square on the head I used 2 of them. One was an 8" square that was supposed to be +/- .00008 made in China accurate. I got a reading of +.003 as I moved up the Z-axis. On a smaller 6" square, I got from MicroMark and have no idea of the accuracy, I got a little deviation (.0005 max) but was pretty much zeroed the whole way up. I think I like MicroMark's better. I know the side of the blade on MicroMark's isn't perfectly vertical, so I had to do very minor adjustments to keep the point of the dti on the edge. Not sure what to think. But I agree with you Jerry, time to make more chips, in 4 days when I am off work again. By the way, I didn't install the new gibs yet or leadscrew nuts. They will have to wait until I feel like doing this again. Ron Wilkinson ------- 2000 mill Z-axis query. [sherline] Posted by: "Ron OConnor" connor.rx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Wed May 23, 2007 1:27 pm ((PDT)) I have a wee problem with the Z axis going off verticle when I drill holes. It starts leaning back. I suppose I could get my 2 foot breaker bar and really really tighten the nut, but I just don't like that idea. :) I am considering triangulating it. A brace from the top of the column to the back of the arm. Now the question is, what to use for a brace? Of course it has to be adjustable, but rigid. I was thinking of adapting an old inside mic, but I'm not sure that would be strong enough. Any thoughts? TIA Ron ------- Re: 2000 mill Z-axis query. Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net shipmodelmaker1931 Date: Wed May 23, 2007 5:06 pm ((PDT)) What model Sherline? How do you know it is "leaning back"? Before you go to a lot of work bracing, I would first find out exactly what is happening....The very simplest brace (if you must) would be a threaded rod.... with washers and nuts placed strategically. You can then pre load it. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: 2000 mill Z-axis query. Posted by: "Ron OConnor" connor.rx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Wed May 23, 2007 5:33 pm ((PDT)) I square it up using a Starrett 196 indicator and a large bearing race. (Large for a Sherline mill, not large as in bearings for ocean going liners.) After drilling a bunch of holes I noticed that those I drilled late in the day did not line up well with those I drilled earlier so I ran the 196 around the bearing race again. Lo and behold it was not as square as it was before. Left to right was fine, front to back was off. Threaded rod is a good idea. I was thinking the inside mic might help when tramming it. Ron ------- Re: 2000 mill Z-axis query. Posted by: "Eric" buckeyevsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed May 23, 2007 5:45 pm ((PDT)) Jerry, you must be tired or in a hurry, as you missed the model number in the title, heh. Ron, what size hole are you trying to drill, and into what material? Also, is the drill bit sharp? You may need to step the sizes up from a 1/16" or 1/8" drill to minimize the deformation force needed at the chisel point of the drill. Of course, split point drills help out quite a bit with our small machines, too. I'm not sure about bracing techniques. The thread rod Jerry suggested seems the best, as it is very adjustable and rigid. ------- Re: 2000 mill Z-axis query. Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Wed May 23, 2007 7:35 pm ((PDT)) Hi Eric: Tired, always, because I never sleep as you would know if you are a follower of this Group... :) In a hurry? No, I am a careful, (usually) deliberate Virgo. The truth is I simply screwed up (no particular pitch or diameter). From Ron's history that he supplied, it sounds like something has shifted. How much, Ron? In .001's from front to back on the sweep of the bearing race. Use the inside mike for inside miking..... :) Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: 2000 mill Z-axis query. Posted by: "Ron OConnor" connor.rx~xxsbcglobal.net Date: Thu May 24, 2007 7:57 am ((PDT)) Eric, I drilled some #27, #32, #36, and #43 holes about .500" deep in 12L14. Ron ------- Re: 2000 mill Z-axis query. Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu May 24, 2007 6:10 am ((PDT)) Ron: Check out the usual suspects; P/N 56210 Shoulder bolt 3/8"-16 by 2" P/N 56230 Flange nut ( 2X ) P/N 56470 Dowel Pin 3/32" Diameter by 1/2" long ("Dutch key"?) P/N 56440 Arm Mount P/N 40340 10-32 by 1" SHCS P/N 56220 Swing Arm Side ( 2X ) All should be clean, free of any lube, and securely tightened if that is their function....Report back to HQ..... :) Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: 2000 mill Z-axis query. Posted by: "Eric" buckeyevsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed May 23, 2007 10:40 pm ((PDT)) I do watch this group, Jerry, and would contribute more often if good guys like you didn't beat me to it. I usually have nothing better to say than what is all ready typed. That puts me in the lurker category I guess. Ron, I can only add that if I have the feed set too fast on my CNC'ed 2000 while drilling, the column does tilt back wrecking a careful tram. On this instance I think I was drilling into stainless steel screws with a 1/8 drill. That's a bit much, even with a split point. Since this isn't in the CNC group, I'd like to know if you had to crank forcefully on the hand wheel or if all felt ok during the operation. Eric ------- Re: 2000 mill Z-axis query. Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Thu May 24, 2007 1:56 am ((PDT)) Hi Eric, I think even a slightly different viewpoint would be good. You should not "lurk." (Onlooker or sidewalk superintendent is my term, "lurking" sounds furtive to me.) We all learn from each other. Hope you didn't take offense... I really do not care for the handwheel/crank thing to advance/lower the Z axis. There is no "feel' like one has when using a rack and pinion arrangement such as on a drill press or other milling machines. Too much MA = Mechanical advantage with the screw. For small holes, I use a sensitive drill feed attachment (Not Sherline's). I was also an inventor of a sensitive drilling device many years ago, when I worked for Yardney Electric Corp. It was called the "Automatic Slip Chuck". If you look in the Miscellaneous Albums in the Photo Section, I have two pages of the brochure the company put out. I am the guy in the upper right photo of the second page of the brochure. Yep! no safety glasses; for picture taking purposes only! We had to make a number of plates with many small holes for a job for the US Navy. Part of tooling for battery plates for a Sea Water Electric Battery for torpedoes. The upper left photo is mislabeled. That was on a Cincinnati Toolmaster Milling machine, and not a drill press! You know how those PIO guys are.... :) Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Head Stock wobble [sherline] Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 1:52 pm ((PDT)) "Chuck McManis" wrote: > So I got a headstock extender from Sherline and noticed that the pin > in the middle wasn't "tight" and when I install it the headstock has > some visible play in it. Seems wrong for a machine tool somehow :-) > Anyway, I'm assuming that this wobble isn't supposed to be there. So > there seems to be a slot, like a bolt head, on the back of the center > pin I assume if I can get that tight then this will go away? --Chuck NOT. The play in the pin is intentional. It's taken up when you tighten the set screw. Don't attempt to further tighten the slotted screw. The purpose of the pin is to allow the cone ended set screw to exert an upward force to seat the headstock or spacer. If the pin were not free to come up slightly, the major force would be acting to push the pin sideways rather than to pull it up, which is what forces the headstock down. This is good kinematic design, don't try to defeat it. Good on you for asking first (you haven't done anything yet, have you?) regards, DC -------- Re: Head Stock wobble Posted by: "Chuck McManis" cmcmanisx~xxmcmanis.com Date: Sun Sep 23, 2007 3:46 pm ((PDT)) Thanks for the response Dave, well I did spend a lot of time figuring out the mechanism and put a bit of dye-chem on the pin to see where the set screw was hitting it. From that I ascertained that wobble came from pin penetrating too far into the stock so when the set screw tightened against it there was very little back force to keep it from wobbling. So I tired various size shims (read folded aluminum foil :-)) and once I got to a 0.0250" shim it worked as expected. I couldn't "add back" 0.0250" of material to the spacer and so at the point I asked Sherline about it and set about figuring out the best way to make a more permanent shim. Sherline responded that it was no doubt a manufacturing defect and they had pull another spacer, measured it to be accurate and set it on to me. That was pretty impressive, so on Monday I should have a replacement that doesn't wobble. All in all I'm getting a much better feel for where the limits are on what the Sherline mill can do and that helps me understand how to set things up ahead of time. Chuck [and in a later message] "David Clark" wrote: > Thanks for closing the loop on this. Sure thing David but to really close it, the replacement arrived from Sherline today and I installed it and everything tightens up exactly as expected/needed. So problem solved. I'm sending the other one back for them to look at. ------- After the Tramming [sherline] Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:43 am ((PDT)) This should be of interest to all. Owners of the 2000 Sherline mill, that is. On page 83 of The Sherline Accessories Shop Guide, Joe Martin cites the reason for not pinning the head is because of the difficulty of removing them. Well, I have used the following item many times to provide alignment in milling machines and special fixtures and tooling. It is a simple device. And that is a removeable taper pin. One just drills a hole, reams with the proper size reamer and that is it! After the tramming , of course. I examined my 2000 mill to see if that is feasible and it certainly is. Details available upon request. That way, if you need to get the head aligned quickly, you just position the taper pin hole visually, tap it in and then while the clamp screws are snugged up, drive it home! To remove for other non vertical alignments, you just use the nut (supplied) to withdraw the pin. Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: After the Tramming Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:45 am ((PDT)) Good afternoon Jerry, Excellent point, on which I'll just expand a bit: In my career of instrument making and metrology (NASA), taper pins were one of the best tools in the box of tricks. It was often necessary to assemble and precisely align an instrument, then fully disassemble it for final cleaning and flight coatings, and reassemble it while preserving alignment to microns. Match drilling, taper reaming and pining was the only viable way to do this. No fixturing or measurement ever worked as well. Another big advantage of taper pins is that they can easily be reseated if needed. Suppose you match drill and pin your column, then find that for some reason it's slightly out. No problem, just realign, and run the taper reamer back in to clean up the hole. The pin will seat just a tiny bit further in, but still perfectly match the hole. Can't do that with a straight pin unless you go to the next larger size. regards, DC ------- Removeable Taper pins / Details [sherline] Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:51 pm ((PDT)) On the Sherline 2000 mill. A pin with a useable length of at least 1" is recommended..... You can choose from a number of pin sizes....see McMasterCarr.com (No commercial connection). The taper per foot is the same. Simply match drill, taper ream and insert the pin, after tramming and securing the clamp screws. The hole should be on the horizontal center line of Item # 2 P/N 35710 (Moveable Clamping Disk) and .250" in from its OD. You can put it on the left or the right. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Removeable Taper Pins Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:37 pm ((PDT)) "David Wood" wrote: > On third thought, never mind. I just checked McMaster-Carr for pins, drills, reamers, etc. Looks like it would cost me well over $600 to put a taper pin in the mill. < I'm not sure we're on the same page here, Dave. I suggest a #1 pin, McMaster-Carr pn 92281A191, $3.99 per pack of 5 #1 taper reamer is pn 299A18 for $22.95 For the start hole all you need is a twist drill slightly larger than the small end of the reamer. A number 24 should be about right. DC ------- Re: Removeable Taper Pins Posted by: "David Wood" dave.woodx~xxcomcast.net wood.1937 Date: Thu Sep 27, 2007 4:32 pm ((PDT)) >But, moving on, how does removing and replacing the motor and >controller affect the alignment of the headstock on either lathe or >mill? I'm not talking about removing the Headstock Casing (pn 40100) >that's secured by the Cone Point Set Screw (40540). Only removing the >motor and controller from the Motor Bracket (40020) by removing the >cap screws. This takes most of the weight off the column. The >headstock has to stay on. That's what we're aligning, after all, to >the mill table. David: I have no idea whether removing the motor from a 2000 series mill will affect the tram of the headstock. On a 5000 series mill, I know it will. If you have a 5000 series mill, remove the motor bracket (#40020). Tram the head in X as closely as you can. Replace the motor. Tram the head in X again. I think you'll find that adding the weight of the motor to the headstock will have put the head out of tram. (I first tried tramming the mill by removing the motor. Then I found that it was always out when I replaced the motor and that I needed a method to adjust the headstock in X with the motor in place; hence the design of the widget fixture.) Dave Wood BTW: I find that the widget is much more useful on the lathe than I initially thought. I check the alignment after every few turning sessions and after every heavy cut--and "heavy" for me means anything over .010--and it nearly always seems to be slightly out. Putting it back in alignment is very quick with the widget because you can read the amount of adjustment directly as you're making it. And, yes, I too thought that there must be something amiss if I was making tapers instead of cylinders so easily, so I replaced the Headstock Pivot Pin (40240) and the Cone Point Set Screw (40540) just in case; new parts made no difference. My younger brother (a machinist with a SoCal aerospace firm) was up just after that and observed my basic procedures; he didn't find anything wrong except to suspect that some SS might stress the machine unduly. Not long after that, a lifelong mechanical engineer friend was visiting, and observed the same thing, with virtually the same comments. Because I have no one to look over my shoulder--and no one whose shoulder I can look over--I seemed to have stumbled inadvertently on doing things basically right. So, because I got tired of trying to make a cylindrical (instead of tapered) piston, I just got in the habit of checking the alignment frequently. ------- NOTE TO FILE: David Wood's description of his widget can be found here in the Sherline Mods General file; look for his message on May 19, 2006. David Wood's photo and drawing for the widget are now in the Yahoo Sherline group's Photos in the folder titled "Alignment widget". A brilliantly simple and very effective idea. Thanks. ------- Re: Removeable Taper Pins Posted by: "David Wood" dave.woodx~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:37 pm ((PDT)) >When you tram the mill with your widget, is the Head Key (pn 40260) >in place? David: Yes. >How much rotation does that allow in the XZ plane? I measured in excess of .015 at the spindle's mouth. >And how do you tram the YZ plane? The YZ plane can be especially tricky (similar to Z rotation on the lathe). On my machine, I found that the column itself (as measured with a 12" machinist's square, which I trust, and with a bright light behind it) didn't vary--that I could see--in YZ. There was significant variation of the column in XZ, though. (As Sherline suggests, barely loosening the four screws near the base of the column and gently tapping, etc. brings it into alignment; but it does go out.) But I did find a good deal of misalignment between the headstock casting and the saddle. I don't remember exactly how much, but I do remember that .0015 shim brass, inserted between them from the top, fixed the problem. In checking this alignment, I find that it doesn't go out very often. >Same question on the lathe, also, how do you check the headstock >alignment? I have a carefully measured (and marked) piece of center-drilled 1" bar. The variation in diameter is less than .0002 over 9". I mount this bar between centers, mount a DTI on the cross-slide so that I get just a little deflection when touching the top of the bar, and slowly transverse in X. I have the newer design of tailstock, and I've decided that it is the standard; so any Z variation I find gets corrected with shim stock between the headstock casting and the riser block. (If you don't have a riser block on your machine, you'd probably do best with a small shim on each of the tops of the steel dovetail of the lathe bed.) For variation in X, I mount the DTI so that it deflects off the back side of the test rod, and slowly transverse in X. Any variation is corrected by loosening the headstock set screw slightly and tightening/loosening the screws on the widget, reading the amount of correction directly as it is made. >But I think I should describe it for those who may not know: When >turning on a lathe, both the tool and the workpiece spring away from >each other slightly. . . . I think this description will be very valuable to many. (I sure wish I'd read it sooner.) As my engineer friend said, "There is always some deflection over length; a fly on the end of a 12" I-beam 10' long causes deflection." Turning between centers will tend to minimize the deflection inherent in the material itself; except deflection will always increase as the diameter of the work decreases and the X-length of the cut increases. >As the tool gets closer to the chuck, the work springs away less, and >the tool, more. This can produce a distinct taper. The remedy is to >take a light "spring cut" to obtain the final diameter. A spring cut will not always produce a cylinder, but it will help reduce any taper that resulted from the spring in the workpiece. Hope this helps, Dave Wood ------- Re: Removeable Taper Pins and the "widget" Posted by: "David Wood" dave.woodx~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:53 pm ((PDT)) James wrote: >Hi David, >I was one of those two people. I've got a "widget" on both the >mill and the lathe and use each on a regular basis. It's quick, >easy, and works well! james James: Thanks for writing to tell me so. To be perfectly frank, I don't understand why more of us haven't checked the alignment on our machines: there must be a lot of tapers being turned out there! Dave Wood ------- Head alignment measurements [sherline] Posted by: "David Clark" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:54 am ((PDT)) Hello Group. Following up the discussion on taper pinning the head: I've been making a few measurements on my 2000 mill. These are pretty rough and preliminary, just wanted to get an idea. The weight of the motor and controller assembly seems to affect the perpendicularity of the spindle axis to the mill table in the XZ plane by about .001 inch over 3 inches. (.025mm over 75mm) I can only attribute this to flexing. It would take a lot more effort to determine just what is flexing and where, and whether it's worth trying to reduce. Any ideas? or better yet data? (I'm aware that some users have counter weighted the head assembly.) I'm firmly on the fence here. Been making good parts for years without even being aware of this, not sure I can justify much effort to correct it. On the other hand: The rotation, in the same plane, permitted by the Head Key, (pn 40260) amounts to about .010 inches over 3 inches. This surprised me, and is strongly inclining me towards Dave Wood's Widget for the headstock alignment, and maybe a taper pin through the Clamping Rings as well for quick repeatability of the 2000's 8th axis. Won't be getting to it soon, however. Have other priorities, including moving to Munich in a few weeks 'til late November. Will probably get on it early next year and will photo document proceedings and results. Thanks to all who participated for an illuminating discussion, and especially to Dave Wood for his excellent widget. DC ------- Re: Head alignment measurements Posted by: "David Wood" dave.woodx~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Sep 28, 2007 12:54 pm ((PDT)) David Clark wrote: >The weight of the motor and controller assembly seems to affect the >perpendicularity of the spindle axis to the mill table in the XZ plane >by about .001 inch over 3 inches. That's about the amount I found on the 5000 mill, and frankly I'm surprised--given all the places things can twist in the 2000 design-- that it wasn't greater. The motor/controller/mount assembly weighs in at well over nine pounds, which creates a significant lever arm. >(I'm aware that some users have counter weighted the head assembly.) Although I originally put up the counterweight because I got tired of cranking up in Z against all that weight (the movement now is only slightly perceptibly more difficult that cranking down in Z), the counterweight certainly solved the XZ rotational problem for me with the 5000 mill. >The rotation, in the same plane, permitted by the Head Key, (pn 40260) >amounts to about .010 inches over 3 inches. This surprised me, . . . This doesn't surprise me, because, as I said, I got .015+ on the 5000. >Thanks to all who participated for an illuminating discussion, . . . Let me add my thanks, to those who participated in the discussion, to David's; it's exactly what I think this group does best and ought to do more of. We all have how-to machining experiences to share; we should share them more. On the other hand, if I want to hear insignificant time-wasting talk around the coffee machine, I'll go hang out at the coffee machine. Dave Wood ------- Re: what bit to use [sherline] [INCLUDES A LOT OF MILLING ADVICE] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:56 am ((PST)) "belljn477" wrote: > I've just got a sherline mill, (used) and I want to cut out a flat > section on a 1/2" round tool steel stock. I'll be cutting about 6" of > the bar which will produce a flat surface and a half round. (hope that > is clear). I've never done this work before so could some one suggest > what drill I should buy that will be best for doing this job. I don't > have a clue and don't know who to ask. > I've also turned a 3/4" round stock down to a smaller diameter. It > didn't come out nice and clean but had a bunch of ring marks in the > bar from the bit. I was using a carbide tip, shaped like a triangle, > and varied my speeds. I also took very shallow cuts and started from > the center of the stock. Did I do it wrong? I appreciate any comments > you might have which will get me doing things right. Belljn477 Name??? The secret to quality machining on any mill is to understand the machine you are working on. The Sherline mill and others of about the same size were not designed for heavy metal removal. However the Sherline mill is capable of removing larger amounts of metal for its size if certain factors are taken in to consideration. If you wish to to machine your part on a Sherline mill with a quality finish, you will need to address four issues. First, the Headstock spindle will need to be trammed or set 90 degrees to the bed of the mill. (Refer to Sherline instructions.) If not, one side of your tool will drag or dig in and cause a poor finish. Second, because of the size of the Sherline mill the Endmill or cutting tool will need to be mounted near the tip of the spindle. This assures maximum stability and accuracy and is achievable by using Sherline's MT Milling milling collets. This will limit your endmill to 1/4" but, because of the stability of mounting close to the spindle, it will allow for maximum accurate metal removal in a sherline size machine. Larger endmills mounted in endmill holders extended out from the spindle multiply all kinds of stability and accuracy problems. Third, for this type work a Endmill would be the most desirable. It is important to purchase the highest quality Endmills possible if a good finish is required. Inexpensive Endmills are many times not even ground square on the cutting tip causing poor finishes. A very light cut at higher speeds on the final cut will also give a better finish. Fourth, it is important to properly mount the work piece so that it is supported at the bottom for the full length of the cut. If I were doing this I would do it as follows. I would start with stock somewhat longer than needed so I would have material on both sides of the 6" cut. I would lay the stock in one of the mill bed keyway slots and clamp to the bed. (See sherline clamping systems for examples.) The clamps can be located about 3" apart for the first cut close to the depth required. The second 3" can then be cut by changing the clamp positions. One clamp on one end should remain clamped until the job is complete, assuring the part stays in the original position. Once the two 3" cuts have been made to almost full depth, the part can then be clamped on both sides of the 6" cut. This will allow for the final light cuts to be made on the full length of the cut. Without full support under the part, it will flex and cause a poor finish. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: what bit to use Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:29 am ((PST)) In regards the turning: It is likely that the triangle bit that you used was meant for threading. Sherline sells item number 11940 for threading and item number 11941 for general turning. The difference between the two is that 11941 has a very slight radius at the tip while 11940 is very sharp pointed. Their product number 3006 - 1/4" Brazed Carbide Tool Set, contains a left cut, right cut, and the above mentioned threading tool. Another option for you - using just what you have - is to cut in at one end with the triangle tool until you are close to depth, then, depending on which end you cut in, use either the left or right cut tool to extend the cut to the other end, working down to depth. You could then, if desired, use the opposite cut tool to go back and clean up the area where you made the original plunge. Alan ------- Re: what bit to use Posted by: "Jerry G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:57 pm ((PST)) For the normal threading toolbits, other than Acme, Whitworth , Square, etc., the included angle is 60 Degrees. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: what bit to use Posted by: "Tom Bank" trbankx~xxpaonline.com Date: Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:18 pm ((PST)) Let's go through this point by point: *I've just got a sherline mill, (used) That means that anything you ask is acceptable and we will try to help. Please don't take offense if the way you ask things causes us to misunderstand what you are really trying to do. *I want to cut out a flat section on a 1/2" round tool steel stock. I'll be cutting about 6" of the bar which will produce a flat surface and a half round. (hope that is clear). Good. You don't say whether the flat D shaped part will be at one end of the bar or in the middle. No matter. The fact that it will be a flat that is cut means that you are milling, not turning, as on a lathe. That affects what is said below. Also, it means that the first thing you need to learn about milling is job setup. In this case, since your workpiece is 6" long or longer, you probably should have several matched V-blocks to hold that piece, although you might get away by resting the piece in one of the mill table's slots and clamping it from the other slot. *I've never done this work before so could some one suggest what drill I should buy that will be best for doing this job. As has been said by others, there is a difference between a drill and an end mill. The one cuts holes straight down (if it is good and the user knows what he is doing). The other can under certain conditions cut down, but is used more often to cut sideways. End mills with two flutes look the most like drills and in most cases can cut straight down as well as sideways (and are known by our Brit contingent as "slot drills") but most any end mill -- unlike most drills -- will be either flat or half round on the end, or will have a special shape to put a curved or chamfered edge on the workpiece. For the job you describe, I would get a 3/8" 4-flute, flat end, double ended end mill, which for Sherline is a rather standard workhorse. It requires the Sherline 3/8" end mill holder. When using it, put it in the holder and tighten the set screw against the flat in the side, then loosen it slightly and pull the end mill down so the set screw is against the upper end of the flat before tightening the set screw again. This will prevent the end mill from dragging itself deeper as you are making your cut. Try making about .010" to .015" deep cuts and work your way down to the depth that you need, making lighter cuts as you get near the final depth. Now, you said that your workpiece is tool steel. If you mean high speed tool steel, we don't usually cut tool steel on Sherline equipment. One reason is that it is rather hard to get it in an annealed form. Most of it is very hard and has to be cut to a desired shape on a grinder of some kind (and any form of grinding near your Sherline equipment is a big NO-NO! You can ruin a Sherline mill or lathe with abrasive dust). If, on the other hand, you mean drill rod or, as the Brits say "silver steel," that's OK and we use that a lot of the time. As a beginner, I would suggest the type of end mill to get for that would be high speed steel, as opposed to carbide, although if you know that what you have is "air hardening" drill rod you might want to go to a good make of carbide. *I don't have a clue and don't know who to ask. As said before, you have come to the right place. *I've also turned a 3/4" round stock down to a smaller diameter. This means you also have a lathe. Cutting tools for lathes are completely different. *It didn't come out nice and clean but had a bunch of ring marks in the bar from the bit. I was using a carbide tip, shaped like a triangle, and varied my speeds. I also took very shallow cuts and started from the center of the stock. Did I do it wrong? Not really wrong, but as a beginner I would use a high speed steel lathe bit rather than a carbide bit, and learn to sharpen it (look in this group's archives of messages, searching for lathe tools or sharpening to find a lot of good pointers and detailed information). The problem with carbide is that it is very easy to chip, especially if you are a beginner. It is also very easy to buy cheap, totally useless carbide bits and inserts if you don't understand carbide quality and which brands to buy. I have a number of no-name carbide bits that I bought when I was starting out and shattered the tips on the first cut. Now, how do you get a nice smooth surface on your work, smoother than what you are likely to get with an end mill or lathe tool bit? The answer to that is easy: CHEAT!!! Get yourself a set of files, flat half round, round, etc., and in various sizes. Learn to use them. You can use files while the work is turning on the lathe at a moderate speed. Just be sure that there is a handle on the file unless you really want to suffer like Jesus Christ. And be extra careful to avoid the jaws of the spinning lathe chuck. They can't be seen, but I assure you, they can be felt! Also, get yourself an assortment of grits in wet-or-dry emery paper, medium to fine or extra fine, but do not use that anywhere near your lathe and mill. When you have milled the flat on your workpiece, go somewhere else, find a piece of something with a nice flat surface that will fit into the 6" flat you have cut and put a piece of emery paper on it, medium grit at first and work down to as fine as you need. Files and emery used to be the first thing a Brit machinist had to learn in his apprenticeship and he had to work many months to get it right. It is a skill that is worth the time and effort. Once again, I think there is information in this group's archives on techniques for filing and using paper grits, as well as for grinding with wheels, as in shaping and sharpening high speed steel lathe tool bits. If you need more, just ask. *I appreciate any comments you might have which will get me doing things right. Learning is half of what each of us is here for, the other half is passing on to others what has in turn been shared with us. Regards, Tom Bank ------- Mill alignment puzzle. I am doing something wrong but what? [sherline] Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:47 pm ((PST)) On my 5400 mill, I made the mistake of checking my table surface swept in only the Y direction. It turned out that moving the table just two inches front to back gave me a variance of .0015". This seemed a lot and so I took some brass shim stock, .006", and put it under the front edge of the block part number 50050, the two hole column base. Upon rechecking, I found exactly the same .0015". I thought that I should have actually overcorrected with this shim and that actually I needed closer to .003". Can anyone tell me what happened and where and how much I do need to shim to take out the .0015"? Alan ------- Re: Mill alignment puzzle. I am doing something wrong but what? Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:52 pm ((PST)) Update. I believe that what is happening here is that the table itself is canted. It must be higher in the rear than in the front. I took the top table off and cleaned it but didn't find anything that could do this so perhaps it's on the underside of the bottom slide. Still, if I had gotten a chip under there, given the way the thing acts, I would expect to find wear marks on the base which I'm not finding. Alan ------- Re: Mill alignment puzzle. I am doing something wrong but what? Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 3:35 am ((PST)) Good morning Alan, Are you: (A) Holding an indicator in the spindle and moving the table? or (B) Sweeping the table with the indicator by rotating the spindle? They are completely different measurements. If (A) you are measuring the flatness of the table top. If (B) you are measuring the perpendicularity of the spindle to the ways. In either case, are you indicating the table top directly, or do you have a mill tooling plate on it? or a parallel or surface plate? DC ------- Re: Mill alignment puzzle. I am doing something wrong but what? Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:02 am ((PST)) David: In this case I was performing operation (A). While, as you say, this will register the flatness of the table top, it also shows the front to back angle that the table top makes with the ways. This latter is, I believe, my case. I indicated directly on the table, on the horizontal plate of Sherline's adjustable angle plate, on a plate of surface ground aluminum, and on the anodized portion of the top of the fixed jaw of the Sherline vise. In each case I got effectively the same result. By the way, indicating on the steel insert on the fixed jaw of the vise was slightly off my number. No point in trying to line it up better though until I resolve this other problem. I realize now that if I had performed operation (B), I would have been measuring what I thought I was correcting. Alan ------- Re: Mill alignment puzzle. I am doing something wrong but what? Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Jan 26, 2008 11:31 am ((PST)) Hi Alan, I agree. Too bad, as I see no way to adjust this. It seems to depend on the machining of the Mill Base (pn 50010), the Saddle (50910), and/or the Mill Table (50180). These are tricky to measure because the problem would likely be in the faces of the dovetails. The only way I can think of to check this is to hold 2 identical gauge pins against opposite faces of a dovetail and indicate a parallel laid across them. But this is a difficult setup and difficult to interpret. The quick fix, of course, is to use a mill tooling plate shimmed to compensate for the apparent wedge of the mill table. Sorry I can't be more helpful. DC ------- Re: Mill alignment puzzle. I am doing something wrong but what? Posted by: "piedrj" otebgnx~xxcore.com Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:04 pm ((PST)) Alan: As I mentioned in my post on "Tolerances .." I had just got a 5400. I put the rotary column attachment on it. When I was going through the setup instructions it said to put an indicator in the spindle and run the table in the Y direction to find out how " accurate" the machine was and to remember the number when going through all the setup steps. Mine varied about a .001 using a Starrett last word indicator from back to front. After I got everything aligned according to the instructions, I had basically zero in the z axis going top to bottom against a test square. I used a large ground bearing housing so I could rotate all around without hitting the table slots. I got the spindle set so it was zero in the x axis, and the .001 in the y axis. According the instructions I could get the .001 out by shimming the column at the base. This would be a bit tricky given the pivot point is not really in the plane of the column but hanging out in mid air, it will be easy to overshoot and get some real frustrating results. I have chosen not to do that until I use the machine a bit. Anyway you can push lightly on the column and swing the indicator more than that. I want to get some experience making some chips just to see what this little machine will do and then I will re run all the setup with a tenths indicator as I did with the lathe. I do not think there is any tip front to back in the table ways; I just think it is droop because of the weight of the head and motor. A good test would be to put it on a surface plate and check the base ways and the table parallelism top and way surface. Might do that after my project. I am going to start my first real start to finish project using just the Sherline Lathe, Mill, and a rather unique Dumore drill press that was set up for watch making or repair. I am going to make the PM Research grinder. It looked like about an equal amount on the lathe and mill, even some single point threading. The project should be a good training vehicle for me on these machines. Bob ------- Re: Mill alignment puzzle. I am doing something wrong but what? Posted by: "Alan Haisley" alanhyx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:16 pm ((PST)) Bob: If you put an indicator in the spindle and, keeping the spindle fixed, "scan" the Y axis by running the dial, measuring from the leading to the trailing edge of the table, you will determine the tilt of the table with relation to the bed. Now, if you hold the table fixed and using your indicator in an L shaped fixture so you can sweep a wide arc and sweep from the leading edge to the trailing edge of the table, you will get another difference. If these deltas are the same then the column is at true right angles to the table in the Y direction. If these deltas are different, you can shim the column at the base to make them the same. The problem with this is that you can't machine a parallel surface with this out of parallel condition and nothing that you do to the column alignment will fix it. Given that you have adjusted the machine as above so that the column is at right angles, you can mill a perpendicular to a bottom surface - or drill or bore a hole perpendicular to the bottom. Before I could visualize this, I needed to make some exaggerated sketches of what these two error deltas meant. I didn't see any noticable error when performing the "scan" in the X direction and so was able to get my X perpendicular by rotating the head to take out the "sweep" delta. An easy way to see what's going on is to hold a card at a 10-20 degree angle to a surface and, by eye, hold a pencil at right angles to the card. Now, without moving the pencil, slide the card back and forth. Then hold the card steady and move the pencil up and down along its axis. Contrariwise, hold the card at the same angle to the surface but hold the pencil at right angles to the surface and perform the same movements. Alan ------- NOTE TO FILE: A SIMPLIFIED EXPLANATION OF MILL ALIGNMENT. If any of this last conversation left you unclear as how to align your mill, this next conversation is fairly simple and clear. ------- Re: tramming headstock Posted by: "Kevin Martin" kpmartinx~xxthinkage.ca Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 8:21 pm ((PST)) Original Message-----On Behalf Of Matthew Patton > do I have it correct that I should collet up some 1/4" or thicker drill > rod and measure deviation with an indicator as I move the headstock up > and down to set vertical > or > should I just mount the indicator in the spindle and then rotate it > 180deg and based on readouts to table surface derive the verticleness > of the headstock? The two methods measure different things. The first method measures the parallelism between the spindle axis and the Z ways. If this is off, you will find that side milling does not work accurately as you raise and lower the headstock, and trying to plunge an exact-size hole with a endmill (not recommended at the best of times) will give an oval mouth to the hole and will tend to grab and dig in because the mill is not being driven in straight. The second method ensures the spindle is perpendicular to the table surface. If this is off, multiple passes of flycutting will not match up properly. Ideally you want both to be correct, and at least on the Sherline, it is easier to get the first method done first since adjusting it will throw the second adjustment out of whack. Kevin Martin ------- Re: tramming headstock Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:18 pm ((PST)) Hi Matthew: There are two things that you want to do. 1 - Put a good quality square on the table, and mount an indicator in the headstock. Move the headstock up and down with the indicator riding on the edge of the square. If you're unsure of the quality of the square, you can perform your measurements, and then rotate the base of the square 180 degrees and repeat. If the square is truly square you'll get the same readings regardless of the orientation. If the square is out of whack, then you won't get the same readings in both directions. The purpose of this step is to make the Z axis perpendicular to the X-Y axis. 2 - Once the above is performed, then you want to do the thing of sweeping the indicator in an arc in order to make the spindle perpendicular to the X-Y axis. You need to perform these in the order indicated, otherwise if you adjust the Z axis, you'll throw the spindle alignment out of whack. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Re: tramming headstock Posted by: "Kevin Martin" kpmartinx~xxthinkage.ca Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 8:18 am ((PST)) Matthew: Just to clear things up, it may sound like Dave Hylands and myself gave you opposite advice on what order to do adjustments (shim or adjust the column base vs adjust the head mount on the saddle): Me: 1-Use an indicator attached to the table running against a rod in a collet in the spindle, move head up and down, and adjust the head/saddle joint for no reading change; 2-Tram the mill (indicator in collet against table, rotate spindle) and adjust the column base for no reading change. Dave: 1-Use an indicator attached to the head running against a square held on the table, move head up and down, and adjust the column base for no reading change; 2-Tram the mill (indicator in collect against table, rotate spindle) and adjust the head/saddle joint for no reading change. There are two geometrical relationships here to adjust, and the two of them together (along with a few others) add up to out-of-tram. The two relationships are: The spindle must be parallel to the Z-axis motion (which is what my step 1 and your first step measures and adjusts); The Z-axis motion must be perpendicular (square) to the mill table surface (which is what Dave's step 1 measures and adjusts). The combination of the two relationships gives: The spindle must be perpedicular to the mill table surface (which is what tramming measures). Because this is the sum of two adjustments both Dave and I used it as a final step, on the adjustment that was not set by our first step. You could also adjust your mill by doing my step 1 and Dave's step 1 in either order. Both step 1's are prone to error from inaccuracies in the extra tool (the drill rod straightness and taper for my step 1 and the square for Dave's) but in each case there are ways to compensate (as Dave mentioned with reversing the square and taking another reading). One advantage of Dave's Step 1 is that it measures out-of-square in the X and Y directions independently, whereas with my Step 1, the two measurements interact to some extent although it is possible to isolate them using an additional substep (essentially when testing the X squareness for each indicator reading you must move Y up and down a bit and take the maximum reading). Kevin Martin ------- Re: tramming headstock Posted by: "Dave Hylands" Date: Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:40 am ((PST)) > I'm just tramming my machine (5410) and the rod I'm using is 0.001" out of true over a distance of 72mm. So one way I find the headstock is off by 0.0057" and the other by 0.0046". I'd like to know how close it's possible to get with this machine? At the moment it's out by about 0.0035" over this distance. By the way I'm mixing metric and imperial because I just happened to choose an Imperial clock and didn't bother to change. I'll try the other one presently, but would like to know how soon I'll be playing football with balloons with this machine. It would be nice to know when to stop. Now? Then I'll see what can be done the other way but do not relish that operation. < Hi Don: When to stop really depends on what you're trying to do. Due to the way the motor is mounted, the head will tend to rotate in the direction of the motor caused by gravity (clockwise). Some guys mount the motor behind the spindle to help with this. Personally, I rarely ever tram my head. I tend to be dealing with objects which are fairly flat, and usually only an inch thick. You're about one and a half thou over an inch, which is perfectly adequate for many operations. Some guys like to have tighter tolerances, and for some things it really does matter. But for lots of stuff it really doesn't matter. What's more important, is understanding what the implications of being slightly out of square are, and deciding if it really makes any difference for the particular project you're working with. Even on a perfectly trammed mill, it will go out of square while cutting, due to the machine not being terribly rigid. Heavier cuts will deflect things more than lighter cuts. Even little things, like the way you use the handwheels can cause deflections. I like to call it learning the character of the machine. Dave Hylands Vancouver, BC, Canada http://www.DaveHylands.com/ ------- Sherline Boring head? [sherline] Posted by: "Chuck Johnston" crjx~xxfrii.com Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 8:16 am ((PST)) Does anyone else have a problem with the Sherline Boring head? I have to put masking tape around my boring head to keep the small adjusting screw from unscrewing and flying across the room when I use it. It will not stay in place while it is being used. Anyone else have this problem? Does anyone else make a decent small Boring head that will work on the Sherline? I have looked at several brands but the price is prohibitive. Like 250+ for a boring head. Any thoughts or comments? Chuck Johnston ------- Re: Sherline Boring head? Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Mar 5, 2008 10:10 am ((PST)) Chuck: With the exception of the loose adjusting screw you have mentioned, the Sherline boring bar is the most accurate and repeatable head available in this size that I have found. The loose adjusting screw as it comes from the factory can be corrected as follows. Drill and Tap a 2-56 hole from the bottom of the bottom half of the head that intersects the adjusting screw thread. Next turn a piece of .070" diameter by about .250" long piece of plastic and install in the threaded hole. The plastic is then held against the adjusting screw thread with a 2-56 setscrew and adjusted for the desired resistance of the adjusting dial. In addition for those who wish to do micro boring with 1/8" or 3/16" shank boring bars, an additional hole can be drilled in front of the existing boring bar holder hole. For correct and accurate location this hole should be center drilled and then drilled with the boring head mounted in the lathe spindle. Jerry Kieffer ------- Insert for Sherline fly cutter [sherline] Posted by: "Mark from Tokyo" ylistsx~xxco-japan.com Date: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:25 pm ((PDT)) Just thought I'd put this up although it may be redundant information for most. For those of you that have the Sherline single insert fly cutter (a very nice tool) here's a couple of references to the inserts if you are not inclined to buy the replacements direct from Sherline. Enco has them in their main catalog. They have a few different ones, but the ones I've ordered and used are as follows: CPMT 32.51-F1 CP200 SECO CARB TURNING INSERT Enco# 317-2180 $14.35 each. This is a C6 TIN insert, very good on hard steel. CPMT 3-1-PF IC3028 ISCAR CBD 11D TURNING INS Enco# 317-3397 $11.04 each. These are uncoated carbide and I use them a lot for aluminum. There are a few others on the site as well that you may want to check. Anyway, beats the Sherline price of $15.52, and nicer inserts as well. Cheers, Mark ------- Pulling the Motor Pulley [sherline] Posted by: "montanaaardvark" boblombardix~xxcfl.rr.com Date: Sun Apr 13, 2008 2:18 pm ((PDT)) Friends, I come to you with my hat in my hand, humiliated, looking for advice. Ok, my hat isn't actually in my hand, but you get the picture. I was CNC cutting a piece of brass last weekend and managed to run the mill into the piece hard, stalling the motor. When that happened, the pulley on the motor side somehow screwed up the shaft and lodged tight against the plastic. The set screw somehow ended up on the round part of the shaft, so it may have dug a nasty bur into the shaft. The motor barely turns, and is not aligned properly along the shaft anyway, so it has to be pulled. But nothing I do seems to work. I can't get a screwdriver under the pulley to try and act as wedge to push it off, and I don't have something like a gear puller that could grab the pulley and hold it while a screw pulls it off. In fact, the pulley may be damaged enough that it needs to be scrapped. I could use some advice. If the advice is to never do that again, I'm trying. Thanks, Bob W4ATM ------- Re: Pulling the Motor Pulley Posted by: "David Wood" dave.woodx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:10 pm ((PDT)) Bob: When I first got my lathe, years ago, the same thing happened to me. The pulley just worked slightly loose and slid forward and wedged on the shaft. Several friends tried to help: gear pullers, spring collapsers, etc. Nothing helped. I gave up and returned it to Sherline. As I remember they called and wanted to know how I'd done it; but they fixed it, free. All I had to pay was the postage one way. Now you can see why so many people think so highly of them. Dave Wood ------- Re: Pulling the Motor Pulley Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sun Apr 13, 2008 5:27 pm ((PDT)) Bob: You can try to put something like key stock next to the pulley on two sides. Then pry off with two screw drivers at the same time engaged in the belt groove. If that don`t work you can get serious. Take a piece of angle iron and hacksaw a slot in one side that just fits in the belt groove. Next support both sides of the angle iron next to the motor. Then drive the shaft out of the pully with a hammer and punch. Of course remove the setscrew. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Pulling the Motor Pulley Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:44 am ((PDT)) Hi Bob, My commiseration.....Do you have a strap wrench? Use it to exert pressure in a twisting motion opposite the force that caused your problem. You may be able to work it loose then. Let us know. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Pulling the Motor Pulley Posted by: "jimp004" jpdslx~xxdls.net Date: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:44 am ((PDT)) Bob, I believe that the pulley will have to be removed in pieces, preferably two. A Dremel tool with cut-off wheels usually will cut enough of a slot to allow a chisel or a wedge to be driven into it and thus split the pulley. "The secret of surviving is knowing what to throw away and knowing what to keep." Jimp004 ------- Re: Pulling the Motor Pulley Posted by: "montanaaardvark" boblombardix~xxcfl.rr.com Date: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:00 pm ((PDT)) Jim: This was actually the best answer. I should have cut it in half. What I actually did was follow Jerry's suggestion and actually got the pulley off, so that was a good suggestion. Along the way there was much banging, prying, and a modest amount of blood letting. Once the pulley was off, I had to spin the motor and hold a file against the shaft to smooth it out. Sanding sounds good, but there are bearings there. I'm not sure they're sealed. And the pulley got so buggered up that I just ordered a replacement from Sherline online. Thanks to everyone for your help. Hope to meet a bunch of you at NAMES this weekend. All the best, Bob ------- NOTE TO FILE: The following message came out of a discussion as to which Sherline mill was best. Jerry Kieffer provided some useful tips on how to get the best out of any Sherline mill. Thanks Jerry. ------- Re: What milling machine [sherline] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Thu May 29, 2008 8:20 am ((PDT)) Jim, I hope you don`t mind if I comment on your comments since my initial thoughts on the Sherline Mill were similar many years ago. However after use I have found the Mill (5400) when properly set up, with quality tooling and within its envelope to be a superb machine second to none in its class. On the other hand, with less than quality tooling and improper setups to be a superbly poor machine. I am not sure I understand your .750" cutting statement, but accurate machining with .750" tooling will require nothing short of a full size Bridgeport. And even then questionable tooling, setups and poor machinable materials will cause all kinds of issues. When I do beginners workshops involving the Sherline mill, I first discuss quality tooling, machinable metals and setups that do not put you at a disadvantage. Without these discussions little good seems to happen. I then demonstrate the limitations of the Mill, generally a 5400. First the upper limits are demonstrated by mounting a 1/4" MA Ford or similar quality endmill within .625" of the nose of the spindle in an endmill collet. It is then plunged .250" deep into a 1.000" square piece of low carbon (Not 12l14) machinable Starret or Sheffield steel. From that point it is moved right and left until it comes out on both sides. The slot is then measured and the finish is observed discussed etc. Generally the slot is about .253" wide with similar finish as from my large machines. Of course a heavy amount of cutting fluid is used. On the other end a .005" endmill is mounted in a WW collet. It is then plunged .003"-.004" deep into a piece of brass under observation through Optics. The Sherline is one of the only small mills that allows this controlled depth through the "Z" axis. It is done by holding the "Z" axis lock in the lightly locked position while making handwheel settings. Unlike other mills, this lock when held in the lightly locked position eliminates "Z" axis leadscrew/nut backlash. Under Optics a .012" by.012" square is cut to show the accuracy and control of the mill on the small side. With the .005" endmill this leaves a .002" square in the middle. Students are then asked to repeat the process themslves -- some who have never touched a mill. About 50% are successful on the first try. The only variation is that a .032" endmill is used on the small side until they have mastered the cutting process because of the cost of micro mills. Sherline was correct in pointing to what has been accomplished when using the mills. An exact scale Model that takes 5-10 years to complete has nothing to to do with how fast or deep of cut you can take with the mill. If that were the case they could be cranked out on a Bridgeport in a few hours. It reflects the accuracy, repeatabliity, and most important the setup flexibility to take a cut on a critical part that may take a week to setup. Actual performace and what has been accomplished is the only way to judge the value of equipment. Accomplishment is not only the Skill of the operator but also the capabilities of the equipment. If you are unable to do something on your Sherline Mill within its designed use and envelope you are welcome to contact me off list. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: What milling machine Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sat May 31, 2008 5:18 pm ((PDT)) Carlton: Whatever you do, don`t give up. The only difference between a Master machinist and a beginner is that the Master is too dumb to give up and daily failures are simply test pieces. I am always happy to do demonstrations by request at any of the shows that I attend every year. I am currently putting together a Beginners Horological Milling Machine work shop, but it has not been reviewed or approved by the School yet. Printed material on Micro machining is a problem in that very little is written. However there is no substitute for making chips that you will need to do anyway, even if printed material were available. Assuming that your Mill is capable of your task, three general areas need to be worked through. Machineable Materials, proper setups and quality tooling in that order. Metal is somewhat like wood. Some can be successfully worked some cannot. It is far better to spend a few extra dollars at a knowledgeable metal supply house than to destroy expensive tooling on poor quality metal. Setups are also very critical. The most rigid part of the mill to mount tooling is at the tip of the spindle. The cutting tip of the tool regardless of what it is will function far more efficiently when it is absolutely as close as work will permit to the spindle nose. However once mounted, if the tooling will not cut efficiently on a consistent basis, not much good will happen. Quality tooling can be purchased through any of the larger s machine tool supply houses. They all have 800 numbers and are always happy to discuss tooling even Micro Tooling. Attending a large tool show is an excelent way to make contacts and becoming familiar with available tooling. Whenever discussing this subject, I am always reminded of a guy who came to a watch and Clock chapter meeting a few of years ago. He had a older 5000 Sherline mill with a extra long 3/8" Chinese or India endmill mounted in a cobbled $3.00 Taig Endmill holder with what looked like about .025" runout. He then cranked it up at the highest speed and slammed the tip of the endmill into a piece of steel. The noise and vibration sounded and felt something like a chainsaw competition. Finally after someone pulled the plug, he claimed the Mill was absolutely worthless. The sad part was that it seemed like some people actually believed him. I often wondered what happened to that guy since I have never seen him again. One of the greatest advantages of the Sherline mill is that accessories are made for almost every situation. Unfortunately it can be a disadvantage in that not every accessory is designed for every situation. If not properly utilized they can be a disadvantage or when properly utilized make almost anything possible. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Check my thinking. [sherline] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Dec 2, 2008 10:44 pm ((PST)) Leonard Davis wrote: > I need to mill locomotive frames that are 14 inches in length and to > mill them without moving the set-up I would need a X bed 14" plus 3" Hi Leonard, I believe there's a corollary to Murphy's Law that says: no matter how big is any machine tool you have, sooner or later, you're going to have a workpiece that's bigger. Repositioning work is not all that difficult - just needs some planning. The main thing is to be able to move the work in a line parallel to one of the mill axes. Then, be able to move it a known distance, or accurately measure that distance. A simple scenario: mount an alignment bar to the mill tooling plate, indicated parallel to the X axis, that the work can slide along. Machine all the features one one end of the work. Put a gauge pin in the spindle, un-clamp the work, and bring the pin to bear on any edge parallel to the Y axis. Then slide the work along the alignment bar using the X axis position to measure the distance moved. The model 2000 mill can extend the reach of the spindle axis by repositioning the swing arm, much as radial arm drill press. With an oversize mill tooling plate you can gain some extra inches. In this case, of course, both X and Y axes positions need to be re-established. But since the work hasn't moved, the direction of the axes are preserved, and indicating a known hole or toolmaker's button is all that's needed. There are endless variations on these techniques, and most can easily be incorporated into a CNC program. Best regards, David Clark from Southern Maryland, ------- How to set up P/N 3551 Sherline Vise in a Hurry [sherline] Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:56 pm ((PST)) Folks: When you set up your vise on any mill, do you then have to use a square off the table and then a DTI to insure that the solid jaw is aligned with the X axis table travel? Well, follow the instructions below, and then; Do try this at home.....:) It takes some preparation, but once done, it is quick and easy.... 1. Tram your headstock/spindle to the table. 2. Set up a good angle plate on the mill table. 3. Indicate it in line with the table travel. 4. Clamp the base of the vise to the angle plate, rear upwards (lightly) 4b. Using a surface gage with a DTI, indicate the solid jaw of the vise, and adjust until it is parallel to the table. (take your time here) (Dead Nuts) [Note: "Dead nuts" means as perfectly as possible.] 5. Clamp it securely, checking that it does not move during the clamping. 6. Now, put a fly cutter in the spindle, and adjust the sweep to just cover the area of the rear of the vise, where the screws that hold the solid jaw are up. 7. Use the paper method to bring the cutting edge of the toolbit in the fly cutter within .003" of the surface you are going to mill. 8. Check this by hand.... no power...yet... 9. Lightly lock the Z lock and turn the spindle on. 10. Move down .003-.005" 11. Lock the Z, take the cut...... Anodizing might give you a hard time here.... You may have to go down a skosh more.... 12. Ok, after you clean the entire surface of the rear of the vise, you are finished except for some light deburring to break the edges. Now, the payoff....When you need to mount the vise for holding parts, you just put the vise on the table and push the rear that you milled square and parallel up against the steel column of the mill. Snug it down and then lock it. That's it! Of course, you will want to check to see if the solid jaw is in line with the X axis travel. Everything wants to be clean for best results. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: strange question [sherline] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Apr 21, 2009 7:36 pm ((PDT)) DA Dossin wrote: > > Looking at the lathe > The X axis is the long bed with the feed screw? > The cross feed is called what axis? > > Looking at the mill > The X axis is the longer bed <---> > The "cross feed" is called what axis? > The up and down feed, of the head, is called what axis? > The twisting head is called what axis? > The axis allow to slide the head in and out is called what? > > Things from my high school day seem to have been superseded during > one of my many naps and now that I am entering into living with a > Sherline 2000 mill, I need some clarification. Download the Assembly and Instruction Manual at: http://www.sherline.com/InstVol5.pdf Look at figure 16 on page 13 On the mill the vertical axis is Z positive is up, X axis is left/right positive to the right, Y axis positive is toward the mill column. This is the same Cartesian coordinate system you learned in school. On milling machines, an axillary axis, such as a rotary table which can be attached at any orientation is usually designated the "A" axis. On a lathe, the bed is the Z axis, positive away from the head stock. Consistent with the same Cartesian coordinate system, the cross slide is the X axis, positive toward the spindle axis. DC David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: strange question Posted by: "Fred Smith" imservx~xximsrv.com Date: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:33 am ((PDT)) DA Dossin wrote: > The twisting head is called what axis? Rotational axes are defined by the linear axis to which they are parallel. A rotary table mounted parallel to the X axis( vertical orientation, ready to use a tail stock) would be A. A rotary axis mounted on it's back, with rotational axis parallel to the Z axis would be C. If you have an axis which rotates the chuck on a lathe(in addition to normal spinning), and have driven tools on the cross slide, that would also be named a C axis. A rotating head axis, parallel to the Y axis( ie left to right) would be B. Front to back spindle rotation, parallel to the X axis would be A. Few CNC machines exceed 4 simultaneous axes so the manufacturers usually name them for you. Manual joints and pivots are just that and do not usually get an official name. In addition to the X-Y-Z linear axes and the A-B-C rotational axes, there can also be a named set of linear axes which are parallel to the original X-Y-Z, these are called U-V-W. Some examples of this would be the Quill and knee on a bridgeport (turret mill), the dovetail slide and Y axis on a turret mill (2000 style like the bridgeport). Some lathe controller manufacturers use these for incremental motions (U-V), but that use is non-standard. Fred Smith - IMService http://www.imsrv.com ------- Re: strange question Posted by: "Fred Smith" imservx~xximsrv.com Date: Thu Apr 23, 2009 11:53 am ((PDT)) "Greg.Procter" wrote: > Hi Jerry, > I was told the long axis of the lathe is "Y". (follows on from X) > ("X" equals Cross as in cross-slide) > As the vertical axis of the mill is "Z" this format makes sense to me. > Fred appears to call them "X" and"Y" also. > Of course, when I take the headstock from my lathe and mount it > on my mill it changes from "Y" to "Z". Not sure which Fred, but the primary linear axis, parallel to the center of rotation of the spindle is Z. This applies to both lathe and mill. One other point about axis designations on CNC machines. The plus and minus direction always applies to tool motion, not part or slide motion. Fred Smith - IMService http://www.imsrv.com ------- Re: New file uploaded to sherline [sherline] Posted by: "Henry Liu" henryjliux~xxgmail.com Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:34 am ((PDT)) Is there a way to "lock" the mill spindle easily to prevent it from turning? I want to mount a probe but can't have it moving all around the place. Do most mills have a similar way to "lock" the spindle? Thanks for the tips. ------- Re: New file uploaded to sherline Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:57 am ((PDT)) Make a wooden wedge and put it between the pulley and the housing. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Lock the spindle (was Re: [sherline] New file uploaded to sherline) Posted by: "Charles Fox" cafox513x~xxverizon.net Date: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:05 am ((PDT)) Henry, I've had luck putting an open-end wrench on the nut on top (of the tools that have such a thing). Gentle hand pressure keeps the spindle from turning then. ------- Re: Mill Tool Plate or Tilting Angle Table [sherline] Posted by: "imserv1" imservx~xximsrv.com Date: Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:50 am ((PST)) "rsimonus" wrote: > I would like to get Mill Tool plate but not sure what kind should I get and how long. A2zcnc sell Mill tool plate 1/2"x4"x13" for $68.50 or 1/2"x4"x19" for 75.00 which is longer than Sherline Mill tool. I was not sure if I should get longer one or 13" long is good enough. < The A2Z 19" plate can be mounted with the rotary table positioned to the left of the end of your mill table. It lets you get up to 12" of distance between the rotary and a tailstock. It also has a t-slot to mount the tailstock. I like that setup because you can quickly remove the entire rotary setup ( table pn 3700, right angle plate pn 3701 and tailstock pn 3702) and keep it all assembled. It also lifts the CNC-rotary table high enough to clear the Y axis motor. Fred Smith - IMService http://www.imsrv.com ------- Loose mill head [sherline] Posted by: "arcmaster3" tomx~xxwade.name Date: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:50 am ((PST)) Went to install the mill head spacer block yesterday, and there was way too much slop in the mill head. After much head scratching, finally discovered the pivot pin on the column saddle wouldn't fit all the way into the hole in the spacer block. The pin is just a bit too long. The end of the pin hits the screw which secures the similar pin into the spacer block. After measuring carefully, I decided that the head of the pivot pin needed to be shortened by about 0.030" minimum. So took it to the grinder and cut off about 0.040". Reassembly proved my theory right, and today there is no wobble in the head stock assembly. Tom Wade Hope, Indiana ------- NOTE TO FILE: Despite the use of CNC, this next conversation is also useful to users of the Sherline (or any other) manual milling machine. ------- Surfacing [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 3:37 am ((PST)) Happy New Year folks!!! I had some time this afternoon to do some test cut. Tried surfacing an aluminum block to see if I can get it squared. I took out the largest endmill that came with my mill and use the Mach3 wizard. Each pass is set to 0.5mm for a total of 4 passes and step over of 50%. The surfacing wasn't even (or should I say flat) as there are some very thin raised lines along the toolpath. This is the first time I'm using the wizard, so I try to do surfacing manually to see if I've the same problem. The cut was very rough (not smooth to touch). The last time I did this yielded good results. Tried slowing down the spindle (was at almost max speed), reduced feed, and combination of both (spindle speed and feed rate). Same result. Any thing else I should try? Should I change the step over to say, 25%? regards, Wong ------- Re: Surfacing Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 5:04 am ((PST)) Hi Wong: Use a fly cutter: http://tinyurl.com/y9qfy5y or, even better: http://tinyurl.com/ydogvod The ridges are caused by the points of the milling cutter pushing material up from the surface. This is particularly a problem with soft, highly extrudable, aluminum. I am not an advocate of "mystery metals" obtained by dumpster diving. Get yourself some known, good, 7075 or MIC 6. Even better, 6020. see http://tinyurl.com/yfbdh8p and http://tinyurl.com/yk8r67l for much more info. Good machining requires a combination of the right tools, the right techniques, and the right materials. Don't try to cut corners on any of them. David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: Surfacing Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 5:47 am ((PST)) Hi DC: The aluminum I was practising on is T6061, bought previously from a shop selling only aluminum products. I was hoping to use the endmill as it doesn't produce the mess that the flycutter generates. Further, it worked well previously. Maybe I can take this opportunity to ask about using the flycutter here (P/N 3052). I lower the flycutter down to just touch the stock and set z=0. Without lowering z, I run the cutter across the stock and it started cutting. What I'm trying to do is when I say z=-1, 1mm worth of material will be removed from the stock. If the cutter starts cutting at z=0, I'll find out how much is removed at z=0 to compensate for it. Using the endmill, at z=0, nothing gets cut. So I'm confident that I'm cutting exactly the amount programmed. Am I making it more complicated than it actually is? Regards, Wong ------- Re: Surfacing Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 6:28 am ((PST)) That's a pretty good way to flycut to a desired depth. There are a few caveats, though. The material removed will be proportionately less with deep cuts than with skim cuts, as there is appreciable tool spring in a flycutter of that type. Tool spring, as well as spring in the material, holding, and the machine itself is (like backlash) a fact of life in machining that must be understood and considered. If possible, it's always best to measure after the second to last cut, and then make the final cut with the same parameters. For flycutting parameters read: http://www.sherline.com/3052inst.pdf Note what it says about the thickness of the chips. For light machine tools like Sherlines, I suggest that chip load is the best entering argument for calculating speeds and feeds with any tool. You can measure the thickness of a chip with your calipers or micrometer. As a rule, if you always keep your chips around .001 or .002 inches thick (0.02 - 0.04 mm) you won't go too far wrong. DC ------- Re: Surfacing Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 6:48 am ((PST)) Thanks DC, I'll try to understand what that article is trying to say. One part of it mentioned that the flycutter would usually have a second cut on its back side -- it didn't do that the last time I tried flycutting. I'll cut some plywood to put around the machine so as to contain the flying chips. Regards, Wong ------- Re: Surfacing Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 7:57 am ((PST)) That's an indication that your mill is "out of tram", meaning the spindle axis is not perpendicular to the table. Read the section on squaring the mill in the Assembly and Instruction Guide beginning on page 13. http://www.sherline.com/InstVol5.pdf Here's how I do it: http://tinyurl.com/yc4s6sb If you have a 5000 series mill, first square the X axis. Loosen the 4 screws that hold the column onto the column base. Adjust to make the indicator read equally on each side of the table. Tighten the screws and check the Y axis. If it's out significantly, you must shim under the front or rear edge of the column base to compensate. DC ------- Re: Surfacing Posted by: "Scott Meyer" baldysmx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 8:04 am ((PST)) You are making a basic assumption that is probably not true with a Sherline mill - that the axis of the spindle is precisely perpendicular to the plane of the table. This is called tram. A fly cutter on a mill that is in tram will have a cut on it's back side. Not much, perhaps not even easily measurable, but visually noticeable. Take note of the direction you are cutting with the fly cutter. If you cut left to right and there is no back cut, the spindle is tilted a bit to the right. Assuming you are cutting left to right and there is no back cut, you'll discover that there is a significant back cut when you cut from right to left. ------- Re: Surfacing Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 8:28 am ((PST)) Scott / DC, I'll test it out. I'm trying to cut the fixed portion of Dave Hyland's fly cutting clamp. Will test it once the kids are in bed. Thank you both. Wong ------- Re: Surfacing Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Fri Jan 1, 2010 9:50 am ((PST)) One more thing, Wong; After a test cut with the fly cutter.... Check for a cove/dip across the width of the part.... DI or DTI, or even A DDI.... This will tell you if you are EFFECTIVELY in tram. Later, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Surfacing Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Sat Jan 2, 2010 12:55 am ((PST)) I found one of the causes of the mis-aligned mill. The alignment key for the A2Z spacer block didn't quite fit the Sherline's slots. Don't know how I missed out the big gap on the top of the spacer block. That caused the spindle to be tilted forward. The only way I can fit the 2 spacer blocks is to move the key up. The key in question is now stick out by half its length (pics posted in photo section under Wongster). Tried fly cutting this afternoon to square up a small block of 6061. When I went from right to left, the cut at the back sort of polished up the cut in front - cool!!! The only 2 problems I met: 1) Placement of the round rod on the moveable jaw of the vise. I cut the rod too short so have to use a small plier to insert it into the vise; 2) Facing the 2 ends after squaring the 4 sides. The longer ends were faced using the endmills that came with the machine. I was trying to cut with the entire length of the endmill. Changing to my 4mm endmill works. I went to and fro at each pass and the return direction (I think it's called climb milling) kind of cleaned up the surface. One more thing I need to work on is to learn how to cut to the required size before starting the project. To me, this is a good progress. Now my mill is trammed (shimmed the front of the column by 0.02"), I can get on with more practice. Regards, Wong ------- Tooling plate alignment ? [sherline] Posted by: "***" mlucekx~xxmindspring.com Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 1:56 pm ((PST)) I'm finally trying out the tooling plate on my Sherline mill so I can mount the rotary table. Basic question - do I need to align the tooling plate to the mill x-axis accurately, or are the 6 t-nuts used to secure the plate to the x-axis enough? Obviously the rotary table then mounts onto the tooling plate. So how does all that alignment work out? Of course you have to indicate the rotary table/work to the spindle. Suggestions, tips? Thanks! Mike ------- Re: Tooling plate alignment ? Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Jan 3, 2010 2:35 pm ((PST)) Hi Mike, the answer to your question is: How close do you need to work? Will you use the tooling plate for alignment? Or just to clamp parts/work to? Once mounted, Indicate the center hole of the Rotary Table to the spindle rotation ( X and Y adjustments ), and then: Rotate the RT to check concentricity..... Note (write) the X and Y hand wheel numbers with backlash taken up. You are then good to go. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Step hold down [sherline] Posted by: "rsimonus" reidsimx~xxgmail.com Date: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:33 pm ((PST)) I am looking for step block hold-down. Sherline sell it for $40.00. Is there third party who sell them? LMS sell it for 14.94. T-slots are 8mm. I believe there are too big for Sherline. Also HF sell it for $4.95. Does anyone use them? Reid ------- Re: Step hold down Posted by: "Paul W. Chamberlain Sr." pwcx~xxhughes.net Date: Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:48 pm ((PST)) Here's another option: http://www.micromark.com/STEP-CLAMP-SET-FOR-X-Y-TABLE,9194.html Micro-Mark sells many of these small tool items under their trade name "Microlux", but are actually relabled Proxxon items. These should be high quality as many Proxxon products are... and sized correctly for Sherline size equipment. The hold down studs and nuts are Metric, and the nuts need filing to fit Sherline's T-slots. I just use Sherline T-nuts, along with studs cut from 10-32 threaded rod, nuts and washers I got from Small Parts. http://www.sherline.com/3056pg.htm The largest bare Metric thread that would fit the Sherline T-slot would be M6... which is what Proxxon uses for their smallest X-Y tables. No affiliation with any vendors... just a tool junky. Paul, Central OR ------- Re: Cutting and Boring tools [sherline] Posted by: "Alan" alanhyx~xxroadrunner.com Date: Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:24 pm ((PST)) "a3sigma" wrote: > Good Morning Jerry, > Where did you get the Sherline dovetail tool? I'm gonna need one. > For some reason, I thought they were hard to find, being a > non-standard angle. Does Sherline sell them? I'll be phoning them > with an order as soon as they open today. Best, DC Dave: Try a 45° dovetail tool in two passes. First cut straight then tilt the head 10.5° and recut. Of course it will have to be a Y move. Also a large PITA, especially to get the angle right and the cutter repositioned, but it should do the trick. Alan [Alan in a later message] I just realized that rather than rotate the head and be limited by the Y positioning, wedges of 10.5° can be made, or the Sherline angle plate can be used, to hold the part for the second cut. Much better than rotating the mill head. ------- Re: Cutting and Boring tools Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:58 am ((PST)) Thanks Alan, already thought of that. See my post #45679 http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/message/45679 I sent Sherline an email on Friday asking about the cutter. No response yet. Also spoke to someone in the order department. She didn't know, but will ask, and ping her boss to answer the email. I have a spare 12 inch mill column since I put an extended column on my mill. It bugs me to see it just lying in a drawer. Gotta make something to use it on. DC ------- Re: Cutting and Boring tools Posted by: "Marcus" marcusx~xximplant-mechanix.com Date: Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:29 am ((PST)) Hi Alan: Actually, your first instinct was the better one. Tilting the head allows you to complete the part without moving the workpiece, thus making it far easier to achieve the degree of parallelism needed to make the dovetail slide work smoothly and support the loads properly. On that subject, if you have a Sherline 2000 that can tilt the head in the sagittal (fore and aft) plane, you don't need a dovetail cutter at all, but can side mill the angled faces with an ordinary small diameter endmill and ignore the clearance pocket that ends up being cut in the corners. You want the sliding faces to all be parallel to one another...never moving the workpiece while cutting the dovetail gives you the best possible chance to achieve that goal without pain. In addition, if you plan your job correctly, and you have enough table travel, you can set up both the male and the female parts at the same time and tilt the head only twice; once for the front face of each part, and once for the back. If you put the parts in the proper orientation before you start milling, then the exact angle becomes unimportant...the doves will mate properly even if their angles are way off. There is an art to milling dovetail slides; much of the success resides in the design, much in the job setup and a little bit in the care that's taken during machining. David and I will likely go over the methods for easy success in detail during the development of the Z axis slide project...it's certainly a worthwhile topic for anyone who wants to make machine tool accessories, and it's crucial to have a very well fitted dovetail slide for this accessory. Cheers Marcus http://implant-mechanix.com/splash.html ------- Re: Slot Milling with Sherline Mill [sherline] Posted by: "Alan" alanhyx~xxlive.com Date: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:02 pm ((PDT)) "e.pickles" wrote: > I need to cut a 1/4" slot, 2" length, all the way through a 5/8" square mild steel bar. Is the Sherline 2000 mill robust and rigid enough, using a 1/4" 2-flute HSS end mill? Having tried this, I find that even with light cuts (.002") side forces frequently but not consistently cause the column to kick sideways and rotate slightly, necessitating readjustment to keep the cutter on the right path for the next pass. This seems to happen after adjusting the depth of cut on the z-axis and starting the next pass. At the same time the depth seems to increase itself by 1-2 thou even though the saddle locking lever is engaged. Am I asking too much of the Sherline mill? Would I have more success with an aluminum bar, instead of mild steel? Would a center cutting 4-flute end mill work better? What depth of cut should I be able to achieve on each pass? Comments and suggestions would be gratefully received by this relative newcomer to miniature machining. < I have found that the two-flute centercutting endmills "kick around" when lowered straight down. Even though the common endmills may say center- cutting, they really can get hung up on chip clearing problems and the fact that there is no built-in centering. As the bit is pushed slightly to the side, it will grab and take advantage of any play in the X and Y travel. Also when advancing the Z, the cutter will often be fed too suddenly because of backlash in that direction. How accurate do you need to be with this? If it is just a generic slot, I'd drill 1/4" at each end and then mill out the middle, maybe as much as 0.010" at a time, but possibly more or less depending on how the cut sounds and feels each pass. Remember though that the cutter WILL be forced to the side more by a deep cut than a shallow one. This would still be true even on a $40,000 milling machine -- just that on it the deflection would be less. For a really accurate slot I'd either drill and ream or bore the limit holes and then mill the middle out with a smaller than 1/4" endmill. I'd cut the path up the middle of the slot until I was all the way through and then I'd side-mill each edge until I reached the desired slot edge. Alan ------- Re: Slot Milling with Sherline Mill Posted by: "shipmodelmaker1931" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:16 pm ((PDT)) I am going to "echo' Alan's comments with one proviso. I would not use a 2 flute end mill for steel -- either a three or four flute is more suitable. Also if possible, try to rig up a slotting saw after drilling,reaming/and or boring the end locations. Slotting saws tend to cut truer. Just keep the "washout" of the slotting saw's radius within the end locations of the slot. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Slot Milling with Sherline Mill Posted by: "Paul W. Chamberlain Sr." pwcx~xxhughes.net Date: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:34 pm ((PDT)) I don't have a Sherline mill (a couple of lathes though), but have read other posts about the 2000 being less rigid due to the multiple clamping points that give it its versatility. I frequently do slotting in 1018 CRS with my Taig CNC Mill (with Sherline 10,000 RPM motor/controller/pulleys) and Grizzly MiniMill at 0.030" per pass with 1/8" and 0.060" per pass with 1/4" 3 flute HSS endmills (Hertel brand). I would think yours should handle the 0.005" with the right endmill/speed/feed. I use 30% to 50% of traditional recommended speed/feed on my Taig mill. I have found that 3 flute endmills cut much cleaner when slotting, and with less lateral force than 2 or 4 flute endmills. With even number flute endmills, I see a lot of re-cutting of chips... and fine "no-see-um" splinters that need tweezing long after handling the work. With a 3 flute, only one flute is against the side of the slot at any moment, so no "wedging" occurs as with even number flutes... and minimal splinter problem. I would stay away from hot rolled mild steel (HRS - with a crusty finish), and key stock (I have found hard spots in some key stock). Stick with cold rolled mild steel (CRS). You will need a "long flute" 3/4" to 1" flute length endmill to slot through 5/8". I would suggest drilling first... a row of holes just breaking through the bore of the previous hole, using an undersize drill (15/64"). Use your mill, or clamp a fence on a drill press table so they are in line. Drilling should remove 75-80% of the metal faster than shallow milling. If you want to go further, get on of those mini hacksaws that use 6"x1/4" blades... and carve out more metal. Harbor Freight, and other suppliers carry an orange framed model made in Taiwan that's worth having. I get my blades at Sears (three grades - made in Germany). With close to 90% of the metal already removed, your mill should be able to handle the remaining slot cutting. Joe Martin doesn't promote steel cutting very much in his writings about his machines... they were never designed to compete with cast iron machines that take two men and a boy to lift. They are hard to beat within the capacity they were designed for. I'm always impressed with the work my two lathes (4000 manual & 4400 CNC), and a few drawers of accessories, can do. Paul, Central OR ------- Stuck Drawbar Tools [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "KWC" kencondalx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 3:38 pm ((PDT)) I'm looking for a better solution than a hammer for removing a tool held in by the drawbar. Today it was the flycutter and a few raps (well OK, more than a few) with the hammer undid the tramming I had spent yesterday getting perfect. A hammer might work on a 60 ton cast iron Bridgeport, but it's not the tool of choice on a Sherline. I've got the IMService Rapid Tool Changer, so I don't need the Sherline collets anymore, but the flycutter and other goodies still need a drawbar. I found this product and was wondering if anyone had tried it: http://www.proto-jem.com/mill_tools.htm I'm also wondering if there are any tips for not getting a tool stuck in the first place. Lubricant before inserting the taper? Magic dust? Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Ken ------- Re: Stuck Drawbar Tools Posted by: "Ryan Wood" woodr_2x~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 4:17 pm ((PDT)) Hey Ken: I agree with you on that, as far as tightening stuff down - a hammer should probably be avoided. When I use collets - I usually have to crank down on those guys with a wrench to secure the bit properly, however with the fly cutter - I usually only tighten it by hand. - and when I mean hand, I actually mean with my hands (no tools). Of course I'm only facing soft material - either wood or plastic generally, however I don't really think you have to crank down on it as much as you might think. If you're interested - play around with it, but what's nice about hand tightening it is that you can usually take it off with no tools as well. What I do is take the fly cutter and tighten the screw as best as I can by hand and push the neck of the cutter up securely into the spindle shaft. When you can't tighten it any more put your hand on the fly cutter and take the pully wheel and turn them in opposite directions. This will tighten the fly cutter a little more so it's securely in the neck of the spindle. I've never had any problems with it coming loose. This will cause some sliding action between on the cutter and the spindle when you are tightening it, so if you do this a lot and want to keep the nice oxidized black surface on the neck of your bit, then just an extra quarter turn on the top should suffice. Remember all it needs to do is provide enough holding torque so the bit doesn't slip when rotating. If it does, it will simply tighten your flycutter more - so it's a "safe" failure mode if you happen to not tighten it enough. If you require super tight tolerances as well, this method may not be best for you. In that case, what I would personally do is just buy a gear puller and use the pullies to suppy an anchor for the puller to push out the shaft when it's loosened. I've also seen people extend the end of the thru-shaft out to a larger diameter thru-hole threaded shaft - where they can screw on a bolt to pop out the bit. I'd try oil first and see if that works. ryan ------- Re: Stuck Drawbar Tools Posted by: "Ken Condal" kencondalx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 6:54 pm ((PDT)) Hi Ryan, I had never used the fly cutter before and wanted to make sure it was well secured (maybe too well). I'll take your advice and experiment with less tightening and / or some oil. The gear puller is an interesting idea, but I'd rather not apply force to the pulley. Thanks, Ken ------- Re: Stuck Drawbar Tools Posted by: "Andy Wander" awanderx~xxverrex.com Date: Wed Apr 7, 2010 4:03 am ((PDT)) Oil should not be used on a taper. Keep it clean and dry. Andy Wander ------- Re: Stuck Drawbar Tools Posted by: "Hamilton Elliott" helliottx~xxmicroflex.ie Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 5:07 pm ((PDT)) I use a 3/4 -16 half nut, and screw it onto the spindle before the fly cutter etc. The chuck on its arbour is a slight problem and I use an aluminium "washer" with a piece taken out to allow you to put it between the chuck and the half nut. There are a few different solutions offered in the tips section of the Sherline website. Regards, Hamilton ------- Re: Stuck Drawbar Tools Posted by: "Ken Condal" kencondalx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 6:59 pm ((PDT)) Hamilton, I saw the half nut idea in the Sherline tips, but it was after the fly cutter was already stuck. It looks like a simple solution, but it wouldn't work with collets or other tools that don't have an upper surface to press against. Still, I like the idea and I'll give it a try. Thanks, Ken ------- Re: Stuck Drawbar Tools Posted by: "Thayer Syme" thayerx~xxgryffinaero.com Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 5:29 pm ((PDT)) Ken, I didn't like the idea of whacking on something carefully aligned with a hammer and so made my own version of the tool you linked to above. My mill and lathe both have the spindle handwheels on them so needed something a little different. I milled a c-shaped piece of aluminum that reaches around the outside of the handwheel and then put a 1/4x20 hex head screw through the middle. To use it, I back off the drawbar a half turn or so, then slide the puller over the handwheel. Turning the screw with a wrench will apply smooth gentle pressure against the drawbar and force it out of the spindle. I have since replaced the screw with a screw with a handle on it, Item "H" on this page. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&cat=1,43455,61994&p=61658 It works fantastically well and I made it. Photos are cued and waiting for admin approval Thayer ------- Re: Stuck Drawbar Tools Posted by: "Ken Condal" kencondalx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 7:03 pm ((PDT)) Thayer, I'd never seen that handwheel before but just found it on the Sherline site. If I had the handle, your design would be great. BTW, I love the spherical puzzle you made. Was that plan published somewhere or is it your design? Thanks, Ken ------- Re: Stuck Drawbar Tools Posted by: "Thayer Syme" thayerx~xxgryffinaero.com Date: Tue Apr 6, 2010 7:14 pm ((PDT)) Neither, really. My 7-yo son got an injection molded plastic one at a friend's house, and I found it intriguing. I wanted to tighten up the tolerances quite a bit, so I started up my CAD program. The assembled diameter is 2 inches. The main challenge with this puzzle is simply holding the pieces in place until the key is inserted. Yeah, my puller is only good with the handwheels in play, but the only time I take one off is when I want to do some threading on the lathe. Thayer ------- Re: Mill riser Y direction [sherline] Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed May 5, 2010 4:23 pm ((PDT)) I've sometimes turned a plastic part that falls outside the work envelope of my lathe by rotating the headstock 90 degrees, and very carefully cutting into the exposed edge of the part... I've done parts that are close to 8" diameter that way. I got the idea from a website I found where someone used a sherline mill to turn oversized parts. He put the chuck on the mill spindle (also rotated 90 degrees) and held the part in that, then he put the toolpost in a vise and proceeded to make a large flywheel. Check out the site to get lots of evil ideas: http://steammachine.com/millturn/ ------- Re: Mill riser Y direction Posted by: "DA Dossin" danatlx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed May 5, 2010 5:44 pm ((PDT)) Doesnt say anything about the cutting tool. I can't see it clearly. It doesn't look like the standard configuration. DanD. ------- Re: Mill riser Y direction Posted by: "chieftoolmaker" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Wed May 5, 2010 6:03 pm ((PDT)) Looks like an insert tool holder to me...... I am not a fan of outsize pieces.... Plus, those glasses sure as hell are not safety goggles..... Risky business..... Jerry G P.S. Pierre, you pegged it right "evil ideas"...... ------- How do you know when your gibs are set correctly? [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "sky_cisco" skygx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:25 am ((PDT)) Pretty simple question that I'm sure will generate a number of answers. I have an A2Z CNC upgraded Sherline 5400. I now have handcranks on the steppers, so I can move it back and forth manually. Still, with steppers connected, there's a different feel to the motion. I know that setting the gibs is pretty important, but I'm not sure if there's any set method that I can use. Ideas? Sky ------- Re: How do you know when your gibs are set correctly? Posted by: "Philx~xxYahoo" yahoox~xxphilmattison.com Date: Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:05 pm ((PDT)) A simple rule of thumb is to set them as tight as you can without binding. On a CNC machine the trade-off is against your max rapid speed. Tighter gibs = slower rapids. Correctly is whatever you decide, assuming everything else is set up correctly. ------- Work Holding [sherline] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Dec 1, 2010 9:03 am ((PST)) To All: One of the more challenging things in machining is work holding. The more options you have the greater chance of success. I thought I would share one of my occasional use items on the Mill, since I was using it and could take a quick photo. One of the more difficult items to work on, is always that item that needs to be machined/drilled on the end and is far too long to stand up in the mill. I resolved many of these issues by first rotating the Mill headstock into the horizontal position. I then mount the Vise on top of a 4.500" x 3.500" x 3.000" high aluminum block that elevates the vise up to spindle height. I will post two photos in the photo section under my name that show the setup. This allows me to rigidly hold many long parts for machining/drilling that otherwise would be a real pain in the butt. With this setup I have machined on the end of parts as long as four or five feet with support of course. While parts can be held in the same manner clamped to an angle plate, this method has proven to be far more efficient saving much time for general machining. This arrangement is also much more efficient and controllable for micro machining and especially micro drilling in some cases. It also improves visibility where required over the vertical headstock position on some jobs. Just another option. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Work Holding Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Wed Dec 1, 2010 10:35 am ((PST)) On a similar note, see: http://tinyurl.com/3297tp8 David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: Work Holding Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Dec 1, 2010 5:35 pm ((PST)) Neat! My grandfather used to put a drill chuck onto the arbor of his old DeWalt radial arm saw to drill parts too big for the press. This is like the micro version of that setup. ------- ARRRRRgghhhh! Mill Tramming/Alignement [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Bruce" bforganx~xxbdfdesignworks.com Date: Sat Feb 5, 2011 3:31 am ((PST)) OK, I'm confused about squaring/tramming up my new A2Z mill which has made me think a little deeper if I've really been squaring up my Sherline 2K mill correctly. I'm following Sherlines guide on tramming up their S2K mill. I get though the steps up to the point of completing the sweeping of the table at the 9/3 and 12/6 o'clock postions to square up the column to the table both from the let and right and fore and aft directions. My fly cutter will give a nice finish at this point...... but, My Sherline 2K Mill z-axis column bed, of cousre, is adjustable 8-ways and the column bed can be rotated in the left and right and fore/aft directions to get the indicator to zero out. The A2Z Mill z-axis column bed does not rotate in any direction. So, I loosen the 4 bolts that hold the column to the base and shim in pairs on either the left or right side of the column to get first, the x-axis sweep to zero out. I then sweep the y-axis and shim under the front or rear of the column until the indicator zeros out here too. Now, the next steps in the Sherline guide say to FINE TUNE THE HEADSTOCK ALIGNMENT by placing a machinist square on the table lined up along the x-axis, an indicator in the spindle and run the tip of the indicator up with the z-axis along the vertical edge of the machinist sqaure - - and rotate the "column" to get the indicator to zero out. Now, both both of my mills are off 5 to 10 thousandths in about 5 inches when I run the indicator up the edge of the machinist square - the tip of indicator moves away from the machinist square. I've never quite been able to figure this part out for as long as I've been in this hobby. Now, like the guide says, if I rotate the column, I'm thinking: 1. Yea, if I rotate the z-axis bed column [again...] left or right, that will zero out the indicator - but won't that take out the previous column alignment with the x-axis when I swept the table? 2. Did sherline mean rotate the "column" that the rams sit on? No, If I rotate the ram column left or right I don't think that would correct the error of the head moving away from the machinist square while it rides up the z-axis. 3. Do I rotate the head to take out this error. No. I think the same thing happens as above. It won't correct the error. Plus, I do not want to remove the key, and I'm not going to get 5 thousandth movement with the key in any direction. Plus, this is supposed to be the next step/last fine tune adjustment that Sherline describes before the mill is squared up. 4. Well maybe sweeping the table in the previous alignment steps only aligns the column with the head in that position above the table, to the table..., and when I rotate the column again to correct the error of the indicator riding up the edge of the machinst square, that this is the "fine tuning" the head stock that Sherline is refering to in the guide? And after completing this last alignment step, if I go back and sweep the table, all 4 points on the table will still be zerod out. Have a hard time getting my head around this, not sure if it even makes sense and it's too complicated for something that should have been refined over the last 100 years. So I tried that anyway to see what happens, and I also rotated the machinist square 90 deg. and indicated the vertical edge of the square to "fine tune" align the column to the y-axis for good measure. Sure enough, when I went back and swept the table, my alignment is all out of whack..... but my headstock will now drill a hole perfectly 90 deg to the table as it travels up and down the z-axis, and my surface cuts, pocketing, flycutting, finish will be terrible. What have I been missing for the last 2 years? Bruce ------- Re: ARRRRRgghhhh! Mill Tramming/Alignement Posted by: "Ken Condal" kencondalx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Feb 5, 2011 4:11 am ((PST)) Hi Bruce, I went through the exact same steps and frustrations with my Monster Mill upgrade. Then I decided to ask Tim at A2Z how to do it. Basically, he said we're doing things in the wrong order. Step 1 is to run the DTI in the spindle up and down against a machinist square (you need to do this for both X and Y) and shim the Z column at the base to get the spindle running up and down evenly along the square. I made a simple mod to my Z column with photos in the Ken's Monster Mill Enhancements photo section. Basically, it uses adjustment screws instead of shims, which I find easier. The four holes in the center are oversized to let the original Z column bolts pass through. The four screws at the corners are tapped to replace the need for shims. Obviously, you need to slightly loosen the four large screws to make adjustments and then retighten them. Step 2 is to sweep an arc with the DTI. This time you shim the spindle mount to the Z column to correct any errors. Tim says that A2Z will soon offer an improved spindle mount to make this easier. I've asked how it works but haven't received a response yet. What I'm hoping is that it will have adjustment screws like you'd find on a CNC router, that allow you to adjust the tilt and nod without the need for shims. My mill is "close enough" right now for the type of parts I'm making, but I intend to get the new spindle mount when it's available from A2Z and square everything up properly. Ken ------- Re: ARRRRRgghhhh! Mill Tramming/Alignement Posted by: "timgoldstein" timgx~xxktmarketing.com Date: Sun Feb 6, 2011 11:23 am ((PST)) Our recommended sequence is: First, get the column so it is square to the table. We recommend shims under the column as this adjustment is subject to lots of force and shims don't come out of adjustment. Basic process: Put a square on the table and move the Z saddle up and down the length of its travel. If it is not staying the exact same distance from the edge of the square, then you shim the column to adjust. The best material for the shims is brass shim stock. Many (most) model airplane hobby stores carry a brass shim pack by K&S Metals that gives you a range of thicknesses in 4" x 8" or so sheets. Large machine tool supply houses like MSC offer shim stock packs in larger sheets. It is really a must have in any shop. The shim goes between the bottom of the column base and the top of the Y base. Loosen the screws attaching the column to the base, slide in the shim, tighten the screws. Now check again. Repeat as needed. Once you put in a known thickness shim on the first try, you will now know how much a given shim thickness will move the column and you should be able to nail it by the second try. Now you want to align the spindle centerline to be perpendicular to the table. This is where you either sweep an indicator that is mounted in the spindle or use your fly cutter. You can rotate the head by removing the key stock that locks it in place. To make this easier, we have introduced our new HSRS1AA Angle Adjuster for Sherline. It is fitted to the headstock spacer and can be retrofitted on either our 2.2" headstock spacer or onto a factory Sherline 1" headstock spacer. So it can help with any Sherline mill. The HSRS1AA Angle Adjuster is used without the keyway stock in place. It has 2 oval point set screws that allow you to easily and accurately fine tune the alignment of the headstock relative to the column. It uses (3) 10-32 tapped holes on the headstock spacer to mount it. So quite easy to retrofit. Going forward, all our 2.2" headstock spacers will ship with the angle adjuster included. You can see a rendering of it on a headstock spacer at: www.a2zcorp.us/LiteratureFiles/Sherline2_2HeadstockRiseComplete.pdf You can see the hole pattern needed on the headstock spacer at: www.a2zcorp.us/LiteratureFiles/HSRS1AA_HeadstockRiser_AdjusterMou ntHoleDrawing.pdf If those links are not working, just go to: www.A2ZCorp.us and click on the Product Literature button and look for the angle adjuster. The angle adjusters are in stock and ready to ship. They will be on a 1 week coupon sale that will be going out to our e-mail list on Feb 9 or 10. If you are not on the list you can sign up at: www.a2zcorp.us/Newslettersignup.asp Thanks, Tim Goldstein A2Z Corp A2Z CNC division 3955 S Mariposa St Englewood CO 80110 720 833-9300 Toll Free 877 754-7465 www.A2ZCorp.us/store USA made accessories for desktop mills & lathes. Specialized No Mar tools for the jewelry industry. ------- Re: Evolution of a Set-Up [sherline] Posted by: "Tom & Judy Bank" trbank1x~xxverizon.net Date: Thu Apr 7, 2011 11:13 am ((PDT)) If you are worried about clamps scratching your tooling plate, go to the drug store and get a pack of Dr. Sholl's "Moleskin." Cut little squares and wrap them around the bottom of the L clamps. You can tighten the clamps down all you want. They will hold their position and not scratch. Furniture and craft stores sell a similar product, a thin dense felt with an adhesive back, but theirs is usually dark brown or green, sometimes in pre-punched circles (not as good). Regards, Tom Bank ------- [Posted to atlas_craftsman group, but videos use Sherline equipment.] Re: Gear Cutters Posted by: "Bruce Freeman" freemab222x~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Apr 15, 2011 9:37 pm ((PDT)) For what it's worth, these videos are interesting: http://www.youtube.com/user/Hobbynut [There are several videos in this series, so use links at youtube to find all of them made by Hobbynut.] ------- NOTE TO FILE: I checked out the video Bruce suggested and found it was just one of many videos made by Hobbynut on youtube (Shorty Leatherwood) with web address: Shortyleatherwoodx~xxyahoo.com and home site: www.leatherwoodplayground.com To save you a bit of time, I have posted the links here (in order) of a series Shorty made about making gears on a Sherline lathe and mill. Don't be put off by the "CNC" in the title. Every gear can be done on manual machines but will just take a bit more time. And you can do this on any make of metal lathe and mill (or lathe with milling attachment). These videos are an excellent teaching aid. And lots of tips and tricks along the way that will help you on other machining projests. Sherline CNC Gear Cutting Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MItgd-faHFw&feature=related Sherline CNC Gear Cutting Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQGAK06JLQg&feature=related Sherline CNC Gear Cutting Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBMRJ_K14IA&NR=1 Sherline CNC Gear Cutting Part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ETcZLJrWXE&feature=related Sherline CNC Gear Cutting Part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62ymeJ0l9VM&feature=related And here is his excellent series on making homemade hobs. These things were always a bit of a mystery to me as I have never seen one in person, and book explanations were less than clear. Now they make sense. Thanks! Home made Gear cutting Hobs on my Sherline (part 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMS2un-kbg0 Home made Gear cutting Hobs part2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykSOOXww0U0 Using W1 water hardening drill rod for the hob. Home made Gear cutting Hobs part3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqnqswBl6HA Home made Gear cutting Hobs part4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UBxNPbg0ls Home made gear cutting hobs part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bfJ_ARfP4I Home made gear cutting hobs part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NebcXM-nZk4 Home made gear cutting hobs Conclusion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCUO-JkdxAo And a quick update for this last hob series. Hob vid Correction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFrc90Nzmio&feature=related ------- [Cutting model engine cylinder cooling fins with mill and rotary table.] Re: Digital Read Out [sherline] Posted by: "n2562001" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:55 am ((PDT)) "mandjsstuff" wrote: > I'm trying to increase my accuracy with my Sherline. One project that's challenging me is to make a 1:12 scale model of a Harley V-twin's cylinders. This requires several fins spaced and cut to depth evenly. I've could manually mark these using the hand wheels, adapt a caliper to this, or use Sherline's digital read out. Any suggestions? Thanks, Mike < Mike: Been down this road many times. Simple is always best. First the Harley engine. Most fins on a Harley engine are actually tapered with the large part next to the cylinder. There are two issues if duplicating this on a scale engine. First the fins do not have the proper appearance in scale in that they look more like a solid mass. Second, if used as functional fins, the fins cool better in scale if they are not tapered. This makes the whole job much simpler. Next, Harley fin spacing is not consistent. However again good news. If evenly spaced in scale, they look more natural when compared to the full size engine. Full size spacing at the outer tip normally runs somewhere between .190" - .215". For 1/12th scale I would suggest .015" - .017". Accurate machining of the fins only requires a rotary table and a recent production Mill. First, mount the rotary table flat on the Mill bed. The R/T can be either manual or CNC. Mount the cylinder in the vertical position. Next, mount a high quality slitting saw of the proper fin spacing in the spindle. It is important that no more saw blade be exposed from the holder than is required to do the job. Next engage the rear "Z" axis lock just tight enough to allow resistance turning of the hand wheel. When the lock is held in this position when making adjustments, you remove all backlash in the "Z" making adjustments almost micrometer accurate. This now allows highly accurate hand wheel adjustments for fin spacing. From this point you can bring the rotating slitting saw against the cylinder blank while rotating the rotary table. Personally I operate the saw at about 500 RPM for saws about 1" in diameter with plenty of cutting fluid. I will post an example of cylinder/head fin machining done with this procedure under my name in the photo section. Jerry Kieffer ------- need er16 collet (advise needed) [sherline] Posted by: "Aykut" aykut.canturkx~xxgmail.com Date: Sat Aug 6, 2011 5:08 pm ((PDT)) Dear friends... I want to buy a 3mm ER16 collet and its "holder" (I don't know what it is called, maybe shank as I saw on ebay) for my sherline 5400 mill. Can you tell me what should buy? What is the "real" name of this collet holder, so I can search on ebay? Can you suggest me any internet site? What do you use? Any specs so I buy correct product? thanks ------- Re: need er16 collet (advise needed) Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Sat Aug 6, 2011 7:35 pm ((PDT)) Hi Aykut, I bought mine from CTC Tools. They have an eBay store. Look for MT1 shank to fit our machine. An alternative is the ER16 adapter from Taig. It comes with 3/4-16 threads but you need to buy the collet closer. You'll also have to trim off about 3mm from the back to allow more threads to engage. I bought mine from Nick Carter. Regards, Wong ------- Re: need er16 collet (advise needed) Posted by: "jerry kieffer" jlkiefferx~xxcharter.net Date: Sat Aug 6, 2011 8:09 pm ((PDT)) Aykut: If by chance this assembly is to hold an endmill or other cutting tool you may want to reconsider. For maximum accuracy, stability and capacity of cutting tools in a small mill such as a Sherline, you will want to hold the cutting edge of the tool as close to the spindle nose as possible. This can be done using Sherline's 3 mm MT mill collet P/N 3092. http://www.sherline.com/3060inst.htm ER-16 adaptors extend the holding position making the cutting tool far less stable than desirable in many cases. In addition the large ER-16 closing nut obstructs critical cutting vision on small cutting tools with 3 mm shanks. Jerry Kieffer ------- Re: Sheline mill top slide hardness?? [sherline] Posted by: "lhbakeland" digitaltorquex~xxaol.com Date: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:10 pm ((PDT)) "Ben" wrote: > I have my new 2000 mill here and I have used it for only a few weekends, to make some toolholders. I know is is made of Aluminium and I am sooo careful with cleaning the chips away etc but I just noticed last night that there are heaps of dents and dings on the top of the top slide already. I looks like the slide was hit with something in places. How utterly disapointing:-( I am assuming that it is because of the mill vice and indexing attachments clamping down onto the bed? I am not sure though. Is this normal to happen and is there something I can do to prevent this from happening? < My solution is a little different than most anyone, here. I've made wide base holddown clamps for the vise and everything else out of 7075 aluminum, which is a lot more compatible than the steel clamps that "dig" into the milling table. Likewise, I've used and tried both the OEM and A2Z "t"slot nuts. I knew that there was something better, so I made mine at least 5/8 inch long and out of 7075 aluminum. This way, I will not likely "bulge" the top of the "T" slot or mar the top upper surface. If I do use anything like a vise made of iron or steel, I rub my fingers over the bottom and make sure that it's smooth, clean and without burrs. I love the aluminum accessories and "T"nuts. I will NEVER go back to the "steel" stuff. ------- Re: Sheline mill top slide hardness?? Posted by: "lhbakeland" digitaltorquex~xxaol.com Date: Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:18 pm ((PDT)) "alenz" wrote: > Tom, I have `heard' (wouldn't know from personal experience) that you can paint over that Smile with a magic marker and it won't show in a photo that you might want to post. Al < Better and more durable and just a cheap is "black fingernail polish" with a brush in the cap. Birchwood Casey, also makes a black paint pen that they call "Super Black." It's available at gun shops and dealers like Cabelas or Bass Pro. I ordered mine from Sportsman's Guide. ------- Re: Sheline mill top slide hardness?? Posted by: "alenzx~xxbellsouth.net" alenzx~xxbellsouth.net Date: Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:59 pm ((PDT)) I mentioned a magic marker because we all probably have one within arm's reach. I have also used black fingernail polish. Either one tends to cover blemishes (somewhat) in a photo. But both look horrible to the naked eye. Obviously a rather nasty/ugly touch up, (at least in my case). I have a gut feeling that the gunsmith crowd wouldn't put up with either and will have a far better product. Next time I go by the Bass shop I will definitely pick up some Supper Black. Thanks for the info. Al ------- Tramming - What could be wrong? [sherline] Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:20 am ((PDT)) I've been rather frustrated with tramming of my mill. There must be something wrong with what I did though I followed Sherline's instruction step by step. Today, I borrowed the Traminator (from Edge Technology. The one with 2 DIs mounted) from a friend to see if that would help. The one I made gave rather weird reading so I thought maybe a commercially made one would shed some light. After playing with the engineer's square to setup the base, running an indicator up and down on both the x and y front, I setup the traminator (with the calibration instruction done). Along x, I adjusted till I get both side to be of the same reading and did the same along y. When I turned the traminator around facing the back, from the mirror, it read about 0.001" off. I did the same on the y axis (did the adjustments with the DIs facing right) with the DIs facing left this time, I was off by almost 0.002". These readings seem ok but what I don't understand is, why the different readings when the DIs were facing the front vs facing back? I made a small mark using felt tip on where the reading was taken when facing front and make sure the tip of the indicator is at the same spot when I turn the traminator around. Anyone can help explain? Regards, Wong ------- Re: Tramming - What could be wrong? Posted by: "Jim Ash" ashcanx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:52 am ((PDT)) I'm guessing here, and maybe someone with greater knowledge than I can come to the rescue. But: I'm picturing four points in space; the two where the DTI's touch the table, and two along the mill axis, one where the axis would intersect the table, and another one up high, say where the bearings are. All four points should be on the same plane, but I'm guessing they're not, and the table has a slight tilt to it. Did you have to move your table to contact the same points when you turned it around on either axis? Jim Ash ------- Re: Tramming - What could be wrong? Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:27 am ((PDT)) Hello Jim, Thanks for your reply. I don't have to move the table with the traminator I borrowed. I suspected the same thing when using my homemade "traminator". So I borrowed the real thing from a friend who bought it. The tool does "draw" the same circle with the 2 DI's tip (from the faint mark on the glass plate I use which has plenty finger and palm prints. Regards, Wong ------- Re: Tramming - What could be wrong? Posted by: "JERRY G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:11 am ((PDT)) Parallax Error? Jerry G (Glickstein) P.S. Do you always rotate in the same direction? CW or CCW? Is the Z locked? ------- Re: Tramming - What could be wrong? Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:35 pm ((PDT)) Chief, I do hope it's parallax error. Will rotate the spindle with the 2 DIs affect its reading? Tell me more about this. Z was locked by squeezing the backlash brass nut. Regards, Wong ------- Re: Tramming - What could be wrong? Posted by: "Ken Condal" kencondalx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:50 am ((PDT)) Wong, I have a similar discrepancy from time to time. Since it's .001" over a 6 inch span, I tend not to worry about it. My guess is that it's a slight amount of run-out in the spindle. Does that sound plausible? Ken ------- Re: Tramming - What could be wrong? Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:36 pm ((PDT)) Ken, Mmmm... spindle run-out might be likely cause. Regards, Wong ------- Re: Tramming - What could be wrong? Posted by: "Mark Skansberg" mskansbergx~xxhotmail.com Date: Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:45 am ((PDT)) Wong, Do you get the same results when measuring at different points on the table? Do you always tram the column at the same points on the table? On a dual indicator measuring tool, are both indicators exactly the same height from an exactly flat reference table? Are they exactly vertical? Are they exactly in line with each other and the actual (not theoretical) centerline of the vertical shaft that is held in the spindle? Is the spindle exactly centered? Like Ken said, a bit of run-out in a spindle is common (depending on how precisely you measure it, there is always run-out). Even if your mill is exactly square to the table, how are you going to hold the work? In a vice? On parallels? Now you have introduced more variables that can throw the accuracy off no matter how well you trammed the mill. I recently had to cut a keyway in a steel shaft and, in spite of all my best efforts at alignment, the keyway was .002 deeper at one end. Finally it occurred to me to measure the diameter of the shaft at each end of the keyway. Sure enough, it was made with an unintended taper at the end where the keyway was located. The ends of the shaft were the same diameter, so the shaft was level afterall. But level was wrong. My point is that there are no absolutes, don't beat yourself up trying for more tool accuracy than you need. Consistancy is more important than perfect alignment. If you are always .001 high on one end of travel, you can compensate for that. The emphasis should be on the work accuracy. Take a shallow test cut. Measure, adjust positioning of the part as needed, and try again. You can often compensate for a bit of tool innacuracy with a bit of work holding alignment. It can be a lot less expensive, too. Mark in Wyoming ------- Re: Tramming - What could be wrong? Posted by: "JERRY G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net jerry_glickstein Date: Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:17 pm ((PDT)) Wong, My honest opinion.... Put the DTI's away and make chips.... Use your results to fine tune your machine.... Best regards, Jerry G ------- Re: Tramming - What could be wrong? Posted by: "imserv1" imservx~xximsrv.com Date: Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:14 pm ((PDT)) Did you take multiple readings in both positions? Many indicators that have .001 graduations will not accurately repeat to the minimum graduation. Loose tips and mounts, worn barrels, sleepy springs, worn racks, etc can also contribute to misleading readings. 10 to 1 for resolution to accuracy should let you define the error within an acceptable range so that you are confident that you have trammed in the machine as well as possible. Another point, is there any flex in your setup? If you pull on one side or the other of the tramomatic, does it return to the same reading? How much flex is there? Remember with the long lever arm to the indicator points, that your spindle flex will be magnified. You may also want to check for any difference between cold bearings and warmed up. Fred Smith - IMService http://www.imsrv.com ------- Re: Tramming - What could be wrong? Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:18 am ((PDT)) Fred: Thanks. I'll check the points you mentioned tomorrow. Regards, Wong ------- Re: Tramming - What could be wrong? Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:15 am ((PDT)) Hi Chief, I was away for the past 2 days. Just got home a couple of hours ago. Sorry for not being able to reply earlier. I wanted to try tramming as I flycut but it does seem to be easy to do so. When I release the spacer to adjust the spindle by putting in aluminum shim for the nod, I'll be out of alignment on the x/y tilt. The A2Z adjuster can be used to adjust the tilt of the spacer but I do not have the adjustment for "fine tuning" on the spindle which is mounted to the spacer. Maybe I should remove the spacer and mount the spindle directly onto the saddle. When tightening down the bolt after seemingly correct adjustments, the adjustments moved. I tried tightening bit by bit and even "offset" the adjustment to have it back to zero when tightening. All seem good at that point. But when I cut, I still encounter ridges in y axis. x is only out by about 0.01mm to 0.02mm, which is ok. I'm going to start over again tomorrow Will report what I get. Regards, Wong ------- Re: Tramming - What could be wrong? Posted by: "Alan" alanhyx~xxlive.com Date: Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:38 pm ((PDT)) Wong: If the glass you are using has a taper you could get queer results. To check the glass, tram to zero in X and then, with the spindle kept from turning, turn the piece of glass around carefully while checking the readings. If the glass has true parallel faces the reading will remain constant no matter the orientation of the glass. Alan ------- Re: Tramming - What could be wrong? Posted by: "wongsterwish" wongsterwishx~xxyahoo.com.sg Date: Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:00 pm ((PDT)) Thanks Alan. The last I checked (last year) it is ok. I'll check again. Regards, Wong ------- Fw: Before We Tram / Vertical Mill Posted by: "Jerry Glickstein" shipmodelmaker1931x~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:02 pm ((PDT)) Forwarded Message ----- From: shipmodelmaker1931 To: shipmodelmaker1931 Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 12:56 AM Subject: Re: Before We Tram / Vertical Mill In GlickModelShopx~xxyahoogroups.com, "shipmodelmaker1931" wrote: > A base upon which is a dovetail slide that runs fore and aft. > Let us call it the Y axis. > A saddle that rides the fore and aft slide. > A tapered gib between the bearing surfaces to take up wear and > remove most play. > At right angles and an integral part of the saddle is another dovetail slide. > For the X axis table. > A table that rides the dovetail and also has a tapered gib for the same purpose as above. > Mounted on the base to hold the upright column is a mounting block. > The upright column has a dovetail slide. > A saddle rides the upright slide and also has a tapered gib. > On the saddle is a headstock which carries the spindle and its bearings. > The upright movement is known as the Z axis. > Here are three points that must be controlled to properly insure that the relationship and alignment will produce accurate parts..... > Before we attempt to tram the mill, all three axes ( plural) > should be smooth moving, no binding, no slop. > How to do this? > Bolt the block to the base solidly. > Bolt the column to the block just as solidly. > Hang a DTI or DI to read each machine element. > Test with light hand pressure only. > Isolate. > Wiggle the Y saddle. > CW and CCW > Adjust the gib until almost all the play is taken up. > Adjust the back lash to maintain the Sherline specs or better. > Now, the X axis table is brought into play ( pun intended :) > Lock the Y axis saddle. > Read the table's sides for play. > DTI or DI at the ends of the table > Front and back, not the ends. > Gently twist CW and CCW. > Take out almost all of the play. > Adjust the end play with the back lash mechanism. > Turn your attention to the Z axis. > Hang a DTI or DI to read the Z axis saddle. > Same test regarding the gib. > Headstock should be secured firmly to the saddle. > After all those preliminaries are done, get a really > flat parallel piece of plate glass to bridge the table slots to start > tramming. > A large inner race from a ball bearing is also a good thing to use for bridging the table slots. > Or the hard drive plates that have been mentioned. > The idea is to prevent shock to the DTI or DI, which is a > precision instrument. > Paper and pencil, or pen,or crayon to document your trials.... > Comments? > Questions? > Jerry G ------- [SherlineCNC] How to secure/release tools involving the bolt (e.g. fly cutter, dri Posted by: "t3oterpc9191y" t3oterpc9191yx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 6:50 pm ((PDT)) It doesn't seem like it was officially stated anywhere in the instructions, and of course I have an idea of how to secure and release it, but what is the official way of doing it? I suppose you just secure the bolt which will pull the tool holder up the shaft and securing the tool. When releasing the tool you unscrew the bolt and tap it to release it. Right? How tight do you need to secure the tool? Also, how do you ensure the tool is aligned properly (e.g. tool axis parallel to shaft axis? ------- Re: How to secure/release tools involving the bolt (e.g. fly cutter, Posted by: "Ed Nisley" ed.08.nisleyx~xxpobox.com Date: Fri Sep 2, 2011 7:39 pm ((PDT)) That's the Official Technique, but I always felt badly about hammering on the spindle bearings. Other folks build gorgeous pushers, but this hack job works fine for me: http://softsolder.com/2009/01/25/sherline-collet-extractor-pusher/ The trick is to get the little hole in the side lined up *exactly* with the little hole in the spindle. Ed http://softsolder.com ------- Re: How to secure/release tools involving the bolt (e.g. fly cutter, Posted by: "Ed Nisley" ed.08.nisleyx~xxpobox.com Date: Mon Sep 5, 2011 3:37 am ((PDT)) On Mon, 2011-09-05, Andy M wrote: > that tool looks very professional Some things look better in pictures than they do in person... [grin] The locking pin must be a very snug fit in the spindle hole. I eventually made a much bigger handle to hold the pin firmly in the proper position: http://softsolder.com/2011/03/12/sherline-collet-pusher-pin-holder/ That's a 3D printed part, but you could machine it from a plastic or aluminum slab. Highly recommended... Ed http://softsolder.com ------- Re: How to secure/release tools involving the bolt (e.g. fly cutter, Posted by: "Thayer Syme" thayerx~xxgryffinaero.com Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 11:05 am ((PDT)) Here is how I release anything mounted in the headstock. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SherlineCNC/photos/al bum/1803428617/pic/1274177821/view?picmode=&mode=tn&or der=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc Thayer ------- Re: How to secure/release tools involving the bolt (e.g. fly cutter, Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Sep 3, 2011 2:08 pm ((PDT)) Fortunately there are a number of ways to remove items from the headstock taper without resorting to hammering: http://www.sherline.com/tip14.htm http://www.sherline.com/tip15.htm http://www.sherline.com/tip33.htm Thayer has a variation which he has already referenced. Martin ------- 5400 X axis [sherline] Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Nov 9, 2011 11:26 am ((PST)) Before I tear everything apart to find out, can anybody tell me what secures the X axis "nut" (part #40890) on the 5400 mill? Is it a screw or set screw? Where is it located on the top or the bottom of the saddle? The X axis "nut" has come adrift on my mill and I'm wondering how to re secure it. Martin ------- Re: 5400 X axis Posted by: "Andy M" trumpy81x~xxoptusnet.com.au Date: Wed Nov 9, 2011 12:43 pm ((PST)) GDay All, Martin, I just checked. The top set screw is the Y-Axis, the X-Axis is on the bottom which means you'll have to pull the Y-Axis as well. Regards Andy M ------- Re: 5400 X axis Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Nov 9, 2011 1:35 pm ((PST)) Thanks Andy. This sounds like it's going to be fun and games. I'm going to have to think about A2Z lead screws if this is going to happen frequently. Martin ------- Re: 5400 X axis Posted by: "Andy M" trumpy81x~xxoptusnet.com.au Date: Wed Nov 9, 2011 2:15 pm ((PST)) GDay, Martin, a VERY SMALL drop of Loctite thread lock on the X-Axis nut and the set screw should solve any future problems. However, I don't think you'd be disappointed with the A2Z Precision lead screws. I'm not, even though I still haven't gotten to use them due to illness. Regards Andy M ------- Re: 5400 X axis Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Wed Nov 9, 2011 2:30 pm ((PST)) Hi Andy. What flavor A2Z lead screws did you get? 4 TPI, 5mm or something else? I'm sorry to hear you've not been in the best of health, here's to a speedy recovery. Martin ------- Re: 5400 X axis Posted by: "Steve Wan" stewanx~xxgmail.com Date: Wed Nov 9, 2011 6:21 pm ((PST)) Hi Martin. It's located below the saddle. The greatest headache when I had some last few cuts the set screw came loose. I have had this problem many times till I decided to change the whole mill base to a cross vise with stronger bigger leadscrews and handwheels. Now the Sherline mill base serves for long jobs and odd jobs while the cross vise for heavy cuts and general purpose milling. Soon I have another horizontal mill to take tough steel milling that will not flex yet all 3 mill bases share the same mill headstock, simply switching over each mill. Steve-S'pore ------- Re: 5400 X axis Posted by: "Alan" alanhyx~xxlive.com Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:27 am ((PST)) Martin: You may want to use a dab of a threadlocker on the setscrew when you reinstall it. I've been using alcohol lately to degrease before this kind of installation. Alan ------- Re: 5400 X axis Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:42 am ((PST)) Hi Alan. Thanks for the tip. I've torn everything down and reassembled it with a tiny amount of Loctite on both the thread of the setcrew and the end of the setcrew where it bears on the nut. I"m not sure how that happened but I suspect vibration shook the retaining screw loose and then too heavy a cut moved the nut along the leadscrew. It wasn't an easy undertaking to restore things. Martin ------- Mill as Vertical Lathe [sherline] Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 1:31 pm ((PST)) See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sherline/photos/album/937902184/pic /982622488/view Turning a 6 inch gear blank. Next up -- cutting the teeth and spoking. David Clark in Southern Maryland, USA ------- Re: Mill as Vertical Lathe Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:48 pm ((PST)) "R.L. Wurdack" wrote: > David, Is that white ABS? Dick Hi Dick, Yes. McMaster-Carr PN 8586K14 Two sheets stacked. It's a nice ivory color. This will be the calendar wheel of an orrery I've just gotten started on. More to come. DC ------- Re: Mill as Vertical Lathe Posted by: "a3sigma" dcclark111x~xxcomcast.net Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:35 pm ((PST)) Pierre Coueffin wrote: > Which model mill is that? I'm pretty sure that the clearance if I > tried that with my mill would be exactly the same as with the lathe... Good point, I should have included a side view to show the differences. It's a 2000 to which I've attached a 5400 column base on riser blocks. The additional clearance vs a conventional 5400 or lathe is provided by 3/4" between the Z axis column bed and the column base and a 2-1/4" headstock riser block. With a conventional 2000, of course, you can put the headstock out anywhere over the working area. At the moment, I've got the mill reconfigured to cut the teeth on the large wheel. I'll post some photos of that operation tomorrow, and when I'm back to my usual config, I'll add a side view of the turning setup. DC ------- Re: Mill as Vertical Lathe Posted by: "Pierre Coueffin" pcoueffinx~xxgmail.com Date: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:46 pm ((PST)) That makes sense... I think mine's a 5000, but it is so old it has brass ways and bare aluminum handwheels. If I want more turning capacity, I usually turn the headstock 90 degrees, and take *very* light cuts. Lately, I try to drill a hole through the middle of the work piece and use a drawbar when doing that sort of stunt. ------- What kind of runout should I expect to see [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "James" sdrc92126x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:05 am ((PDT)) I've just gotten to the point where I'm starting to care about this stuff (after ignoring it for years). I broke a small endmill and upon close examination noticed that my jacob's chuck had a very noticable wobble. I put a TDI on the spindle and get a reading of ~0.001"-2" on the inside. A mill in the endmill holder gets less the 0.0005" on the shank. I also just got an ER16 (micromark) holder and see maybe 0.003"-4" right at the end of the collet. I guess my questions are, is the acceptable (or should I say expected. If not, is there anything I can do about it, eg, replacing the headstock, replacing the spindle, filling down the collet, etc. I should also mention that I dropped the collet holder with a bit in it and accept that I could have ruined it and will probably get another. I'm not a machinist, but I've been playing with this on and off for a few years and have been trying to learn as much as I can lately. I'm not really sure where measurements are taken (inside the spindle, outside, on the threads, on the chucked part, 1" below the chucked part, etc.). The ER16 sticks out a couple of inches below the spindle, so I'm sure this is adding substantial error. Thanks for any information. j ------- Re: What kind of runout should I expect to see Posted by: "Eric" buckeyevsx~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:49 pm ((PDT)) Drill chucks should not be expected to have low run out. They should also not be used in milling operations because of this, and they don't hold as rigid against side forces. If a cutter in a collet held in the spindle is < 0.0005 then that sounds pretty good. Try this instead of an endmill holder. Your "on the spindle" reading is bad, but contradicts the measured run out of the holder held tool, which is the important thing. As for the ER collet chuck, there is a lot that could be going on here to result in that much run out. Dirt/chips/damage between the collet and chuck can cause all kinds of degree of run out. Dirt between the spindle and collet chuck is another possibility. Then there is quality. I don't have one and can't speak on that or give comparison values. Measuring inside the spindle gives you an idea of its condition. However, measuring a tool shank in the holding condition and measuring at the collet and a distance away from the collet (while marking high indicated point in each spot) will give you a good picture of the error. If in line and of equal value then it is simple run out likely in the spindle. If not then it is possible that a poor quality collet is the cause, or damage/ debris causing the run out. Eric ------- Re: What kind of runout should I expect to see Posted by: "heavyside1" ttyfatx~xxyahoo.com Date: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:21 pm ((PDT)) I get 0.01-0.02mm runout measuring outside the spindle. I think they are rated for 0.01mm runout for the low RPM spindles. Their higher RPM spindles have higher runout. Then again, the spindle OD might only be fabricated to 0.01mm precision even if it is concentric to the shaft. I think the fact his end mill had lower runout is because it is threaded on, whereas the intenal taper of the spindle holds collets, and that can have a different runout than the threaded part of the spindle for end mill holders. Entirely based on geometry, the actual runout can be much worse than these values measured close to the spindle assembly, especially if the tool extends a certain length. The best way is probably to increase preloading of your spindle, then lathing a holder in place inside the spindle, so that it remains axially aligned. It's the same technique people use to machine holders using soft jaws for holding parts. ------- Re: What kind of run out should I expect to see Posted by: "alighazizadeh" alighazizadehx~xxaol.com Date: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:40 pm ((PDT)) Hi. If you are getting a true 0.01 ~0,02 mm run out at the work piece, then I would be inclined to leave it alone and call it quits, quite happily. This class of machinery is not designed to be a tool room lathe or mill with a tolerance of 0.005 mm and the operator should learn to work around these limitations. I have spent enough time chasing after the unattainable 0.01mm run out, so please don't waste your time doing so. If I make a simple comparison, I used to have a small photographic business in my younger days. I could not tell you how much time and money I wasted chasing after the last ounce of resolution that an emulsion and developer combination could provide, even more so in these digital age, and all quite irrelevant to the end result. Many people claim to have 0.01 mm run out with the stock Sherline 3 or 4 jaws chucks, a very tall order if you consider that the Sherline spindle has about 0.01 mm of run out itself before you get into the errors of the mounting flange and the chuck. Perhaps their machines are manufactured differently to mine. Regards, A.G ------- Problem with 2000 mill and 3/8" cutters [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "kerickson" kaericksonx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:33 am ((PDT)) I was trying to use my 2000 mill with the 3/8" cutters. None of my 3/8" cutters would fit from the bottom. I had to remove the tool holder and insert a cutter from the back side. None of the double-ended cutters would fit at all, only the single-ended ones would fit and those took some work to get them inserted. Is this normal? I measured the dia of cutters and all appeared to be 0.3750 (3/8"). The tool holder diameter also appears to be 0.3750 (3/8"). I would have thought that the tool holder would have a slightly larger diameter to allow minimual problems with insertion/removal. Is this something I need to call Sherline about? ------- Re: Problem with 2000 mill and 3/8" cutters Posted by: "Andy M" trumpy81x~xxoptusnet.com.au Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:22 am ((PDT)) GDay All, kerickson, I'm surprised that your cutters' shanks actually measure .375 in. Most of my 3/8 cutters measure 0.373" to .3745". I have yet to find one bang on .375. Mind you, I'm only measuring the shank not the actual cutting end. In any case, having the cutter a tight fit in the holder is desirable as it reduces the likelihood of runout. IE: Wobble of the endmill after it is tightened in the holder. For the cutters that don't fit, I would recommend purchasing one or more endmill holders and then reaming the new holders to fit the other endmills. Again, this will help keep runout to an absolute minimum and have the added benefit of not having to mess about re-fitting endmills into the holder, just change the holder and endmill in one go, easy! In my experience though, things usually go the other way for me. My Sherline holders are a slip fit, tending to be a little loose rather than too tight. In most cases they have been acceptable though. I did purchase a number of blank tool holders for just such occasions and for other custom sized tooling as well. A2Z have blank holders at reasonable prices as do Sherline, or you can simply 'roll your own' ;) Is this a normal problem with Sherline? I'd have to say yes, but it's not always Sherline's fault as they don't actually make the endmills. Tolerances have to be considered here also. Some companies produce consistent tolerances and others don't. Sherline are fairly consistent though. It could also be a case of those endmills were made on a Friday afternoon ... lol HTH Regards Andy M ------- Re: Problem with 2000 mill and 3/8" cutters Posted by: "kerickson" kaericksonx~xxearthlink.net Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:00 am ((PDT)) Andy, Do you know the Sherline pn (part number) for the endmill tool holder? I was looking through the online docs and could not find it. ------- Re: Problem with 2000 mill and 3/8" cutters Posted by: "Tom Wade" tomx~xxwade.name Date: Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:20 am ((PDT)) http://www.sherline.com/3079inst.htm http://www.sherline.com/3079pg.htm The two pages listed above cover all of Sherline's end mill holders... Tom Wade ------- Simple turning on Mill? [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Sam Marrocco" SMarroccox~xxringsidecreative.com Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:49 am ((PDT)) I've been doing some small learning projects on my 5400 Mill, working to get the feel of cutting aluminum and gradually doing more CNC as I converted my mill to steppers. Occasionally I have need of some turning -- taking down a 2-3" long 1 inch diameter square aluminum rod or round rod down to 1/2", and have been doing this by mounting my rotary table horizontally on the X-Axis table and end-milling left and right, rotating the table each pass, then lowering the Z after a complete rotation. It works very well but it obviously very time consuming (about 3-5 minutes per "layer" of metal removed). A Lathe would be an obvious choice here, but that is not an option for me right now. If I were to mount my four-jaw chuck in the spindle, could a Lathe toolholder be placed on the X-Axis T-Slots in a manner that would allow proper turning of short stock? At first glance, it would seem that a Sherline Lathe toolholder could fit, but would be 90 degrees clockwise from how you would want it to strike the stock. can the tool itself be rotated properly within the toolholder, or is there a proper X-axis table - to - something adapter for this type of operation? sam marrocco | chief technical officer http://ringsidecreative.com/ ------- Re: Simple turning on Mill? Posted by: hlcmpbllx~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:50 pm ((PDT)) Turn the head 90 degrees. The X axis becomes long axis and Y axis to control the size. I have seen several clips of people doing this. Hal ------- Re: Simple turning on Mill? Posted by: "Thayer Syme" thayerx~xxgryffinaero.com Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 2:01 pm ((PDT)) Sam, I've done exactly as you propose and it works quite well. I usually just clamp the tool on its side in my vise. Note that I have milled the jaws of my vise to give a permanent parallel effect which helps hold the tool. To center on the part, I just indicate on the tool tip and then offset as appropriate. You can see it happening at the start of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4gAIdgHU74 Thayer ------- Re: Simple turning on Mill? Posted by: "Sam Marrocco" SMarroccox~xxringsidecreative.com Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:06 pm ((PDT)) Thayer, I hadn't considered using the vise to hold the tool...I can see why you might mill the vise jaws to hold it better. It's an excellent idea and worth a try for my shorter aluminum parts. Thanks for the suggestion! ------- Re: Simple turning on Mill? Posted by: "jowhowho" jowhowhox~xxyahoo.com Date: Fri Aug 30, 2013 6:17 pm ((PDT)) Lathes are more rigid than mills, and they have tail stocks. Two or three inches of 1/2" hanging out of a chuck unsupported is not a good idea on a lathe. It should be turned between centers, or at least it should be supported by a center opposite the chuck. On a mill, there is more play, and there is no tail stock. If you really want to go cheap, and not buy a lathe, you could buy a used lathe bed (no base, no headstock, no motor, no saddle, no cross slide, no threaded shaft) and bolt it to your mill table. Move your headstock and motor to the lathe bed, modify a tool post to go over the mill's headstock mounting pin, and you have a CNC lathe. Buy a used tailstock, and you can turn between centers. It won't be as rigid as a lathe, but it won't cost as much either. ------- Re: Rebuilding 5400 Mill [sherline] Posted by: "William Cox" wtcox_listx~xxcomcast.net wtcox_nj Date: Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:06 am ((PST)) Comments on the non-backlash items. [The backlash mods messages are in the text file here called Sherline Mill Backlash.] I'm nearly finished with a similar rebuild on an eBay-purchased mill, but it has the A2Z tables, original Sherline saddle, and messed-up leadscrews so I knew I had to replace them. You'll know the mill a lot better afterwards! bill On 2/12/14 10:38 AM, Mikey D wrote: > I've already started to tear it down. The column had significant rust > that I steel wooled off. It has a couple of areas with pitting. > > The X-Y table looks to have minimal use. The screws on the other hand > are coated in a rusty gunk. The table can be pristine but the screws worn out (and/or the nuts and the backlash mechanism). Remove the screws completely. Clean gently with a solvent (paint thinner works find) over a bucket, outside, using a BRASS brush, not a steel brush. You want the gunk off, not reshaped threads. As you remove the screws, remove and clean the backlash nuts, pointer, and its screw. Check end play with the in-the-saddle nuts in place - should be IMO not more than 0.010 or so, but I suspect that's pushing it. Oil the screws after cleaning - they'll rust almost instantly if you don't. If the screws are worn, replace them and all the nuts; if they're OK replace the nuts (my opinion again - belt and suspenders; it's all apart so do it). Removing the saddle nuts is a pain, I think, and hard to do non-destructively. But you've got the thing apart and the nuts are a few bucks each, so if the rest seems to be coming together it's likely worthwhile. The best reference I found was http://softsolder.com/2012/07/10/sherline-leadscrew-nut-removal/ with details on getting the saddle nuts out. Be sure to remove the setscrews. I used the suggested 19/64 transfer punch from a cheap Chinese set. Clean the saddle completely but non-abrasively. Saddles are expensive; if it's screwed up you can consider the oiling saddle (buy 50911 instead of 50911). Consider my separate post on updating the backlash mechanism. Finally, check all the gibs. Gibs are so inexpensive ($2.70) you should keep the two sizes in stock IMO and just add them to a larger order. > The headstock spindle also had rust that I was able to wire brush > away. Its not pitted but the inside of it still has a coating of rust. > It has adjustable hand wheels although I don't think they're laser > engraved. > I'd like to modify it to be a self oiler although that might not be > possible. I'm also uncertain about the value of trying to change the > backlash adjustment. > Mike ------- Work Aids [sherline] Posted by: "lawrence schneider" larry.schneider3x~xxverizon.net Date: Sun Mar 9, 2014 9:05 am ((PDT)) Jerry, A while ago you did a review of the "HIGHTECHSYS" plate with its various attachments. I've bought one. In terms an apprentice would understand, exactly how - and with what - did you attach it to the base on your mill? Thank you, larry ------- Re: Work Aids Posted by: "JERRY G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Sun Mar 9, 2014 10:49 am ((PDT)) Hi Larry, when I get a chance, I will find the plate, and try to give you an idea or two. Right now, my mills are tied up with other projects. ASAP. Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Work Aids Posted by: "William Cox" wtcox_listx~xxcomcast.net Date: Sun Mar 9, 2014 1:41 pm ((PDT)) Larry -- FYI; Jerry - Comments welcome -- I have the same tooling plate, and have been very pleased with it. The value to me is the perfectly aligned 10-32 holes that I've aligned to the mill X and Y axes. I attach it to the standard mill table (this one is on a 5000) with standard Sherline T-Nuts. (I'd use the longer A2Z ones were I resetting it - I have both in stock.) I then clamped a straight piece to the table against 10-32 screws in the holes; the holes are precise, but the edge of the plate is a bit rough. I then indicated the position (indicator in the mill spindle, locked to not rotate) and aligned the plate by tapping lightly with slightly loosened T-nuts until it was within a thousandth or so. The edge, as I recall, except for some surface roughness indicated the same. So I can put my accessories on the plate, screwed down, and know that I'm close to parallel/right angles to table movement. The clamping sets are a bit harder to use than I'd like, but I have never removed the plate - it's been on several years and it's just as good as when I first carefully adjusted it. bill ------- Re: Work Aids Posted by: chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net glicker31 Date: Sun Mar 9, 2014 2:12 pm ((PDT)) Hi Bill, Nice going. One question arises. Why didn't you mill the edges of the tooling plate? Jerry G ------- Re: Work Aids Posted by: "William Cox" wtcox_listx~xxcomcast.net Date: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:43 am ((PDT)) Jerry -- A good question. A not-quite-so-good answer: I didn't think of it; I've had good results with threaded studs (I buy the plain unplated 10-32 rod from Enco and cut to the lengths I needed) and clamping a bar against them. Next time I have some uniform thickness something (for me, usually acetal but I've also got a bunch of aluminum bar stock right now) to use as shims I'll do a skim cut; I'm always nervous about milling the table unintentionally. Thanks for the suggestion. It would indeed make a very useful plate even more useful. bill p.s. I like the HiTech plate because the hole spacing is closer and on half inch rather than 1 inch plus a bit boundaries. I wasn't aware of the extended A2Z table HiTech so I bought the A2Z, which alas has the Sherline spacing...maybe I should sell the unused A2Z? ------- Re: Work Aids Posted by: "lawrence schneider" larry.schneider3x~xxverizon.net Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:50 am ((PDT)) Bill, Great advice. I'm so new I didn't even think of "indicating" to get the plate aligned to the table x/y axis. I'm going to do that (order T-nuts from A2Z?). If my memory is correct, the photos that Jerry showed seemed to indicate a space under the tooling plate (above the mill table) large enough to attach clamps. Will the A2Z T-nuts establish that space or do you have another recommendation? Where's a good place to buy those clamps? Thanks again, larry ------- Re: Work Aids Posted by: wtcox_listx~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:24 am ((PDT)) The Sherline T-Nuts are fine - that's what I've used and it's been stable for years. I occasionally check for snugness but it's always fine. The A2Z have a broader base and may be an improvement if you over-torque. Jerry (as I recall) set his up with shims, perhaps fly-cut aluminum, to get that effect. The T-nuts wouldn't help as even with an extended post you need more bearing. You could do "thick washer" type cylinders at consistent length. I prefer more Z-axis room, and have never done that - I use the HiTech clamping system (bars and eccentric-head screws/buttons), as an adjunct to the Sherline 3013 of which I have two sets. ------- Re: Work Aids Posted by: "JERRY G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:10 pm ((PDT)) Hi Guys, just an insert. FYI; I always prefer to mount three 1" by 2" by 3" blocks on the Sherline X axis table, and then any tooling plate on the blocks. Costs me 1.0000" in Z, but saves me much time by allowing me to use Toolmaker's Parallel Clamps, instead of hold down straps, step blocks, 10-32 rods, etc. ( "Time is Money" :) Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Work Aids Posted by: "William Cox" wtcox_listx~xxcomcast.net Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:54 pm ((PDT)) Jerry -- The 123 block spacers are simpler than I thought; I'll try it. I've got three uncommitted 123 blocks right now, and a lot of parallel clamps that I can add to my repertoire. Larry -- Good question; I've learned a lot in this thread. Thanks! bill ------- Re: Work Aids Posted by: "JERRY G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net glicker31 Date: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:11 pm ((PDT)) Hi Bill/ Larry, one important piece of information. The 1/2/3 blocks that I used were * set up blocks. Because the hole patterns match the Sherline X Axis slots C/C. Try EBay. They are not cheap. The blocks, I mean. I also happened to have a few that I had made that were exact duplicates of the blocks. Ask my buddy, Steve W. about those blocks. Jerry G (Glickstein) * = Special Tool Company of Bridgeport, Connecticut. ------- 5400 mill - how to remove 3072 drill chuck please [sherline] Posted by: malcolm.alberryx~xxbtinternet.com Date: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:27 pm ((PDT)) Hi. I am a complete novice with machine tools, so need a bit of help please. I have removed the end mill holder that was fitted and attached the 3072 drill chuck and tightened the drawbar. Having finished drilling, I went to remove the drill chuck by removing the drawbar, but as all of you experts will know, the chuck apparently has a tapered end inserted into the 5400 shaft. I assumed that one could slack off the drawbar a couple of turns and give it a tap to loosen that taper, but no luck. I have only used a heavy solid rubber hammer - or should it be a regular metal one to give it a sharper tap? Being a novice, I am reluctant to hit things hard with the fear of doing damage or upsetting anything. How does one release the chuck from the 5400 please. Please help, as I need to use the end mill again BTW, are there any videos which show the basics of fitting and changing things please? Thanks in anticipation. Regards Malcolm in Linslade UK ------- Re: 5400 mill - how to remove 3072 drill chuck please Posted by: "Dave Hylands" dhylandsx~xxgmail.com dhylands_99 Date: Tue Jun 10, 2014 12:33 pm ((PDT)) Hi Malcolm. Normally, a few sharp knocks with a metal hammer will loosen things off. I created a small brass mallet for such things: http://davehylands.com/Machinist/Projects/Brass-Mallet/ But an even better solution (too late to help this time around, but perhaps for next time): http://davehylands.com/Machinist/Modifications/Taper-Removal/ For now, I'd just use a regular hammer with a metal head. Loosen off the drawbar a few turns, and give it light taps, increasing until you loosen. It really should just take a tap. Nothing like what's required to say drive a nail. Dave Hylands Shuswap, BC, Canada http://www.davehylands.com ------- Re: 5400 mill - how to remove 3072 drill chuck please Posted by: "Martin Dobbins" trainnutzx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:26 pm ((PDT)) Hi Malcolm. If a sharp tap as Dave suggests does not work, then you may have a get out of jail free card because the chuck screws onto the arbor which goes into the morse taper. Unscrew the chuck from the arbor with the help of the chuck key and put the chuck into the freezer until it is thoroughly chilled, put that back on the arbor and it should shrink the morse taper shank on the arbor to enable a sharp tap on the draw bar to release it. Dave's idea of releasing morse taper tooling with a nut which goes onto the spindle nose works very well but some people might argue that you could ruin the spindle nose threads this way, and you can't use that method for the smallest drill chuck. Beating on the spindle is not a good long term plan and there are many ideas out there to release the taper without resorting to percussion. I've tried a number of them and the one I use now is the gear puller idea shown on this guy's site: http://northbranchreels.com/2013/07/05/spindle-crank/ Good luck, Martin ------- Re: 5400 mill - how to remove 3072 drill chuck please Posted by: "Curt Givens" giveadurnx~xxyahoo.com Date: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:26 pm ((PDT)) Also, it doesn't take a lot of torque to tighten up the draw bar for any attachment. I've gone to using a nut driver and just finger tighten - no arm action on the nut driver. A couple taps with a rawhide mallet loosens things up. Regards, Curt ------- Re: 5400 mill - how to remove 3072 drill chuck please Posted by: "Tom & Judy Bank" trbank1x~xxverizon.net eimcr28 Date: Wed Jun 11, 2014 5:21 am ((PDT)) Malcolm, You may have over-tightened the drawbar in the first place. It doesn't need to be "really locked down." The recommendations from others cover what to do next. But beyond that, the same goes for clamping tool posts to the lathe cross slide and work pieces to the mill table. Both can be damaged by over- tightening Tee-nuts. Then again, NEVER use a hammer on a mill drawbar with an indicator (Dial Test Indicator, etc.) at the business end. Remove the indicator before tapping the drawbar to loosen the indicator holder. Learning that lesson cost me a $150.00 indicator! Regards, Tom Bank ------- Re: 5400 mill - how to remove 3072 drill chuck please Posted by: chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net glicker31 Date: Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:48 pm ((PDT)) Malcolm, heed Tom's advice. He speaks from experience. You have to like a guy who admits his mistakes to help others. In regard to the indicator fiasco. But, do not believe the album "Banks's Bunglings". In it, he exhibits some clever ideas. And inventive. Tom has been a member of my Glick Model Shop Group for a long time. And a frequent contributor. (Met him and his wife, Judy in 2005 when Henny and I drove West to his home.) Regards, Jerry G (Glickstein) (I have here somewhere a gear puller (sort of) unit to safely remove the Sherline draw bar without hammering, tapping, etc.) When I find it, I will post a photo or two. ------- Taig milling vise [sherline] Posted by: urmacher1x~xxyahoo.com Date: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:28 pm ((PDT)) Has anyone tried a Taig milling vise on the sherline mill? Their vise looks like it would give you a little more room between vise and spindle than the Sherline vise. Chuck ------- Re: Taig milling vise Posted by: "JERRY G" chieftoolmakerx~xxearthlink.net glicker31 Date: Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:43 pm ((PDT)) Yes, I have. That is exactly what it does. Jerry G (Glickstein) ------- Re: Taig milling vise Posted by: "Jeffrey Birt" birt_jx~xxsoigeneris.com Date: Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:15 am ((PDT)) I find myself using the Taig vise more often because it is lower profile. Some folks don’t like it because the moving jaw has a tendency to lift up while you tighten it. I put a allen key in the screw on top of the jaw and tighten it as am tightening the vise screw. That keeps the jaw from lifting and is not hard to do. I’ve produced a lot of high precision parts using the Taig vise so with a few minutes spent learning to use it I’m sure you can as well. Jeff Birt Soigeneris.com ------- Lathe turning tool in locked spindle [SherlineCNC] Posted by: "Sam Marrocco" SMarroccox~xxringsidecreative.com Date: Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:16 pm ((PDT)) I have some small threading operations that I need to perform on my cnc sherline mill. I use my own software to control the mill's axes. I do not have access to a lathe. I am considering the following setup: mounting my rotary table to the x- axis, parallel to the x axis leadscrew. This leaves me with mounting the thread cutting tool that would normally be on the y axis of the lathe in the spindle pointing down. Assuming I can lock my spindle from rotating, would turning using a lathe tool in the spindle potentially damage my spindle bearings or z-axis? I realize that my rotary table speed is severely limited in contrast with a spindle on a lathe, but I can live with the slower turni rate if it only involves time. A lathe is not an option right now. sam marrocco | chief technical officer ringsidecreative.com ------- Re: Lathe turning tool in locked spindle Posted by: "William Thomas" wthomasx~xxgfn.org tmw5763 Date: Sun Oct 12, 2014 8:28 pm ((PDT)) Hi Sam and All: How big a part do you need to thread. The Mill spindle is the same as the Lathe headstock. If the stock will fit in a collet or end mill holder you could just put a tool bit in the vise or on an angle plate (with clamps) and cut the threads using the "Z" axis as the normal lathe "Z" axis and the "X" axis as the normal lathe "X" axis. Or you can do like I did, buy a 3 jaw chuck for it. I hope this help!! GOD'S BLESSINGS Bill Thomas ------- Re: Lathe turning tool in locked spindle Posted by: "KM6VV" KM6VVx~xxSBCglobal.net km6vv Date: Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:07 pm ((PDT)) You don't need a rotary table, chuck the stock in the spindle (3 or 4 jaw chuck as needed), mount the tool on a block bolted to the ways, and move the cutting tool against the stock to cut. Just like on a lathe, but turned up on end. Alan KM6VV ------- Re: Lathe turning tool in locked spindle Posted by: "Stan Stocker" skstockerx~xxcomcast.net stanstocker Date: Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:44 am ((PDT)) Hi Sam, Take a look at thread milling if you have your backlash under control and adequately compensated. You can also use the mill as a vertical lathe as has already been suggested. Last but not least, sometimes it's just easier to go old school and use a tap and / or die, particularly if the quantity is low or if you have a tapping head for a drill press. Take care, Stan ------------------------------------------------------------------ This is just one of some 80 files about machining and metalworking and useful workshop subjects that can be read at: http://www.janellestudio.com/metal/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------